Anyone run Cat5 or Cat6 to their shop?

[Mitchell Andrus]

Having a tough time getting wireless to the studio, about 220' away from the house. We did get a good wireless connection with 2 routers set up as a 'bridge', but it's fiddly and fragile.

I'm thinking seriously about running a conduit and pulling CatX wire. "They" say up to 100 meters is acceptable but I have my doubts and getting a cable made just to test is expensive.

3G is $60.00/month or so. Ouch.

Anyone run more than a hundred feet?
.

[Graham Wintersgill]

Mitchell

This came up on another list I am on recently and someone uneartged this:

'd get some cat-5. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_5:-

"The maximum specified distance for Cat5 cable is 100m. This
allows for 10m of stranded cable at either end. Solid core has
less attenuation than stranded cable, so a switch-to-switch
link of solid cable, where the only connections are
cable-plug-switch at either end can be significantly longer
than 100m in practice. Experiments show that the practical
limit is around 200m for 100 Mb/s. 1000Mb/s is intermittent
at 200 m. These distances are partially dependent on the
individual switches."

And 100 metres is 328 feet.

Regards

[Mark Beall]

It's been a while, but I'm sure I've done runs that long and they are probably still in use today. If you can't do it yourself, there are places you can order custom cables. Just checking one place, www.cablesforless.com (I have no idea if they are decent or not, just randomly picked them based on a search) it was about $80 for a cable 250' long. Make sure that you get a cable made from solid, not stranded wire.

If you're really worried about it, you can run fiber instead. You'll need a converter on each side (quick look show them to be about $100 ea) and then the cable - priced a 100 meter one for $123. You can run fiber for miles.

I'd guess that every item I listed a price for could be found for less since I didn't really try that hard. Maybe someone else knows some good places to get deals (I don't really do this stuff anymore).

mark

[John Coloccia]

100m is no problem. It's a "limit" in the sense that radiation exposure guidelines have a "limit". You don't immediately die or start getting sick at that point, but if you're at that point or below, you're guaranteed to be OK.

All that said, there should be no problem getting wireless to work a mere 200ft. There are routers out there, like the Engenious, that are good for hundreds of METERS. The idea would be to setup a system where you have one of these in your shop and another in your house. I believe the term for this is "bridging", but my network terminology is a little rusty. You can probably set all this up for a few hours of research and maybe $200 in equipment if I had to guess. Also, no digging, no conduit etc.

That would be my suggestion. Stay away from BestBuy and lookup some of the better equipment out there. Call a dealer and ask them to make a recommendation.

[Jim Mattheiss]

Mitchell:

If you are going to make a run you shouldn't have a custom cable made. Buy a box of CAT-X cable and pull it thru the conduit. Terminate at both ends with a CAT-X Jack. You now now have a 1 jack patch panel in the shop.

CAT-5 - 1000 feet = $60.00 +/- (been a while since I priced this stuff)
CAT-5 Jacks - 2 x $10 (at Home Depot).

With a 1000 foot box you could pull 2 or 3 lengths thru the conduit - for future use or for a phone connection?

Have 1 jack near the router in the house and the other in a convenient spot in the shop. A patch cable from the router in the house into the jack. A patch cable in the shop to the computer or a wireless router.

The only issue you might encounter is related to the relative grounds of the 2 buildings and that causing issues. I'm no wiring guru but that would work.

The uber geek method would be to use fiber, since the relative ground issue goes away. Fiber ups the cost dramatically. . .

I wired my house with CAT-5 and have a number of wired devices in use around the house. Between the network printer, the Tivo, the kids pc, the music pc in the basement and the automation pc and my laptop when doing serious network intensive work. Everybody laughed at my network jacks in the dining room, but with no dedicated office the kids pc is there and I work from the dining room table occasionally.

Good luck

Cheers

Jim

[Jerome Stanek]

I have about 200 ft of cat 5 run out to my shop no problems. I did a trade show at an airport and the booth that I was at had about 599 ft uf cat 5 run to it and we had no problems with that distance in fact that is the cable that I used picked it up after the show.

[Matt Meiser]

With better antennas you should be able to do wireless no problem. There's tons of options on Ebay. A couple parabolic dish antennas aimed at each other will go miles.

However, I'm getting ready to do just what you are proposing. Not as much for the ethernet but for phone, and if I'm running one, I'll run the other. While they are installing the gas line to my shop, they are going to run a second trench and I'm putting a couple 3/4" PVC conduits in. One gets a pair of CAT5E cables for ethernet and phone and a pullstring and the other gets just a pull string for future use. PVC conduit is cheap--$0.10/ft. The Linksys WRT54G already in the shop will go from being a bridge to being a WAP and switch. I'm taking both home and office phone lines out too. In theory I can work out there then. I'm planning to buy a pair of the APC ethernet surge protectors.

I'll add a question on to yours though--any thoughts on the need for direct burial cable in the conduit or can I use the 1000' box I already have?

[Scott T Smith]

I have a 600' run of gell filled, Cat5E cable from the house to the shop. In order to maximize performance, I purchased a pair of DSL converters to use with it. I convert the ethernet to DSL, and then convert back to ethernet at the shop. The converters were about a hundred bucks each and are made by Embarq. This setup is good for 2000'.

[Dave Lehnert]

I have a wireless router set up in the second floor of my home. My shop is about 200 ft away and can connect with not problem. In fact I can connect 300+ feet away.
The router I use is a West???? something. Don't think it's anything special. My phone co. gave it to me when I set up the wireless.

[Tony Joyce]

I'm in the process of doing something similar. I'm using "point to point bridging" this is regular routers with outside whip antennas and lighting protection. I have half of it in(DSL in my shop) and have good reception in my driveway at home(about 400' away), but not inside yet. When I install the other router and antenna at my home I expect to have excellent reception inside. I bought this as a kit for about $250.(wifi-link dot com) This seemed to be the cheapest route for me, hardwire was not an option, because of distance and a state road between the shop and house.

Just my .02 cents worth!

[Dennis McGarry]

for 200 odd feet, pick up a box of cat5e soild core, a couple of cat5 keystone jacks.

Box of 1000 feet is around 80 bucks at the borg's and the jacks are 4.99 each.

They come with a small punch down tool, put them in a box in the house and the shop, then use a standard patch cable from box to switch and to router in shop

at 200 feet you will have no problems at all. Do it all the time.

[Jim Becker]

Ethernet's technical limit is 300 meters end-to-end...that means including everything between the origination port and the termination port. Fiber has a significantly longer reach. Regardless of what you use, since it's likely going in conduit in the ground, it's going to cost a little more than 250 meters of "regular" Cat5+/Cat6 wire will if you buy the correct product for this purpose. And as Matt suggests, if you're pulling one cable, you might as well pull multiples at the same time. You might even consider pulling a cabling bundle that has both the twisted pair wires for Ethernet and POTS as well as RG6+ for TV content.

[Anthony Scira]

Have you tried a 802.11N Router ? Should have better range, although you will probably need to get a new network card for your computer......

[Rick Frye]

If you do not disconnect the cable before a storm be ready to exchange either the network card or power supply just from experience.................:mad:

[Mark Beall]

If you do not disconnect the cable before a storm be ready to exchange either the network card or power supply just from experience.................:mad:

Good point. Maybe another reason to use fiber...

mark

[Mitchell Andrus]

If you do not disconnect the cable before a storm be ready to exchange either the network card or power supply just from experience.................:mad:

I was told there is a way to bury a lightning 'sink' next to the conduit to protect the wires inside.

Waiting to hear back from a fiber guy.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Have you tried a 802.11N Router ? Should have better range, although you will probably need to get a new network card for your computer......

2 "N" routers were used to make the bridge. A couple of trees nearby kills the signal.
.

[paul cottingham]

Make sure the electrical service is set up safely for the two buildings if you use copper. Otherwise you can get shocks and blow up nic cards. Consult an electrician for sure about this.

Your distance is fine; cat5 is fine to 90 meters plus 10 meters for patch cables. more than that will work, but you will get bit timing errors which may or may not cause problems. Probably not but.... Cat 6 is ok to the same distance but will not run at 1000 Mbit over that distance, but who cares. Be careful if you put a phone line in the same conduit. When it rings the 90 volts wil create induced voltage in the network line, and may give you grief.

If you go with fibre, pull an extra pair, you never know. For that matter, do the same with copper....and make sure whoever does it leaves the string in.
Good luck!

[Anthony Scira]

Oh thats easy.....cut the trees down.

[Lee Ludden]

You might also look into Ethernet over Power or Powerline Ethernet, if both house and shop are fed from the same main panel. Check out this link (http://netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/PowerlineEthernetAdapters/XEB1004.aspx). I have installed this in some very large houses with real good results.

[Bryan Morgan]

Good point. Maybe another reason to use fiber...

mark


I was also going to recommend fiber. Whenever we do runs of that size (between buildings) we always go fiber. Use twice as many strands as you think you need (2 per connection...sometimes you have to regrind the ends, nice to have spares). Slap a media converter on each end and you are off and running.

[Matt Meiser]

Be careful if you put a phone line in the same conduit. When it rings the 90 volts wil create induced voltage in the network line, and may give you grief.

Have you seen that or are you speculating? I ask because in industrial environments, I've seen problems occur when they lay in in the same cable tray as 480V, but not much else caused by wiring. Overheated or substandard equipment is another story. In my own house I've run multiple runs to each room and most of it runs along one basement wall and branches from there. That big bundle contains phone, Ethernet, and video coax and it works fine. I ran 2 cat5e's to each room, one blue jack and one white jack. blue is ethernet, white is phone but they can be repurposed as needed. That's how most offices I've worked in were wired as well.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Oh thats easy.....cut the trees down.

...or move the shop.
.

[Matt Meiser]

Mitchell, Newegg has media converters for as little as $60. TrendNet but they're getting good reviews. Obviously you need a pair.

I haven't yet found long preterminated cables. But I'm wondering, can you pull a pre-terminated fiber cable through 220' of 3/4" conduit? Or do you have to pull unterminated cable and have someone do the terminations. I'm guessing the terminations aren't a one-time DIY job?

[Mitchell Andrus]

Mitchell, Newegg has media converters for as little as $60. TrendNet but they're getting good reviews. Obviously you need a pair.

I haven't yet found long preterminated cables. But I'm wondering, can you pull a pre-terminated fiber cable through 220' of 3/4" conduit? Or do you have to pull unterminated cable and have someone do the terminations. I'm guessing the terminations aren't a one-time DIY job?

DIY fiber ends... yea, I'm guessing not. I can run 2" conduit if I have to.
.

[Matt Meiser]

Same here too actually, since I haven't bought anything yet. Did you find long cables?

I might call a couple communication-type companies and see what they'd want to pull in fiber and terminate it for me. Probably more than I want to spend.

[Warren Johnson]

I run this for a living. I would suggest you try some of the companies listed on the internet or locally to buy a pre terminated Cat. 5e cable or a pre terminated fiber cable.

You can order the fiber to have a pulling eye on it. That will protect the connectors, sice you are putting tension on the "eye" and not the cable itself. Should be no problem unless you have some sharp bends in the conduit.

If you go with bulk Cat 5e cable, you should be able to get jacks with color coded termination marked. Just do it the same on both ends. Again, no problem.

[Derek Gilmer]

Blast away with a DIY wifi antenna: http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/has.html

Fun and classy looking.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Blast away with a DIY wifi antenna: http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/has.html

Fun and classy looking.

Thanks, but I'm running a business here. Money I got, time to frig around with coffee cans I don't.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I run this for a living. I would suggest you try some of the companies listed on the internet or locally to buy a pre terminated Cat. 5e cable or a pre terminated fiber cable.

You can order the fiber to have a pulling eye on it. That will protect the connectors, sice you are putting tension on the "eye" and not the cable itself. Should be no problem unless you have some sharp bends in the conduit.

If you go with bulk Cat 5e cable, you should be able to get jacks with color coded termination marked. Just do it the same on both ends. Again, no problem.

Any idea what to do at the ends after the connection? There are dozens of choices.:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=40000365&Description=fiber%20optic&name=Network%20Transceivers

Same for fiber cable/connectors:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=fiber+optic&x=17&y=29



Maybe I need to be in a different forum on this one....
..

[Derek Gilmer]

Thanks, but I'm running a business here. Money I got, time to frig around with coffee cans I don't.
.
In that case get a local networking/comptuer place to come out and quote running it.

If you want to do it yourself I'd say run the cat 6 cable much less trouble than fiber. Get some leviton in wall jacks, they are color coded for easy install. Then plug a router/powered switch in at the wall on both ends and you are good to go. We have runs between data centers a little over 300' actually and it is ok.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=15206&minisite=10027

[Matt Meiser]

Mitchell, here's what I've found.

Media Converters: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156005. These use ST connectors.

Cable: http://www.lanshack.com/2-Strand-Custom-Indoor-Plenum-625125-Multimode-Fiber-Whips-Assembly-P3185C0.aspx

It would cost me around $300 in my case for the system.

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks, but I'm running a business here. Money I got, time to frig around with coffee cans I don't.
.

Hey, that's what the local wireless internet service provider was doing. Of course it didn't work when I had them install it and their web site has since disappeared so....

[paul cottingham]

Have you seen that or are you speculating? I ask because in industrial environments, I've seen problems occur when they lay in in the same cable tray as 480V, but not much else caused by wiring. Overheated or substandard equipment is another story. In my own house I've run multiple runs to each room and most of it runs along one basement wall and branches from there. That big bundle contains phone, Ethernet, and video coax and it works fine. I ran 2 cat5e's to each room, one blue jack and one white jack. blue is ethernet, white is phone but they can be repurposed as needed. That's how most offices I've worked in were wired as well.

I'm inferring. I've seen computers screwed up that have a phone line in a conduit next to a network cable. I can't prove a connection, but can infer one. Thats why I said may give you grief. :-)

Hell, I've seen computers reboot when you switch on a light because someone tied the network cable to a power line for a light with zap straps....

That being said, I too, have massive bundles of cable in my home with mixed cabling and have had little trouble. But I would be careful in conduit. In any offices we wired we avoided phone lines religiously when we wired and that served us well. Again speculation, but informed speculation, as "best practices" (whatever that means) would dictate avoiding phone lines.

[Derek Gilmer]

I'm inferring. I've seen computers screwed up that have a phone line in a conduit next to a network cable. I can't prove a connection, but can infer one. Thats why I said may give you grief. :-)

Hell, I've seen computers reboot when you switch on a light because someone tied the network cable to a power line for a light with zap straps....

That being said, I too, have massive bundles of cable in my home with mixed cabling and have had little trouble. But I would be careful in conduit. In any offices we wired we avoided phone lines religiously when we wired and that served us well. Again speculation, but informed speculation, as "best practices" (whatever that means) would dictate avoiding phone lines.
And I'd be nervous of what the interference over a long run could to to network performance.

[paul cottingham]

Mitchell, Newegg has media converters for as little as $60. TrendNet but they're getting good reviews. Obviously you need a pair.

I haven't yet found long preterminated cables. But I'm wondering, can you pull a pre-terminated fiber cable through 220' of 3/4" conduit? Or do you have to pull unterminated cable and have someone do the terminations. I'm guessing the terminations aren't a one-time DIY job?

Leviton sells a mechanical connector for fibre that is easy to install. There may be a place that rents the termination equipment locally. It's easy (or at least easier than using epoxy or cyanoaccrolate.)

[paul cottingham]

And I'd be nervous of what the interference over a long run could to to network performance.

Yes you would get all kinds of bit timing errors.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I heard back from a company:

To: Mitch Andrus

Fiber Optic would be a better option. Then you do not need to be concerned about voltage surges or ground loops.

I would suggest getting a pair of the model EIS-M-ST $129 each.

You would connect the pair of units with Multi-mode fiber with ST connectors.

Below is a link to more information.

http://www.bb-elec.com/product_multi_family.asp?MultiFamilyId=100


The Fiber optic cable that we sell is not rated for outdoors, so you may need to source that cable.



Sincerely
Peter Fitzpatrick
Technical Support Representative
B&B Electronics
707 Dayton Rd
P.O. Box 1040
Ottawa IL 61350
Phone: 815-433-5100 ext 261
Fax: 815-433-5104

[Mitchell Andrus]

Mitchell, here's what I've found.

Media Converters: http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156005. These use ST connectors.

Cable: http://www.lanshack.com/2-Strand-Custom-Indoor-Plenum-625125-Multimode-Fiber-Whips-Assembly-P3185C0.aspx

It would cost me around $300 in my case for the system.

Thanks, I'll check this out. ST connectors seems to be the right ones too.
.

[Matt Meiser]

Check out Ebay Seller CablesAndKits. I can do mine for about $200 from them.

[paul cottingham]

st's or sc's will work. just match them up with the media convertor you get. I prefer st's but just because they are what I learned on.

[Warren Johnson]

3/4 in conduit would be too tight to pull a fiber with connectors on. I suggest you contact a local electrcian, or a company that does voice and data work. Install the fiber yourself and ask them to terminate and test it.

If you go with fiber you will need a media convertor to change signal back to copper (cat x) on both ends.

If you use Cat x, then plug into PC in shop and your router/switch in the house.

[Matt Meiser]

Warren, how big a conduit would you recommend for a duplex SC connector?

[Mitchell Andrus]

3/4 in conduit would be too tight to pull a fiber with connectors on. I suggest you contact a local electrcian, or a company that does voice and data work. Install the fiber yourself and ask them to terminate and test it.

If you go with fiber you will need a media convertor to change signal back to copper (cat x) on both ends.

If you use Cat x, then plug into PC in shop and your router/switch in the house.



All good. I'm thinking 1.5" or better. I've been warned to be sure the cable has a 'pull strand' in it. Not all do and most non-reinforced fiber-optic cables will not survive a 200+' pull.
.

[Matt Meiser]

PVC conduit is so cheap it doesn't really hurt the wallet too much to upsize. As I mentioned before, 3/4" is $0.10/ft but it only jumps to $0.25/ft or so for 1-1/2. A lot cheaper than an electrician visit.

Mitchell, another source I found, well I knew of them, but I found they can do custom assemblies is http://www.showmecables.com (http://www.showmecables.com/). They quoted me $150 for a 62 meter duplex cable with ST connectors and a pull eye. People from work have dealt with them before with good success.

If you go ahead with this, please keep this thread updated--I'll be watching with interest. I'm probably 6-8 weeks out on mine since there's a number of other things that have to happen first.

[paul cottingham]

One other thing to consider is switches with fibre modules in them (or are addable.) That may be cheaper than media convertors plus switch.

[Warren Johnson]

I would go with 1 1/4 if you can do it. Also, if Cat X is being used instead of fiber, I would recommend "direct burial". I would still install in a conduit. There is a gel inside the jacket to help protect against any water that may get into the conduit. It extra cost will not be that much more and could save on installing another copper line in the future.

[Warren Johnson]

Mitchell,

I just reread you original post and see that you have the router already. If you install the conduit, you should be able to get a 200 foot Cat 5e cable with an RJ-45 plug on each end for around $50.00. That would allow you yo plug into the routers and see how the connection works. If you are happy, you could skip the need for fiber at this time.

Think about installing 2 "runs", that way you have a back up or could use one for voice.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, I'm committed now. I have 2 of the Trendnet fiber converters I linked to earlier on the way. Got a pair new on Ebay for $50 total including shipping. That's what 2 APC RJ45 surge protectors would have run. I also have a short duplex patch cord with the ST connectors on its way for testing.

I also found a seller with a long enough (60M) patch cable that I could get for around $55 but it doesn't have a pull eye. I see you can buy a reusable pull eye for around $25. Any thoughts from the pros? Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a custom cable assembly?

Mitchell, I sent you some links last night.

[Bryan Morgan]

One other thing to consider is switches with fibre modules in them (or are addable.) That may be cheaper than media convertors plus switch.

Those get expensive... the GBIC modules alone are $300 (need one at each end)... at least the ones I've used with the ProCurve stuff...

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Mitchell, I have exactly same distance from my home to shop. When I did my electric cable I put a separate conductor for CAT5. But just last week I install my old PC at the shop, connect it to my wifi router with "Wireless 150N USB Adapter w/ detachable antenna" and INTELLINET NETWORK SOLUTIONS Indoor Omni-Directional Antenna.
it was no wifi signal at my shop when I did check with my mac laptop, but now I have very good to excellent signal with this setup. Even more, I can see another 15 wifi spots. By the way closest neighborhood house in 500-600 feet at least.
Ed.

[Dave Johnson29]

I'm thinking seriously about running a conduit and pulling CatX wire. "They" say up to 100 meters is acceptable but I have my doubts and getting a cable made just to test is expensive.


Mitchell,

I have about 350 total in any one run. I used stock cables and connectors to daisy chain them. I have several 75ft, 50ft and 25ft and a bunch of these...

allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MT-88/CATEGORY-5E-COUPLER//1.html

I have a DSL modem/router 10/100 in the house and a Zonet 8-port Ethernet Switch in the garage. It's about 175ft from the DSL/Router to the Zonet then another 100ft to 150ft to the computers. I can run 8 computers in the garage and 4 in the house.

The Zonet is powered and conditions the signal so distance is not an issue. I think I paid about 15-bucks for the Zonet.

I turned off network discovery on all but the main Vista machine and assigned each computer it's own IP address. They all use the Samsung printer in the house.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Mitchell,

I have about 350 total in any one run. I used stock cables and connectors to daisy chain them. I have several 75ft, 50ft and 25ft and a bunch of these...

allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MT-88/CATEGORY-5E-COUPLER//1.html

I have a DSL modem/router 10/100 in the house and a Zonet 8-port Ethernet Switch in the garage. It's about 175ft from the DSL/Router to the Zonet then another 100ft to 150ft to the computers. I can run 8 computers in the garage and 4 in the house.

The Zonet is powered and conditions the signal so distance is not an issue. I think I paid about 15-bucks for the Zonet.

I turned off network discovery on all but the main Vista machine and assigned each computer it's own IP address. They all use the Samsung printer in the house.

Dave's a power user. 12 computers....?

OK - I'll bite. What the heck do you do with all of them machines?
.

[Matt Meiser]

Anyone else hear an evil laugh?

[Dave Johnson29]

Dave's a power user. 12 computers....?
OK - I'll bite. What the heck do you do with all of them machines?


:D I said, "can run..."

I have 3 in the house and 4 in the garage. In the house one has all the accounting and credit card processing software on it and that never sees the Internet so it is 100% safe and secure. The second one is an older one that still has a lot of programming stuff I sometimes refer to. It was not worth the effort to transfer it all to the Vista laptop so I just use a VNC when I need to look stuff up.

In the garage I have one for the laser which is running w2000 and then VirtualPC 2004 as the laser needs win3.1 and DOS 6.22.

The next one is win98 for one of the metalworking CNC milling machines. It is a big SOB weighing in at 4,500lbs. 100-ipm rapids etc, 2000-lbs table load, 5hp, 6,000rpm 3-phase spindle motor.

Another is a medium sized CNC metalworking mill that is running a 486-IBM desktop and DOS.

The Emco CNC lathe uses an older Toshiba laptop running w2000.

The fourth is a benchtop mill I use for engraving and that runs Mach3 under w2000.

I have another bench-top CNC lathe (win95) and also another bench-top mill (DOS 5.??) but they are not needed so they do not get counted, but could count as they are all part of the network when turned on.

They can all see each other and the data is stored on the laptop in the house.

Me? A gadget freak> Nah. :eek::D:D

[paul cottingham]

While it may work, I don't recommend joining cables. The 568 standard forbids this for a reason. It is an easy way to introduce bit timing errors and all manner of bad things. but to each his own....
I must be off, need to cut something on my tablesaw without any protective gear.....

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

can you cheat and use a CB type radio amplifier? you only need a couple of watts tops each way and you want to stay in the band frequency you start the signal out in.

[Matt Meiser]

I can't really talk as I'm a geek too. I've got 2 wireless access points for our private network, 1 for a guest network with a captive portal--kind of like a hotel where no matter where you browse you can't get there until you log in, a PC-based router, a Windows Home Server, shop PC, home PC, work PC, home and work networked printers, DVR, Wii, a bridge in the shop, webcam (so the wife can check on me) in the shop, plus I'm sure something else I'm forgetting.

I want to add a machine to run VMWare Server for work/play.

And soon...fiber to the shop :D

[Dave Johnson29]

I want to add a machine to run VMWare Server for work/play.


Matt, I like VirtualPC 2004 and 2007 - free too. Even though the install says it is not for the platforms I use it on, (w2000 and Vista Home Premium) they both work perfectly. I tried several of the others including VMWare but all had limitations and quirks. So far I cannot fault VPC.

I have a VPC2007 on my laptop, that is running w95, w98, DOS 6.22 and win3.1, w2000 and XP so I can test potential network configurations. Along with that all machines (except Vista) boot with TightVNC server so I can access them from anywhere in the world. :eek:

As well as all the cable I have the wifi Access Point too. All my friends have pre-assigned IPs and are connected by the time they walk through the door with a laptop under their arm. :)

And I wonder where all my spare time goes! ;)

[Matt Meiser]

We are heavy VMWare users where I work, that's the only reason I'd go with that. I've used VirtualPC in training and at a previous job and I think its easier to use for the casual user. I was just in a training class where we used Sun VirtualBox. I thought it was cool on Day 1. By Day 3, I hated it. Every machine in the room had it crash at least once. Some damaged the virtual machine files in the process.

I got a short fiber cable (Ebay, $5 total) for testing in the mail yesterday. I'm expecting 2 media converters (Ebay, $50 total) today. And just this morning I bought a 50M fiber cable with the pull eye (Ebay, $28 total). I'd have never considered it if it weren't for this thread.

Mitchell will probably beat me on the install though since I need to wait for the gas company to build the gas main and install my service line before my HVAC contractor can do my gas conversion. Trenching to my shop will be about the last step in the whole process.

[Dave Johnson29]

While it may work, I don't recommend joining cables.

I am not convinced Paul. The cable-joiners are not better or no worse than the sockets on the patch panels and routers. Gold contacts to gold contacts.

If the environment is that noisy then fiber optics should be mandatory and the use joiners too.

I have been networking stuff longer than I care to remember. Never had a problem with cable joiners. In fact had more problems with patch panel connectors than anything. That gets expensive when you have to replace the panel for a couple of bad connectors.

[Dave Johnson29]

Trenching to my shop will be about the last step in the whole process.

I was lucky. The guy who built this house was a retired Government Electrician. He has pipes and cables everywhere and for everything. Including a 10' C-Band and 4 dish-network installations. He even piped hot water from the house to the garage!

I don't bother with TV, but the cable pipes are nice. :D

I am happy with the performance of the Cat-5 so see no need to try a fiber system. If it ain't broke...

My only gripe is I have not yet been able to get the win98 to access the Vista machine. I must have spent 150 hours on that. The win98 can access everyone else on the network but not the Vista. I finally gave up and use a w2000 as the go between and synch files.

win98 <-> w2000 <-> Vista

Not ideal, but if you have some suggestions I am all ears.

[paul cottingham]

I am not convinced Paul. The cable-joiners are not better or no worse than the sockets on the patch panels and routers. Gold contacts to gold contacts.

If the environment is that noisy then fiber optics should be mandatory and the use joiners too.

I have been networking stuff longer than I care to remember. Never had a problem with cable joiners. In fact had more problems with patch panel connectors than anything. That gets expensive when you have to replace the panel for a couple of bad connectors.

Like I said, you will also find people who swear that you don't need to use safety equipment either as long as you are careful. I made a good amount of money fixing up networks wired exactly as you describe. Te EIA/TIA standards exist for a reason. The issue is one of signal propagation, and joiners (and home-made patch cables, and all manner of things) really affect it, so they are expressly forbidden by the standard.

That being said, who cares? If this is just a home network, it doesn't really matter, does it? As long as it works. It just gets my dander up as an ex-cabler.

oh, and troubleshooting that kind of stuff when it fails can be a bear.
:D

[Art Mulder]

We are heavy VMWare users where I work, that's the only reason I'd go with that. I've used VirtualPC in training and at a previous job and I think its easier to use for the casual user. I was just in a training class where we used Sun VirtualBox. I thought it was cool on Day 1. By Day 3, I hated it. Every machine in the room had it crash at least once. Some damaged the virtual machine files in the process.

I got a short fiber cable (Ebay, $5 total) for testing in the mail yesterday. I'm expecting 2 media converters (Ebay, $50 total) today. And just this morning I bought a 50M fiber cable with the pull eye (Ebay, $28 total). I'd have never considered it if it weren't for this thread.

I agree, this has been a fascinating thread to a woodworker-geek. I also had no idea that fiber had dropped so much that it was a reasonable option for home use. I'd never heard of fiber having a "pull-cable" on it, and so on.

I'm surprised at your problems with virtualbox. Was this on a PC?
I've got virtualbox on both my macs (home + work) and I use it to have a windows pc and linux pc installed right there on my mac system. I've never had it cause me any problem. But to be fair, I only use it infrequently for an hour at a time. Previously I used it on a WinXP system, with WinXP installed on virtualbox, so that I could have a "sandbox" system. I love the checkpointing. I've used that a few times to roll-back a broken/infected system to a known-good point.

However it does kind of annoy me that it is upgraded essentially weekly. Every time I launch it, it wants to be updated.

We are going to be checking out vmware at work - going to virtualize a bunch of our services. Seems like the way to go.

[Matt Meiser]

They had VirtualBox running on Server 2003. We were running a Server 2003 VM inside it. Many of them were crashing overnight. We'd leave them running and the next day as soon as you'd move the mouse VirtualBox just quit. The ones that damaged the vm files were crashes during some operation. I've never had VMWare crash on me (knock on wood.)

My media converters showed up late this afternoon. I'm posting via 1M of fiber right now. How cool is that? I totally blame Mark Beall for this. :p

[Mitchell Andrus]

My media converters showed up late this afternoon. I'm posting via 1M of fiber right now. How cool is that? I totally blame Mark Beall for this. :p

They're working.... cool. Mine are due today - but so is my mom for a 6 day visit.

What speed are you getting through the converters? ....or is the limiting factor you're provider? I had Fios in NJ (we were spoiled), here in NC it's back to DSL. On Fios, everything inside the house slowed stuff down. I have a feeling that here everything in the house will not make much difference.
.

[Matt Meiser]

The limiting factor would definitely be my provider so I haven't tested. Maybe I'll try to find a speed test utility I can run on my own network.

[Bryan Morgan]

The limiting factor would definitely be my provider so I haven't tested. Maybe I'll try to find a speed test utility I can run on my own network.

There are many free testers for this. Most require you to load a small applet on one computer and run the actual tester from another.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The limiting factor would definitely be my provider so I haven't tested. Maybe I'll try to find a speed test utility I can run on my own network.

I use this one: (to the outside world)

http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/

free.
.

[Matt Meiser]

I found one called "LAN Speed Test" on Downloads.com that is a single-file executable that does a test by writing to a network share. From my laptop with the wire unplugged, I get about 19MBPS each way (on a G network.) Wire plugged in through the fiber, wireless off 89. The 19 was the same from my shop PC over the current wireless link. I'm not sure if these numbers are accurate, but they give a good comparison. I think this is going to seriously speed up my weekly backups.

Both numbers are a LOT faster than my internet connection is capable of.

[Mark Beall]

They had VirtualBox running on Server 2003.

My media converters showed up late this afternoon. I'm posting via 1M of fiber right now. How cool is that? I totally blame Mark Beall for this. :p

I don't think I've been blamed for any coolness lately :) Glad to hear it's working for you.

mark

[Matt Meiser]

And just this morning I bought a 50M fiber cable with the pull eye (Ebay, $28 total).

Got my cable a little bit ago and tried it out. Works great and is Corning brand fiber. The gas company is assembling long lengths of main around the corner from my house and in a couple weeks they should have the main installed in front of my house and pressurized, then my gas conversion project can start and I can get my conduit in.

[Rod Upfold]

I hated putting the connectors on cat cables...



Rod

[Matt Meiser]

Same here. Getting the jacket stripped, the wires straightened and ordered properly, then crimped. Painful.

[paul cottingham]

then don't make patch cables, buy them. the crimp on ends people use for those kinds of cables are almost always for stranded cables, and most people use solid cable for them. the cables always fail if you test them with a cable certifier (not a tester.) that ought to tell you something.

Its all about frequency propagation. home made patch cables don't cut it, its the equivalent of cutting dovetails with a swede saw, it'll work, but not too well, and eventually, it'll fail.

For solid cable, attach female jacks, and use patch cables to connect them.

Just good cabling practice.

[Matt Meiser]

Right or wrong, the way I wired my house is to run homeruns from all the rooms back to a network closet in the basement. The rooms have keystone jacks. I'd like to have run them to a patch panel in the basement but at the time they were pretty expensive, plus all the patch cords I would have needed would have added even more. So I installed a RJ45 jack on that end. Someday (TM) I will change them out for a patch panel. But in practice it works just fine. I only have a 100MBPS switch and it might be different if it was 1GBPS. Each room has a blue and white jack. White is phone, blue is ethernet. Except my office which has 6 blue and 2 white.

Everything is RJ45 so I can turn a port into phone or ethernet if needed by just moving the cable from a small surplus patch panel I found to use as a "phone hub" to the switch or vise-versa.

[paul cottingham]

Sorry, I can get pretty pedantic about this. The way you have wired that will eventually fail, but subtly at first. clients will start getting dhcp leases slower, dns will resolve slower or not at all, and you will have trouble pinpointing why. This is true even at 100 Mbit.

I just can't help myself, its like people who can't leave threads alone that comment on table saw safety.

btW I never use a pushstick. :D

J/K, I use a grripper.:D

[Warren Johnson]

Matt,

Buy a blank patch panel and bracket. You install your RJ - 45 female jack's into the panel as you go along. You already have the jacks on the ends of the cables, so the cost should be under $40.00 for a panel and bracket. Mount it close to the equipment in your closet and buy some short patch cables. You should be able to find some that 1 foot long. That should allow you to keep everything neat.

[paul cottingham]

+1 to that.

[Matt Meiser]

OK, you've convinced me. Looking around they've come down quite a bit in price. When I looked at doing patch panels/cords before it was going to be really expensive. Patch panels were $100 and up used at the time. Cables were a couple bucks each. But they have come down quite a bit in price so I just ordered some of the 12-port vertical patch panels. I chose those because they'll be easier to mount in my situation than buying the 19" rack style and a bracket. Now is a good time because I need to do some changes on the phone side and run wiring to the attached garage where the conduit from the shop will be coming in. Monoprice has cables ridiculously cheap and I've had good luck with them.

[paul cottingham]

Don't forget to check electrical wholesalers...they often will deal with walk-ins and are much cheaper. Also, make sure the panel matches whatever standard (568A or B) that you used n the jacks.

[Dennis McGarry]

OK, you've convinced me. Looking around they've come down quite a bit in price. When I looked at doing patch panels/cords before it was going to be really expensive. Patch panels were $100 and up used at the time. Cables were a couple bucks each. But they have come down quite a bit in price so I just ordered some of the 12-port vertical patch panels. I chose those because they'll be easier to mount in my situation than buying the 19" rack style and a bracket. Now is a good time because I need to do some changes on the phone side and run wiring to the attached garage where the conduit from the shop will be coming in. Monoprice has cables ridiculously cheap and I've had good luck with them.

Matt if you need one, I have a couple extra 48 port siemons patch panels. If you want one just let me know and cover shipping and its yours..

Dennis

[Matt Meiser]

The patch panels I bought work for either standard, as do the jacks I used. I just have to pull one and check which I used.

Dennis, thanks for the offer--If I hadn't ordered that many ports worth already I definitely would have taken you up on it!

And no, I don't have 48 ports in my house. I'll use 12 as a hub for phone wiring and have about 20 or so ports scattered around. I ordered one extra for future

I've currently use two of these little 6-port Leviton patch panels as a phone hub because I got them for a couple bucks each at one of the big box stores on clearance. Those will get moved to either end of the conduit to my shop to provide for transitioning between the wire and fiber converters and for the phone wiring. I've got a couple nice enclosures I bought a while back that will work nicely for holding everything.

http://cache3.smarthome.com/images/865107main.jpg