Table saw choices

[Greg Book]

I recently sold my old Delta 10" table saw (model 34-670) and got a Craftsman 21833 in place of it. The Craftsman turned out to be a pile of junk and I returned it. I ordered a Grizzly contractor saw yesterday, but found out the model I want was on back order, then found out today they no longer carry it. They offered the G0691 at a slight discount, but its too heavy and a little too pricey for me.

There are surprisingly few contractor style saws out there now. But I've narrowed it down to either the Porter Cable 10" saw PCB270TS (http://www.lowes.com/pd_101711-46069-PCB270TS_4294857520_4294937087?productId=3161103&Ns=p_product_price%7C0&pl=1&currentURL=/pl_Table%2BSaws%2B_4294857520_4294937087_?newSearc h=true$ddkey=http:CategoryDisplay) from Lowes, or the Jet JWTS-10 (http://www.toolorbit.com/Jet/Jet-708100.html) from a place called toolorbit.com. Anyone have opinions of these saws?

[Greg Book]

I should probably extend my questions beyond "what are peoples opinions". Specifically, the Jet is listed as having a 12A motor, which is less than the 15A I'm used to with the Delta or Craftsman. Does this lower amperage effect performance? The worst I'd do is rip 2" maple with a thin kerf blade.

The Jet also does not have a riving knife. Is a riving knife terribly important?

Second, the Porter Cable manual does not provide a procedure for adjusting the blade parallel to the miter slots. No mention of trunnion alignment. I'm wondering if its simply not mentioned, or if its not possible to align with this model? I'm hesitant to not be able to align the blade because of all the alignment absurdity with the Craftsman.

[Cary Falk]

The Porter Cable is too new to have a track record. I don't think it is even a rebadged Delta. I would stay clear of it. For about the price of the Jet you could go Polar Bear and be better off.http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Tablesaw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series/G0715P. A riving knife is nice to have.

[Van Huskey]

First, I would NOT buy a new TS without a riving knife, but some saws can be retrofit with a bolt on riving knife.

Second, I would not buy a Jet unless it was a cabinet saw, the value isn't there in their smaller saws. I probably wouldn't buy the PC unless I really poured over one in person, I have yet to see one. All contractors saws are more difficult to align than cabinet saws by the nature of the trunnion mounts.

Third, the Grizzly hybrid Cary mentions will likely be great bang for the book but listed as not available until September...

Finally, your budget would also help people recommend other saws. I assume it is in the $700 range.

[Cary Falk]

[QUOTE=Van Huskey;1442388]

Third, the Grizzly hybrid Cary mentions will likely be great bang for the book but listed as not available until September...

QUOTE]

More than likely it won't be Sept. The bandsaws which are due in mid July are already being delivered. It could be July or August though.

[Steve Bracken]

The Porter Cable is too new to have a track record. I don't think it is even a rebadged Delta. I would stay clear of it. For about the price of the Jet you could go Polar Bear and be better off.http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Hybrid-Tablesaw-with-Riving-Knife-Polar-Bear-Series/G0715P. A riving knife is nice to have.

That's understating it quite a bit.

A riving knife should be, and will be an essential safety component. It is only missing on US saws because the manufacturers have dragged their heels in redesigning the arbor movements (they need to move straight up and down, not in an arc).

They are, however, coming ..... Meanwhile the B.O.R.K looks like a good substitute if it will fit your saw.

[Greg Book]

Finally, your budget would also help people recommend other saws. I assume it is in the $700 range.

Thanks for the comments! My budget is around $600/700. So $850 is steep for me... or I should say my wife, because she currently earns more than I do. But anyway, weight is an important factor. ~300lbs is a true limit because I need to get the saw into the basement.

[Van Huskey]

[QUOTE=Van Huskey;1442388]

Third, the Grizzly hybrid Cary mentions will likely be great bang for the book but listed as not available until September...

QUOTE]

More than likely it won't be Sept. The bandsaws which are due in mid July are already being delivered. It could be July or August though.

Both the 555P and 513P showed from yesterday (the first day they were listed) that the first shipments had arrived. Now everything else besides the TS has shown July. Now, it is true that Grizzly often gets stuff before (and after) they say they will, I mentioned it because he sounds like he is without a saw now.

[Van Huskey]

Thanks for the comments! My budget is around $600/700. So $850 is steep for me... or I should say my wife, because she currently earns more than I do. But anyway, weight is an important factor. ~300lbs is a true limit because I need to get the saw into the basement.

I would really recommend the Grizzly G0661 fits the weight bill, has a riving knife, has cabinet mounted trunnions for ease of alignment BUT even at the summer sale price it is $795 plus $94 shipping.

If you can wait on the hybrid from Grizzly it will be even cheaper and as far as I can tell more saw. The weight will be higher but you can remove parts to get it into the basement as many people do.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I think Van is right... that grizzly "contractor saw" really doesn't have many of the traits associated with a typical contractor saw. No motor hanging out the back, left tilt, riving knife, 2hp (rather than 1.5), dust shroud around the underside of the blade, decent-looking fence, cast iron wings, and an enclosed cabinet...

It's really like a hybrid saw with legs. That looks like a lot of saw for the money.

Here's the approach I recommend with the wife:

Let's say she gave the green light on a $700 saw. Save up the remainder ($200) by demonstrating that you have cut your expenses to compensate. Eat out less than usual, etc. Look at your typical spending habits and prove that you've made cuts.

You may have to wait a month or two, but table saws are very important components of the shop. If you're going to splurge, you should do it on your TS. If you're going to have to wait and save your cash, do it for a TS.

Don't buy a marginal saw just because you're short a few hundred bucks and you don't want to wait.

Oh and as far as the weight issue, keep in mind that they're giving you the fully-assembled weight. Moving the saw before assembling it will be much much easier (keep the cast iron extension wings, fence, and fence rails off- those elements alone will save you at least 100 lbs).

[Chad Bender]

I can't argue with the Grizzly recommendations, but I'm curious what your problems were with the Craftsman 21833? I have that saw, and apart from some minor annoyances that were easily overcome, haven't run into any showstopping problems (nor have I read reports of such problems online). Sure, the instructions suck, and the table mounted trunions took a couple of hours with a dial indicator to align properly, but my saw has behaved very well once I got it tuned up.

For $400, the 21833 is quite a lot of saw, and the riving knife (and blade guard) work very well and don't get in the way.

edit: I just saw in your other thread what your problems with the Craftsman were. If you liked the saw (apart from the alignment problem), I suggest trying another copy. I got mine ~3 months ago and have had no problems. I read a lot of reviews before buying, and found a lot of similarly satisfied people (and plenty who couldn't get over the poor manual), but don't recall any complaints similar to yours. I assume it was a manufacturing defect. My experience is that your problem was not a design flaw.

[Greg Book]

... but I'm curious what your problems were with the Craftsman 21833? ...

I completely agree with you, it is a great saw for the price. Lots of features, solid, powerful motor. The problem I and at least one other (http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/1464) person had was with the alignment of blade to the miter slots. As the blade was raised and lowered, the alignment would change. No adjustment possible. Since its happened at least once with another saw, I just couldn't see myself going through the work of assembling another one and possibly having the same problem. Plus, I don't see the saw on the Sears website any longer.

With regards to the other available saws, I seem to get the feeling the Jet saw is not worth the money and especially without a riving knife. I also get the impression the Porter Cable saw is a hit or miss because its new and untested.

[Harold Burrell]

Thanks for the comments! My budget is around $600/700. So $850 is steep for me... or I should say my wife, because she currently earns more than I do. But anyway, weight is an important factor. ~300lbs is a true limit because I need to get the saw into the basement.

I too would recommend the G0661. I do understand your concerns regarding the weight. However, you do realize that the saw comes in pieces right?

[Joe Leigh]

But anyway, weight is an important factor. ~300lbs is a true limit because I need to get the saw into the basement.

Don't let weigh be an overriding factor, I just got a 600lb PM2000 down a steep flight of stairs and into my basement. Saws can be broken down and re-assembled.

[Greg Book]

Thanks everyone for your comments, it did help me decide what to do. I went to Lowes to look at the Porter Cable today, which they did not have on display, but they did have the Hitachi. The Hitachi was on clearance, and it really is identical to the new Porter Cable. The Hitachi was a little flimsier than the Craftsman, but it also had bad reviews online. Breaking plastic screws to adjust blade tilt, dust problems shorting the motor, etc. Not worth it at all and I can't imagine the Porter Cable wouldn't have fixed those problems.

I then made my decision and called Grizzly to order the G0661 :) but the saw is on back-order until September 10th !! I have a lot of vacation time to use this summer so I really wanted to have a table saw available. The good thing is that Sears delivery didn't pick up the Craftsman 21833 yet, and I have until July 15 to return it for a refund. Until then I can still use the saw. Perhaps in the meantime I can find a way to fix the alignment problems. Otherwise the worst case is I'll be without a table saw for two months.

[scott spencer]

Greg - New contractor saws are dwindling in the market place because of the disadvantages caused by the outboard motor. Since there's no need and no benefit to an outboard motor, newer saws tend to move the motor inside the enclosure, which offers better dust collection, a smaller footprint, shorter drive belt, less chance of lifting something with the motor when it's titled (which can really whack the alignment). The newer hybrids solve all of those issues, and have next to no downside with all the same function as a contractor saw. Any of the better hybrids will serve you well with good setup and good blade selection. Jet Proshop, Craftsman, Grizzly G0661, Ridgid R4511, Shop Fox, Steel City, General International 50-240GT, Delta 36-715....all hybrids. You might still find a closeout on a Craftsman 22124, but those have mainly been replaced by the newer 22116.

If you've got 220v available, the step up to a 3hp cabinet saw isn't overly expensive for substantially more saw.

[Jim Rimmer]

Thanks everyone for your comments, it did help me decide what to do. I went to Lowes to look at the Porter Cable today, which they did not have on display, but they did have the Hitachi. The Hitachi was on clearance, and it really is identical to the new Porter Cable. The Hitachi was a little flimsier than the Craftsman, but it also had bad reviews online. Breaking plastic screws to adjust blade tilt, dust problems shorting the motor, etc. Not worth it at all and I can't imagine the Porter Cable wouldn't have fixed those problems.

I then made my decision and called Grizzly to order the G0661 :) but the saw is on back-order until September 10th !! I have a lot of vacation time to use this summer so I really wanted to have a table saw available. The good thing is that Sears delivery didn't pick up the Craftsman 21833 yet, and I have until July 15 to return it for a refund. Until then I can still use the saw. Perhaps in the meantime I can find a way to fix the alignment problems. Otherwise the worst case is I'll be without a table saw for two months.
I can't imagine going without a saw till Sept but I have a G0661 and it is worth the wait. Give Grizzly CSA a call. Sometimes they can ship from a different location that one CSA may not check and anothe one will.

[Greg Book]

I can't imagine going without a saw till Sept but I have a G0661 and it is worth the wait. Give Grizzly CSA a call. Sometimes they can ship from a different location that one CSA may not check and anothe one will.

What is Grizzly CSA? I talked to two different people at Grizzly and they both said Sept 10, I think they were both out of the MO office, and I'm in CT.

[Jim Andrew]

Think I'd look for a used unisaw, and take the table off to get it to the basement. Should be able to find one for 700. Especially in this economy. The Delta contractors saw is not anywhere near the class of the uni.

[Harry Robinette]

My understanding is ALL saws built after Jan.2009 must have a riving knife.
If I was looking at new saw I would check into if the 2009 info.is right,then
start asking why ther selling old saws for top dollar.IMHO:)

[Steve Bracken]

My understanding is ALL saws built after Jan.2009 must have a riving knife.
If I was looking at new saw I would check into if the 2009 info.is right,then
start asking why ther selling old saws for top dollar.IMHO:)

I think ... only if they want a UL listing.

[Greg Book]

I'm noticing the lack of contractor saws now. I was thinking it had to do with the necessity of a riving knife for UL listing, so manufacturers are just dropping their contractor saw lines instead of redesigning them.

One thing I am concerned with is the wait time for the Grizzly G0661. Currently they are saying September 10, but I read in another post on this site someone was waiting since February for the G1023, and that expected delivery date is now August. If the delivery date is pushed for the G0661 is pushed back like other people's orders... I just can't wait until November or something.

Because of the possible infinite delay, I'm considering two saws from Craigs list: A used Ridgid TS3650 for $450 OBO. The price seems quite high, I'm thinking of offering $300. Another is a Craftsman 22124 for $500. Much better deal, but I'm cautious of the Craftsman brand after being burned by the current saw that I have. These used saws also have no warranty, which makes me nervous. If I lug a 400lb saw home, I may find out its junk and need to resell it. Oy!

[scott spencer]

Greg - The 22124 (http://www.epinions.com/review/Craftsman_Professional_10_in_Table_Saw_22124/content_184778395268) is a really nice, well proven saw with an excellent fence...no comparison to any traditional contractor saw I've seen. It does have the Cman nameplate on it, but it's removable. :D It's made by Steel City's Orion subsidiary and share's nothing else in common with the 21833. There's an even aftermarket riving knife that will fit it...the Bolt On Ripping Knife (************) from Walnutacre Wwing. My 22124 served me well for 3-1/2 years...only a great deal on a Shop Fox 3hp cabinet saw persuaded me to make the change. With good alignment and good blade selection, it'll cut anything with relative ease.

[Will Overton]

My 22124 is 5 years old this month. I am giving to a friend this summer, but only because I decided on the similar powered SS.

There may be some, but I don't know anybody that owns or owned a 22124 that isn't/wasn't happy with it.

[Jim Rimmer]

What is Grizzly CSA? I talked to two different people at Grizzly and they both said Sept 10, I think they were both out of the MO office, and I'm in CT.
Sorry, CSA=Customer Service Associate. I would ask them specifically if they could ship it from another location.

[Dave Cav]

Think I'd look for a used unisaw, and take the table off to get it to the basement. Should be able to find one for 700. Especially in this economy. The Delta contractors saw is not anywhere near the class of the uni.

You beat me to it, but that was what I was going to suggest, too, an old arn Unisaw or PM 66. Take the top off and they are a lot lighter. If you find a 3 phase saw try to get them to knock the price down some more then get a TECO FM 50 VFD, assuming it's a 3 HP saw or less.

[Greg Book]

Still debating what to do, but I'm glad that I have the opportunity to get a new table saw and have this debate with myself. I'd really like a table saw this summer, so I'm hesitant of the wait for Grizzly. I saw that the Craftsman 22116 is now on sale for $799. I'd actually jump on that because of the reviews of its predecessor, but I'm not sure about the granite top. Rust can easily be fixed with steel wool and wax, but chips and cracks are not so easy. Plus, this model only has 2 reviews.

I should probably just stick with the Grizzly and wait it out. The wait shouldn't be a determining factor, because after this summer I'll have the saw forever. However, after I return the Craftsman 21833 next month, I'll be without a table saw for several months and the thought of that makes me keep looking around at other options.

Again, thanks everyone for your comments!

[Steve Bracken]

Still debating what to do, but I'm glad that I have the opportunity to get a new table saw and have this debate with myself. I'd really like a table saw this summer, so I'm hesitant of the wait for Grizzly. I saw that the Craftsman 22116 is now on sale for $799. I'd actually jump on that because of the reviews of its predecessor, but I'm not sure about the granite top. Rust can easily be fixed with steel wool and wax, but chips and cracks are not so easy. Plus, this model only has 2 reviews.

I should probably just stick with the Grizzly and wait it out. The wait shouldn't be a determining factor, because after this summer I'll have the saw forever. However, after I return the Craftsman 21833 next month, I'll be without a table saw for several months and the thought of that makes me keep looking around at other options.

Again, thanks everyone for your comments!

You might want to check the width of the miter slot on the Craftsman. I was under the impression they were narrower than the standard 3/4", and might limit the jigs and fixtures you can use (Unless you buy Craftsman, and that might be the point)

[Van Huskey]

You might want to check the width of the miter slot on the Craftsman. I was under the impression they were narrower than the standard 3/4", and might limit the jigs and fixtures you can use (Unless you buy Craftsman, and that might be the point)


I don't know about that saw BUT I will say I would not even consider a saw without a standard miter slot, period.

[Steve Bracken]

I don't know about that saw BUT I will say I would not even consider a saw without a standard miter slot, period.

Well I seem to remember looking at the Craftsman and thinking that they have made it non-standard as a feeble marketing ploy.

I could be wrong, and there are different model numbers out there, so I thought I'd mention it.

[Dave MacArthur]

Greg--
Where are you located? Not in your profile, and almost always when folks post asking for help on finding new tools, if you give your location someone will chime in with a good deal on Craigs List etc...

For instance: if you were in AZ or southern CA, I could point you to over 10 good quality used Powermatic 66, or Delta Unisaw, for about $700. Or I'd sell you my Delta contractor saw with 56" bies fence and router table built in. Or someone else would offer.

Honestly, having had a contrator saw for most of my life, then a PM66, and spending a LOT of time looking for tools on craigs list... I honestly think that anyone who wants a full-size cabinet saw (which should be you) has a very good chance of finding one for $700 with 2-3 months of patience. Take the table off, carry it downstairs in a couple pieces.

[Jay Radke]

My 22124 is 5 years old this month. I am giving to a friend this summer, but only because I decided on the similar powered SS.

There may be some, but I don't know anybody that owns or owned a 22124 that isn't/wasn't happy with it.

I too own the 22124. I have had no complaints what so ever with it yet.

[Brent Ring]

I am holding out for a Sawstop, but I would seriously consider a used cabinet or hybrid over any type of contractors saw. The weight is not that big of a deal, nothing that a few friends can't help with, combined with sime disassembly and re-assembly.

Just my .02

[scott spencer]

You might want to check the width of the miter slot on the Craftsman. I was under the impression they were narrower than the standard 3/4", and might limit the jigs and fixtures you can use (Unless you buy Craftsman, and that might be the point)

The 22124, 22116, 22114 all have standard miter slots, and will accept any standard miter gauge or jig that fits a standard miter slot.

[Greg Book]

Greg--
Where are you located? Not in your profile, and almost always when folks post asking for help on finding new tools, if you give your location someone will chime in with a good deal on Craigs List etc...

I'm located in Hartford, CT. I'm probably just going to wait until the Grizzly arrives, unless something spectacular shows up before then. The main reason my wife agreed to a new table saw was the addition of the riving knife... which is an important safety feature in her mind. So riving knife = new saw, which is perfectly fine with me :)

It seems others who have had to wait for back-ordered Grizzlys waited until at least the initial expected date. Haven't seen anyone mention the tool came in earlier. But I'm prepared to wait.

[Steve Schoene]

Getting a saw into a basement is a one time job. With enough friends (and a six-pack or two AFTER the work) you shouldn't have a problem getting a cabinet saw down into a basement. It's a piece of cake if you remove the motor and the top--remember cabinet saws are MUCH easier to realign after you remove the top than a contractor saw, and typically have a smaller footprint than contractor saws, though about the same as a hybrid saw. But they hold alignment well, particularly when in comes to any bevel operations. A cabinet saw is likely to be the last you would buy, while a contractor saw could leave you wanting more down the road.

You might check out craigs list. If you need a saw NOW, then picking up a quick and dirty contractor or building site saw on CL that you could sell again for nearly what you paid might be a way to go.

[Nathan Allen]

The Craftsman 22116, Ridgid R4511, Steel City 35290/35900G, and General International 50-240GT are all manufcatured side by side in the same factory.

All three companies have a riving knife, enclosed base (3/4 in the case of Ridgid) and cabinet mounted trunions. The SC35290 and R4511 have the lower level fence system; split rails and no stock fences. The 22116, 35900G and 50-240GT have the industrial fence, solid guide raid, longer front and back angles for a table board and aux faces.

The fence is what makes the big difference in pricing, since the SC35290 and R4511 are MSRP around $799. The others are in the $999-1,099 range, but the biggest issue is that all parts are initially distributed by Orion/Steel City. Ridgid and Craftsman have parts ordering websites, but SC only offers through distributors, and one thing they've been dismal at is maintaining their distributors. After losing Woodcraft they have effectively been kicked out of the standard retail market. Also after the R4511 Home Depot debacle the 22116 seems to be the most likely model to stick around. I wouldn't be surprised to find a "new" granite or steel hybrid available from Grizzly in the near future using this design, the guts are solid.

I purchased the R4511 because of the price, I like the Hercu-lift and the warrenty. The other companies offer a 5 year warrenty on the top, but the Ridgid "lifetime" seems better on face value. You can still find them available, though the price has moved up to $399. Is this type of saw a 3hp Cabinet? No, but it is an adjustable alignment heavy monster.

[johnny means]

I'm located in Hartford, CT. I'm probably just going to wait until the Grizzly arrives, unless something spectacular shows up before then. The main reason my wife agreed to a new table saw was the addition of the riving knife... which is an important safety feature in her mind. So riving knife = new saw, which is perfectly fine with me :)

It seems others who have had to wait for back-ordered Grizzlys waited until at least the initial expected date. Haven't seen anyone mention the tool came in earlier. But I'm prepared to wait.

Sawstop has a DVD that's scarier than Mike Meyers, Jason Vorhees, and Freddy Kruger all put together. Show her that she should be begging you to get a Sawstop. Worked for me;).

[Jay Knoll]

I'm with Johnny buy the SS contractor saw, or one of the other versions if price allows. Every time my wife is in the shop watching me use the saw she says she is so grateful that we waited until we could afford to buy a SS. It was a MAJOR step up from my Dewalt benchtop.

[glenn bradley]

Just my .02; I don't care if it was a SS, I would never go back to the alignment issues of a contractor style saw ;-)

[Van Huskey]

Just my .02; I don't care if it was a SS, I would never go back to the alignment issues of a contractor style saw ;-)


+1 or maybe 5...

[Greg Book]

I purchased the R4511 because of the price, I like the Hercu-lift and the warrenty. The other companies offer a 5 year warrenty on the top, but the Ridgid "lifetime" seems better on face value. You can still find them available, though the price has moved up to $399. Is this type of saw a 3hp Cabinet? No, but it is an adjustable alignment heavy monster.

Just curious where it's possible to find these R4511's?? I haven't seen them on Home Depot's website or in the local store.