Rip Saw Vs. Scrub Plane

[jeff phillips]

So, I've decided that my dining room table project is going to be 100% hand tools.... or at least so far as I don't get frustrated and chuck my #8 across my garage.

To that end, the top, and a great deal of the base, is being constructed out of 8/4 stock, that was purchased hit and miss planed, and not edged at all. dressing the faces doesn't generally require a great deal of stock removal; however, the edges are proving to be problematic. Most of the boards have a line of sapwood ranging from 1/4" to around 1" wide down one edge. So far I have removed the sapwood using a scrub plane to hog it out, and while effective, it is a large amount of work, as these boards are about 6' long.

I don't own a panel saw, and I'm wondering if if a rip saw would be a more effective way of edging these boards than the scrub plane. I don't mind the sweating hard work part so much, as I am not sure if I am just really making things hard on myself.

[Andrew Gibson]

I would definitely reach for a rip saw first. I would think it would be much easier and faster to get a strait cut

[John Schreiber]

Another option before using the scrub plane is to get rid of the high spots with a hatchet. With a bit of practice I can chop to an 1/8th of an inch and it's a lot faster than scrubbing.

[Christian Castillo]

Agreed, a hatchet would be the fastest method to remove material. I've read that a side/broad/hewing hatchet are particularly the best type for this work.

[Russell Sansom]

The operation should go very quickly and easily if you have a sharp rip saw and a semblance of a sawing bench. If it doesn't, take a few minutes and sharpen the saw.

[David Weaver]

I would definitely rip it. If you don't have a rip saw, now's your chance to get one. If you don't want to spend much money, look for something in the 5ppi range in a disston D8. As long as the blade is straight and the teeth are OK, you're not in for much work to get it singing.

[jeff phillips]

So, I did have it in my budget to buy a hand saw for this project; however, I was looking at getting a LN crosscut panel saw for cutting the table down to its final length once the glue-up for the top is done. How well will a saw filed rip perform when pressed into service for crosscutting?

[David Weaver]

One of the appropriate tooth count to cut inch to 2 inch stock (something in the 4.5 or 5 ppi range) will not crosscut well - I don't know if anyone would have the stones to try. You don't want a finer cut ripsaw for sizing boards, either (if you do both a lot of 4/4 and 8/4 sized stuff, it's actually nice to have two - one in the 4 ppi range, and one 5 1/2. (that's just my opinion on tooth count and two saws - minimizes labor)

Vintage panel saws still can't be remotely touched by new saws for value. There are too many out there that are as good as anything made now and need little more than a joint and file.

I'm sure the LN panel saw is nice, but there are better options in terms of price vs. performance.

And I'm by no means an LN hater - I have a lot of LN stuff. This is just one of the things where I think you almost need to be an LN collector to make sense of the cost of the panel saw vs. the scads of great user vintage saws out there.

You can, I guess, if you're new to saws, always make the defensible argument that it's nice to have one good nice new saw so you know what to expect out of the old ones. If you did spring for the LN saw in crosscut, you could still get a cheap old rip saw - an atkins 53 or something that doesn't fetch much because it has no collector value. If I had an extra one, I'd just send it to you. Maybe a creeker will offer something up cheap. Of the three rips I've gotten, two are d8 thumbholes that were $5 and $15, respectively, and the third was $65, but it's a #12, and it's the collector thing again that drives that up. A large rip saw with decent teeth is about the easiest thing you'll find to file, and you'll do a serviceable good job whether you want to or not the first time because there just isn't much to it. A 10 or 12 ppi crosscut saw that isn't in great shape may be more difficult as a first-sharpen.

[jeff phillips]

I really don't have a huge bent towards a LN saw, It just seems that between the new manufacturers, they all seem to cost about the same, and my local Woodcraft still has a bunch of LN stock left.

As for an older saw, I don't even know what I'm looking for. I've seen reference to many Disston model numbers, but between not knowing what I'm looking for, and not kowing where to get one, I had shied away from that option.

I looked at Bad Axe Toolworks, and they don't currently have anything listed on their site for an older refurbished saw. Ideally, whatever I purchased would already be sharpened, because with my lack of experience, I would't know good from bad. That being said, I'd still be up for trying to to sharpen from scratch, as long as there was a place I could order an older saw from that would honestly represent the condition so I was sure I wasn't getting something with a bent sawplate, or some other fatal problem.

If someone can point me in a direction, that woudl be much appreciated.

[Matt Radtke]

Well, if you are willing to sell your soul and become a "fan" of Bad Ax on Facebook, he just listed his vintage restores there at 10% off. They'll be on his site come friday.

[Mike Olson]

If you have the money to spend i would put it towards a new rip saw as cross cut saws are much more easily found. At least in my area just about every estate sale has at least 1 decent crosscut saw. Because crosscut saws can be used to rip i guess not too many people felt the need to purchase one specific for rip. I have been hitting estate sales regularly for about 6 months now and have only come across 1 rip saw.

[Jim Koepke]

If you have the money to spend i would put it towards a new rip saw as cross cut saws are much more easily found. At least in my area just about every estate sale has at least 1 decent crosscut saw. Because crosscut saws can be used to rip i guess not too many people felt the need to purchase one specific for rip. I have been hitting estate sales regularly for about 6 months now and have only come across 1 rip saw.

Mike,

I think you have this backwards. A rip saw will cut cross grain, but trying to rip with a crosscut saw can be slow torture.

jim

[Mike Olson]

Mike,

I think you have this backwards. A rip saw will cut cross grain, but trying to rip with a crosscut saw can be slow torture.

jim

Slow torture yes, but it works. When i started Neander i only had a KeyStone K4 crosscut that I used to rip a piece of Oak firewood into slabs for a project. it took me several days but the surface barely had to be planed. Using a rip saw as crosscut will blow out the edge really badly.

[Jim Koepke]

Slow torture yes, but it works. When i started Neander i only had a KeyStone K4 crosscut that I used to rip a piece of Oak firewood into slabs for a project. it took me several days but the surface barely had to be planed. Using a rip saw as crosscut will blow out the edge really badly.

Yes, a lot of things will work, some things just work so much better. My preference would be to do a few minutes planing instead of a few days sawing.

The blow out along the edge can be a function of the tpi and if the line is marked with a knife all around, the blow out will be on the waste side. If both ends are going to be used as finished ends, just make parallel knife marks a little more than a saw kerf apart.

Here is a trial I did with a cross cut and a rip saw cutting across a piece of wood.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1232934

jtk

[David Weaver]

If you have the money to spend i would put it towards a new rip saw as cross cut saws are much more easily found. At least in my area just about every estate sale has at least 1 decent crosscut saw. Because crosscut saws can be used to rip i guess not too many people felt the need to purchase one specific for rip. I have been hitting estate sales regularly for about 6 months now and have only come across 1 rip saw.

They are a little harder to find than the standard toolbox 8ppi crosscuts, but they aren't hard to find online. I think the average rough carpenter probably didn't rip a lot of long boards, nor did the homeowner, thus the difference in number of saws - cabinetmakers and maybe trim carpenters, maybe had a use for large rip saws? Who knows. But they're out there plenty.

I got one from Clint Jones (the #12), one from another guy on WN (who goes by Lilrichard - good guy) and I think the third I got three saws from Walt Quadrato all at one time - all of them with some sort of affliction that didn't involve kinked/bent blades or missing or misshapen teeth - and they were $20 for all three. The first two I got really recently, because I went away from western saws for a while and came back not long ago for dimensioning. The one from Walt I got a long time ago. Even saws with afflictions have gotten more expensive than 3 for $20 since then. I think other than the really well known guys, who have always had expensive saws, the basic saws themselves seem to have almost tripled in price over the last three years.

If a 5 or 6 ppi rip saw can be found for $20, and the seller says it's straight and not missing teeth, then I think it's worth the risk. If it can't be repaired, the tote and sawnuts can always be kept and the blade scored and snapped into scrapers.

[Joel Goodman]

If someone can point me in a direction, that woudl be much appreciated.

If you contact Daryl Weir he can probably supply you with a sharpened saw ready for work. He is an excellent sharpener and is an honest guy. Tell him what your needs are and see what he's got. His email is weir@grics.net . I bought two saws from him and they are excellent and as described.

[David Weaver]

If you contact Daryl Weir he can probably supply you with a sharpened saw ready for work. He is an excellent sharpener and is an honest guy. Tell him what your needs are and see what he's got. His email is weir@grics.net . I bought two saws from him and they are excellent and as described.

His sharpening jobs are pure eyecandy, too. I don't know what he has, but he might have (two) saws that will fit the bill for the same price as one LN. There's no way a saw he's refurbished and sharpened takes a back seat to anything.

[Joel Goodman]

Way cheaper than a new LN! But not as bright and shiny.

[Rick Rutten]

Here is the link for the Bad Axe facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=390516585103&topic=14074 The saws were just posted there today as mentioned earlier.

I have no connection to Bad Axe other than being a current customer.

Rick

[jeff phillips]

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered two saws from Bad Axe Toolworks. A D8 for ripping and a No. 7 for crosscutting. Thank you all for your input. Now I've just gotta wait until I get them to see how it works.

[Mike Olson]

i believe you will be very happy. I've never used a D8. I just completed my collection of 7's. 3ppi Rip, a panel, and a crosscut saw.

I sharpened and set them all myself and am very happy. "since i've never sharpened a saw prior to them i'm sure yours will be even better.:rolleyes:"


oh and Jim, i was referring to using my 3ppi rip saw for cross cutting when i said it would do bad things. I use my Veritas 14ppi rip dovetail saw for cross cutting all the time on small pieces and it's fine.

[Rick Rutten]

Jeff I have a Bad Axe on the way as well (just built today!) Although it is a bit out of my budget I got it for a couple of reasons:
1. I don't have any back saws except a 26" miter that I found on e-bay and a small LV dovetail.
2. I wanted to see what a really well sharpened saw cut like. If it is as others have previously described in reviews that level of shaprpening will become my benchmark. I have five Disstons in the garage. I have sharpened four and improved the performance of maybe two. I have a lot to learn. With three Wenzloff kits on the way I need a good point of reference.

Rick

[David Weaver]

Well, I bit the bullet and ordered two saws from Bad Axe Toolworks. A D8 for ripping and a No. 7 for crosscutting. Thank you all for your input. Now I've just gotta wait until I get them to see how it works.

I'm sure they'll be killer. You'll get a very good sense of whether you like american pattern (D8) or english pattern (#7) type saws, or both.

[Chris Friesen]

While I'm as big a fan of buying tools as the next guy, the quickest way to remove 1/4" to 1" from the edge of a board is going to be hatchet, then scrub/fore/jointer/smooth planes.

Ripping by hand is too much like work, especially in 8/4.