PDA

View Full Version : Retro Lathe Tools



Bob Smalser
11-26-2004, 2:36 PM
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603564.jpg

I don’t consider myself any great shakes as a turner, but I’ve used lathes occasionally.

Back in the late ‘50’s - early ‘60’s when I was the principle sweeper, plank holder, sharpener and gofer in my uncle’s boat yard, he had a graceful old Victorian wood lathe among his line shaft machines converted to electricity. I don’t remember the make, only that it didn’t get much use except for making a few tool handles and the occasional fancy thwart or folding table post…. and I was drawn to it, probably because it was the quietest machine inside the shed. I eventually succeeded in him showing me how to use it one rainy day, and I remember him having me hand hone his ancient lathe tools as the first step. Those tools were all dark-patina’d carbon steel, and I remember how smooth they cut when freshly honed.

During the following 30 years, I worked off and on in several large commercial shops with larger modern lathes and modern HSS tools…mostly Sorby. Most of the work was spindle turning paper-split half and quarter-round moldings for Colonial and Victorian furniture reproductions, and what I remember mostly was sanding. I don’t like sanding, or grinding tools for that matter, and I didn’t remember doing a lot of either with Uncle Paul’s old lathe.

So fast forward another decade, and I have my own newly-acquired lathe and the HSS tools that came with it….and I was back to sanding and grinding again. So why not try a few shop-made carbon tools, says I? The old chisels of Uncle Paul’s childhood are plentiful at the tool auctions and are dirt cheap to boot. So I convert a few using the traditional methods I was taught 40 years ago at the link below and try them:


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=105741#post105741

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603576.jpg

The big inch-and-a-half roughing gouge ground to a 45-degree bevel easily fills its cannel with long, thick shavings.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603585.jpg

The parting tool makes clean shavings in long noodles.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603599.jpg

The flat scraper cuts so fast it buries itself in shavings….

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603604.jpg

…as do the fingernail gouges…

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603784.jpg

…and the skews take such fine whispers of wood decorating the tool rest that the starting point for finishing is now 100 or even 120 grit paper, cutting my sanding in half…

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603800.jpg

…and best of all, I’ll never have to grind these tools again, only touch them up on the fine novaculite stone occasionally as in the link above.

So seriously, why am I the only guy I know using old-fashioned carbon tools in preference to high-speed steel?

Jim Becker
11-26-2004, 3:24 PM
So seriously, why am I the only guy I know using old-fashioned carbon tools in preference to high-speed steel?The type of turning you do can have an impact on how well the tools work for you. For the spindle work you do, I suspect that the carbon steel is somewhat forgiving and don't forget you're also an "expert" sharpener/honer compared to most of us. I have a few carbon steel scrapers from a Delta set I bought long ago and they work well. The skews (when I can manage to make them work) also work well and hold a reasonable edge. But for the bowl and vessel turning I do in largely "angry" wood, the edge on the softer steel would only last a few revolutions, especially in spalted material where there is lots of calcite. Even HHS and powdered metal will dull real fast cutting that stuff...I sharpen about every two minutes when turning in that situation! With a grinder which is quick and efficent with a light touch. But I also hone my hollowing tools wiht a diamond stick 9 out of 10 sharpenings rather than go to the grinder...and they really take a beating on the burl and nasty chunks of wood I like to turn.

The bottom line is most folks don't really know how to hand sharpen and hone well (myself included) and that's something that is absolutely necessary with carbon steel due to the low heat tolerance it has to retain temper.

Kaptan J.W. Meek
04-16-2007, 6:03 PM
First, let me say that I enjoy my carbon steel tools, I have 2 nice spindle gouges, and 2 scrapers, and 3 skews.. My handles are a bit short for some reason, but thats how they were made.. Now PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY!!! but that big skew your using in the picture.. It might just be me, but thats not how I use a skew.. I don't like using a skew, I find it dangerous and scary, but it does what it does better than anything else. I thought the skew was supposed to be laid flat on the work, with the point above, and the angle applied to the spindle, so that it "shaves" the work flat, not to "hi-jack" the thread, but am I wrong on this?

Scott Pearson
04-17-2007, 4:36 AM
OK, I do not turn a lot and I mostly turn pens, small pots and the such, nothing big. So I am not real expert in this either.

That said I will wade in a bit. I use a older Craftsman set of carbon steel tools and enjoy them quite a bit. I hone them more then sharpen them, I use a diamond hone or the leather wheel on the Tormek. The honing process is very quick and does not slow me down.

As for the skew, this is my most used tool, I love that tool. You can get the smoothest surfaces with that tool with a nice planning cut. The picture above with that big skew is not really off in my opinion except that it appears that he is going to try to cut up hill, which could cause a dig.

The angle that he is holding the skew is fine, it appears that he is doing a planning cut to smooth out the spindle.


Scott

George Tokarev
04-17-2007, 7:41 AM
I still have my originals, and they are of much thinner stock and much more cheaply made than yours, which are gems. Carbon steel has the advantage, as you mention, that it touches up quickly, the disadvantage that it can heat and anneal if you're the type who presses to "ride" the bevel. It's not rated for constant contact, so don't use it that way.

As to your rougher, You're looking dangerous. It looks like you're doing a pommel cut approach, and a bit too low at that. Is the first picture what you're doing? It appears by the form of the shavings and the surface that is the case. I like to roll the boy over and run him like a gouge. That way I can still whittle fast, but at the last, get a surface I don't need to pull another tool to finish. It's basic bevel and whittle turning, like old Dave or Roy on the tube.

Chris Barton
04-17-2007, 7:58 AM
Hi Bob,

Thanks again for a very interesting post and for visiting us here in latheland and taking a break from neanderville. There are lots of sets of tools like what you show floating around on the flea markets and such. They can be managed as good handy tools not to mention their interest as living pieces of woodworking history. Sharp tools work. All tools can be made sharp. Some are just easier than others. I guess it's the old "Indian vs arrow" thing. Since I didn't see your turning form (but, the finished product looks fine!) I'll leave commentary to the more experienced.

Steve Kubien
04-17-2007, 12:41 PM
It doesn't look to me as though Bob's lathe is running in any of the pictures he posted and, further, it looks to me like the tools are "posing" for some of the shots. Anyone who has followed Bob's posts for any period of time will know that he knows the sharp end of a hammer from the blunt one. I say we leave his supposed technique alone because we can't really see what's going on anyway. But that's just my opinion and, of course, we can all do as we like.

As for why we don't use older tools as much in turning today?... Personally I am not as interested in rehabbing old tools as I once was. I am at a point right now where I want to learn to use the tools, control them, and develop nice pleasing shapes. Newer HSS and exotic indestructo-metals are allowing me to do exactly this. I suppose someday when I run across of bucket of rust at a flea market I will rescue them for another day but right now I doubt I would even notice them.

But, man, those are some pretty tools. Nice job.

Steve Kubien

Don Orr
04-17-2007, 1:39 PM
Great post Bob. Thanks for reminding us how things got done before all the fancy HSS & PM technology got here. As any hand-tool woodworker already knows, regular carbon steel will refine to a sharper edge than HSS, but does not hold up to the rigors of agressive turning. Remember folks that a 4" diameter piece of wood rotating at 1000RPM is eqivalent to about 1000 surface feet of wood passing that cutting edge in 1 minute.Very tough on carbon steel. And as George said, rubbing the bevel for long periods of cutting can take the temper out due to friction. I have and use a couple carbon steel tools for certain finishing tasks but mostly use HSS myself.

Those are great tools you have shown us and it looks like they are in good hands. I love old tools so thanks for sharing these.

Kevin McPeek
04-17-2007, 2:24 PM
Its kind of like what happened to rotary phones, nothing wrong with them and they make calls just fine but you just don't use them anymore. Or like when I go geocaching I use my GPS, when I could get there with a map and compass (still in the pack just in case) but a GPS just makes things a lot easier, quicker, and more fun.
The list is endless.
But if you get enjoyment from rehabing old tools then by all means have at it, but personally I'd rather be working with them than on them.