Locating drain tiles?

[Matt Meiser]

I need to locate some drain tiles that run from our house to the ditch out front. They will be installing a gas main down our road in about 2 weeks and I'm supposed to mark their location. I know roughly where 2 are and I think there may be a 3rd. However even the 2 I know of I haven't been able to locate since the ditches are full of cattails, dead cattail debris and water. The third I suspect may exist but I'm not even positive. Any suggestions on locating them? I've using a metal probe and probing the ground but that hasn't worked yet. I'm wondering if I could use some kind of water soluble dye dumped down where the downspouts are attached and in my sump pump? But I'm not sure what I could use--first thought was to dump some bright red latex paint into a 5 gallon bucket of water. Any suggestions?

[John Shuk]

Get the dye that they use for locating septic leaks. Shouldn't be too hard to find.

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks--didn't know there was such a thing.

[Jerome Stanek]

When I need to find electric lines or water lines I witch them haven't been off more than a couple inches. Then I probe

[Joe Pelonio]

We use dye for testing sewer connections quite often at work. Some municipalities now require die tests to prevent runoff in the sanitary sewer as a condition of property sales. It's probably going to become a big industry in the future. Here are a couple of suppliers, but a good local plumbing supply should carry it.

http://www.prestodye.com/water-trace.html
http://www.brightdyes.com/products/tablets.html

[John Keeton]

When I need to find electric lines or water lines I witch them haven't been off more than a couple inches. Then I probeI agree. I have not personally witched (divined), but I have watched it done several times. In fact, this past week, my plumber came out and located a drain line for me instantly with is divining rods.

[Matt Meiser]

I need to call the gas company back tomorrow. They did the survey for the main placement in front of our house today. It looks to me like they might be installing the main between the ditch and the road instead of on the other side of the ditch from the road as I thought. If that's the case they won't even bother my drains and the way I'm going to insist they run the service line from the main to my house they won't encounter any either until they get right to where the meter is going.

I've never seen anything like this before. They are surveying a line down basically the centerline of the roads. Every 100' or so they shoot a spike with fluorescent pink feathers into the road. Looks kind of cool looking down the road.

[Lee Schierer]

Try this: Take a steel coat hangar and cut the long side in the center. Make cuts on the other sides, the same length. Bend into L shapes. Hold each "L" shape loosely in your hands as if you were holding 2 pop cans tilting slightly away from you. As you walk over the pipes or live electrical lines (be careful) the 2 upside down "L"s will point or align with each other. It is very accurate. This is also the way to find a water table, a spot to sink a well.

Actually any type of conductive wire will work.

It's spooky, but it does work for most people.

[Matt Meiser]

Spooky, but I just tried over the where the electrical from the house to the shop runs and it consistently crossed in the same place. I'll try later where I think the drains are and report back.

[Chris Damm]

I find that method works well for me. The coat hangers will cross even in a 40 mph wind. I can locate sewer pipe, water veins and lines, and gas lines. It doesn't work for everybody. My wife tried it and nothing happens.

[Joe Chritz]

Don't worry about it the trencher will find them for you. :D

When a friend of mine was building his house the electric contractor ran the ditch witch right through his concrete septic tank. Apparently they didn't notice the chunks of concrete flinging all over. :eek:

Witching is weird, it freaks me out. I put it right there with clowns and spiders.

Joe

[John Keeton]

Witching is weird, it freaks me out. I put it right there with clowns and spiders.

JoeJoe, the first time I saw this done, I was in college and working for a utility company. They needed to dig up a good portion of the large back parking lot that was full of assorted suppy lines for the operation. No one had a map. One of the licensed engineers went to his truck and got a set of rods. My first thought was - this is crazy, it can't possibly work. 30 minutes later, he had located every line in the parking lot - accurately!

I think a better way to hold the coat hanger pieces is to take a couple of sections of wood dowels, with holes drilled through them to hold the "L" portion. Apparently, the loose grip is the key, and the dowels allow for free movement.

Not sure why it works, but it does!!

[Pat Germain]

OK, what's the story with these "divining rods"? Every scientific examination of these things proves they are absolutely bogus with no legitimate function whatsoever. Yet, a lot of people report they are absolutely effective every time. :confused:

From Wikipedia: "Dowsing appears to have arisen in the context of Renaissance magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_magic) in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renaissance), and it remains popular among believers in Forteana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forteana) or radiesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiesthesia)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divining_rods#cite_note-2) although there is no accepted scientific rationale behind the concept and no scientific evidence that it is effective."

[Matt Meiser]

That's what I've read too. I'm going out at lunch to try to locate those drains.

[Pat Germain]

Hey, if it works, it works. Scientific reports be damned. :)

[David G Baker]

When I was a kid I used a dog to help me find drains. Haven't tried dowsing yet but it is on my list of things to try.

[Jerome Stanek]

when I was installing drugstore equipment in a new store I had to find an electric line under the concrete. I used my rods and told the electrician it was right here. He argued with me because he said he installed it and it was over about 2 feet. I said we need the floor outlet where I found the line so he dug there and didn't hit it. He went back and cut a new line in the floor to the hole he had dug and laid the conduit in it the he had to put a floor box in. He wasn't quit deep enough so he dug down just another 2 inches an he hit the original line boy was he pissed. He said he was sure that I was wrong.

[Lee Schierer]

OK, what's the story with these "divining rods"? Every scientific examination of these things proves they are absolutely bogus with no legitimate function whatsoever. Yet, a lot of people report they are absolutely effective every time. :confused:

From Wikipedia: "Dowsing appears to have arisen in the context of Renaissance magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_magic) in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Renaissance), and it remains popular among believers in Forteana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forteana) or radiesthesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiesthesia)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divining_rods#cite_note-2) although there is no accepted scientific rationale behind the concept and no scientific evidence that it is effective."

I believe that science says they do work, but they really can't explain exactly how they work. The military used metal rods to locate tunnels in Viet Nam. Personally I was an extreme skeptic until I tried it. Blindfolded, I located underground pipes in my yard after having my wife wander me randomly around the yard. I also watched a friend who had never seen in my yard accurate locate underground drains that I installed and weren't know to anyone else. My neighbor drilled 4-5 wells and didn't find adequate water to supply his dairy farm. He had a person come in and dowse his land and they found a excellent well on the first try.

[Pat Germain]

Actually, Lee, I did some digging. Science says it's completely bogus and no more effective than random chance. But as I said earlier, if it works for you, it works for you.

Science the Okapi was a mythical animal until someone actually found one. Now we can see them in the zoo.

[Von Bickley]

I have a personal friend that is in the "Well & Pump" business that uses a cherry branch to find water. I have personally seen well drillers call him after they have drilled several wells and not hit any water, get him to find the water for them.

I have seen him find water when the well drillers could only drill dry holes. :D

[Dan Friedrichs]

I have a personal friend that is in the "Well & Pump" business that uses a cherry branch to find water.

And you think this is real? C'mon - how does the water affect the branch in any way?

I'm usually quite impressed with the vast knowledge and intelligence of people on this board, but....seriously? Water witching?

Just think of all the things modern science can do: We can build a microscope that can image an individual atom. We can build a medical device that can perceive the magnetic fields generated by the electrical activity in your brain, and use it to form a picture of what you're thinking about. We can give you an implant that allows you to move a prosthetic limb just by thinking about it. Modern science has incredible abilities and can explain just about everything. And you continue to believe there is some "magical" force making your coat hangers move?

[Von Bickley]

Nobody has to believe it works, my father-in-law doesn't. This man has put down 2 wells for me. One well was 52 feet deep and the other well was 55 feet. Both wells would pump over 50 GPM.

[Chris Damm]

I know there is no scientific basis for it to work but it does. When they were hooking up my brother's sewer line to the new main they dug where the map said the stub was located. They couldn't find it. I got out my bent coat hangers and found it 75' from where the map said it was on the first try. The college student that was making the map must have had a hangover that day! The installation co. called me to find a couple of more in the same area that summer.

[Matt Meiser]

Well, I found both, right where the wires crossed. First one took three tries. I dug down and didn't find anything. Frustrated I tried again, dug and didn't find anything about 2' away. It was right between the two. What threw me was that it runs at an angle and I was checking where I could walk, but digging at the edge of the ditch.

I couldn't find a third so I used a small amount (1 cup, maybe?) of bright green latex paint as a dye, dumped it into one of the downspout lines and started a hose running down there. About 5 minutes later I got a little green out of the one drain so I'm pretty sure there's only one. I thought there might be one on each side. I need to do the same with the sump pump, but I'm pretty sure it goes into the same line.

[Jason Roehl]

And you think this is real? C'mon - how does the water affect the branch in any way?

I'm usually quite impressed with the vast knowledge and intelligence of people on this board, but....seriously? Water witching?

Just think of all the things modern science can do: We can build a microscope that can image an individual atom. We can build a medical device that can perceive the magnetic fields generated by the electrical activity in your brain, and use it to form a picture of what you're thinking about. We can give you an implant that allows you to move a prosthetic limb just by thinking about it. Modern science has incredible abilities and can explain just about everything. And you continue to believe there is some "magical" force making your coat hangers move?

As of this past Saturday morning, I would have been right there with you. Right up until I had a friend who has been in the local Water Works for 15 years or so come out and take a look at our church's well. He wanted to see where the line came out of the wellhead, so he made an L out of a single coat hanger and every time he walked over the line, the coat hanger would point straight at the wellhead. I gave him all sorts of grief about it. Then his teenage boy gave it a try and had the same results. So I grabbed it and had no problems whatsoever getting it to work. I even brought it home to try on my own water service line, which I KNOW where it is (can see a slight depression going away from the meter pit), and it worked just fine.

This same friend said that he's seen all kinds of old timers use a y-shaped branch to find water, too. The way that works is that you hold the branch at the ends of the forked portion, close to your chest, and when you cross a line, water, etc., the other end of the branch will wiggle up and down.

Myself, I suspect there is some sort of magnetism involved, but I'll repeat it--I went from a total skeptic to a full-fledged believer in an instant. There was no denying what that coat hanger was doing in my hand--the pull is pretty strong.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I know there is no scientific basis for it to work but it does.


By definition, I believe that means it's "magic".

Jason - want to send me one of those magnetic pieces of wood? :rolleyes:

It "works" because you have some idea of where the wire/water/pipe is, so you unintentionally deflect your hand a little to CAUSE the rod to move at that point.

If you really believe that it works, you should do a simple controlled test. In my younger years, I did this test: I got 2 rods, and had a helper blindfold me and spin me around until I was disoriented. I then walked about on a flat yard that I knew had 1 large electric line (~18" below surface), a water line (~8' below surface), and a metal gas line (~36" below surface). I had the helper stick a flag in the ground each time the rods crossed.
Needless to say, the flags didn't in any way correlate to the position of any of the lines.

If you actually believe this "magic" - go try that test yourself.

I don't want to sound mean or rude, here, but suggesting that some unknown phenomenon can cause you to "divine" the location of a pipe or water is just silly. Intelligent adults do not believe in "magic"!

[Jason Roehl]

By definition, I believe that means it's "magic".

Jason - want to send me one of those magnetic pieces of wood? :rolleyes:

Well, considering even the dryest of wood contains water, which is quite polar in nature (ever deflect a stream of water from the tap with a comb that you've run through your hair?), a stick being affected by a magnetic field isn't that big of a stretch. Honestly, I'm still skeptical about the wood thing because I haven't actually seen that one, but after the other way worked, the way a friend (whom I would trust with my life) told me...


It "works" because you have some idea of where the wire/water/pipe is, so you unintentionally deflect your hand a little to CAUSE the rod to move at that point.

Okay, I know you're skeptical, but there is some technique to it. The L-shaped rod has to be balanced in your hand. You won't get that when you're blindfolded. What you just said is borderline an insult to me (I'M NOT TAKING IT AS SUCH). I am very much a scientifically-minded, logically-thinking, good-at-math, like-to-see-proof person. I did not deflect my hand to make it move--I felt it pull that way, and any hand deflection I did was to compensate for the sudden change in balance when it did move--in other words, I moved my hand in such a way that would normally move it the OPPOSITE way.


If you really believe that it works, you should do a simple controlled test. In my younger years, I did this test: I got 2 rods, and had a helper blindfold me and spin me around until I was disoriented. I then walked about on a flat yard that I knew had 1 large electric line (~18" below surface), a water line (~8' below surface), and a metal gas line (~36" below surface). I had the helper stick a flag in the ground each time the rods crossed.
Needless to say, the flags didn't in any way correlate to the position of any of the lines.

If you actually believe this "magic" - go try that test yourself.

Like I said above, the blindfold handicaps you--it's very important to have the rod balanced, but free to move. The real test would be to make a device that allows the rod to move freely with a couple of spirit levels on it that the user could watch to keep it level. Then use it on an unknown (to the user) property that has an accurate map available. I've done it twice now--which is very little experience--and I'm confident I could map out water (and possible electrical) lines on someone's property with ease with a single coat hanger and a can of marking paint.


I don't want to sound mean or rude, here, but suggesting that some unknown phenomenon can cause you to "divine" the location of a pipe or water is just silly. Intelligent adults do not believe in "magic"!

"Divining" and "witching" are legacy terms from a time long ago when magnetism and many, many other aspects of unseen forces of nature were not understood.

[David G Baker]

Dan F,
Don't reject it because you don't understand it. It has worked for centuries without a scientific explanation.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Dan F,
Don't reject it because you don't understand it. It has worked for centuries without a scientific explanation.

That's the thing - it DOESN'T work. For instance, see:
Ongley, P, "New Zealand Diviners". New Zealand Journal of Science and Technology 30: 38–54.

Summary: 58 "skilled" dowsers were asked to locate water. None did better than chance.


Sorry, but "my-cousin's-uncle's-friend-has-been-doing-this-for-years" just doesn't hold up against a controlled scientific study, as I cited above.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Well, considering even the dryest of wood contains water,


So any wet object should work, right? It doesn't need to be a "cherry stick"? That's good - I ran out of cherry sticks, and forgot to pick more up when I was stocking up on snake oil and rabbit's feet.

(I mean that in good humor :D)




The real test would be to ...
Yes, a real test would be a controlled scientific experiment, just as you described. Thankfully for us, it's been done many, many times. For examples:
-The study I cited to David
-Hines, Terence (2003). Pseudoscience and the Paranormal (Second ed.). Amherst, New York: Prometheus Books. p. 420


And if you genuinely want to do the test yourself - try one other thing: replace your metal rods (which are affected by magnetic forces), with something absolutely non-polar. Maybe a plastic coat hanger. It will still work (because it's caused by expectency effects that you are unintentionally inducing).


Such fervent belief in something completely debunked by science is, well...stupid. I suppose such inability to evaluate claims in a scientific manner is why people spend ~$150million/year on "magnetic healing" bracelets.

I hope none of this sounds "mean" - it's interesting to have a polite discussion about this topic.

[Jason Roehl]

Dan, I wish I were in CO right now so that I could show you. I'd find your water line in a heartbeat (electrical too, probably, though I haven't tried it on those yet) despite never having been on your property.

I haven't read the scientific experiments, but all I can say is that in their variable elimination somehow they eliminated the part that makes it work, whether that's magnetism or not (BTW, plastic can hold a static charge...).

As for expectency, you'll just have to take my word on that one. By trade, I'm a painter--I have very steady hands. It's actually kind of difficult to get the L-rod to balance pointing straight out in front of you, but once I did, I could walk all over the place real slow and it would stay there--until I walked over the water line and it swung to be perfectly in line with the uh, line.

You know what the old saying is: "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they're not."

Care to explain what makes gravity work? Science has come up zero on that one, yet we use it every day because it's not just a suggestion or good idea--it's the law. ;)

I'd contend that fervent belief in "science" that's been debunked by millions of observers is also not so smart... (which really just means the science is incomplete).

[Dan Friedrichs]

I haven't read the scientific experiments, but all I can say is that in their variable elimination somehow they eliminated the part that makes it work, whether that's magnetism or not

Perhaps, but I'll trust the professional scientists and statisticians on that one.



(BTW, plastic can hold a static charge...).
Static charges, by definition, are not moving - thus, they will not create a magnetic field. A moving electric field is needed to generate a magnetic field (by Ampere's law).



Care to explain what makes gravity work? Science has come up zero on that one,
I guess I've never heard that one. I thought the general theory of relativity explained gravity.




Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this. At the very least, though, I suspect we agree that dowsing is something that could be scientifically tested by curious minds. However, I think the statistical analysis to determine whether or not the results are significant (beyond chance) may be beyond both of us.

[Jason Roehl]

Perhaps, but I'll trust the professional scientists and statisticians on that one.


Static charges, by definition, are not moving - thus, they will not create a magnetic field. A moving electric field is needed to generate a magnetic field (by Ampere's law).

Thanks for the refresher, but I remembered that from my days of AP Physics in HS, and again in Physics 1xx at Purdue (where I studied EE for a time). I only said that the plastic hanger would hold a static charge, not create a magnetic field--the moving water in the ground/pipe is more likely to create the magnetic field, thus making the dowsing rod of whatever polar material (or with whatever charge on it) move in some fashion.


I guess I've never heard that one. I thought the general theory of relativity explained gravity.Quantifies, yes. Explains, no. There's been nothing from the scientific community on the actual mechanism of gravity, only quantifications and predictions of its effects.


Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this. At the very least, though, I suspect we agree that dowsing is something that could be scientifically tested by curious minds. However, I think the statistical analysis to determine whether or not the results are significant (beyond chance) may be beyond both of us.The scientific testing has only shown that it SHOULDN'T work. A lot of science has been thrown out the window in the last 100 years by what we've done. Sometimes the explanations take years to catch up with the accomplishments. Remain a skeptic if you like--you're just missing out on what I now know (and it's only been 4 days now) to be a useful skill. I think it's cooler than sliced bread. I'm even half-tempted to just pick somebody's yard at random and go mark it, then call for a dig locate, preferably yours, but you're a little far away.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dan,

For the record....I don't believe in Big Foot...

I work with large supercon magnets professionally. I was working on a 3Tesla system today. I work with RF energy, x-ray and have worked with nuclear medicine and isotopes a little. I work with some fairly sophisticated electronics and have since 1969.

That being said, when I look at the advances that have happened with science and engineering in the last 40-50 years, I will tell you I think we have just scratched the surface and man hasn't really begun to understand a fraction of the makeup of this world.

I don't know whether to believe in dowsing or divining or not but...I will tell you there are a lot of people who do and it would not surprise me if someday science found a reason to prove that it works.

An example of my caution to condemn something like that. As a young child, my paternal grandmother used to say.....the arthritis in my joints tells me there's a storm coming. Now in the 50's and 60's....and yes that was the 1950's and 1960's....the science and medical experts all denounced that as hog wash. Then in 1978 I was on my way to a hospital to work on a CT scanner...the news radio station I was listening to....broke the news that the AMA finally decided that there might be some fact to the old idea that people with arthritis could sense changes in weather due to sensitivity in their joints and the changes in air pressure that accompanied those changing weather fronts. My paternal grandmother had been dead for 7 years and I owed her an apology for doubting what she'd said.

Back to the Big Foot thing.....when they can show me a body of one, I'll believe it. But....I will tell you as one who has done some serious elk hunting in the Pacific Northwest......The brush is thick enough and the timber is thick enough....that if there was something with some reasonable intelligence out there ....if it didn't want to be seen, it wouldn't be seen.

I have cut my own tracks in the snow only to find bear tracks superimposed over the tracks I'd made earlier that day. It's spooky.

That being said....I have never seen tracks of a Big Foot and haven't seen a carcus yet either. Therefore, I don't believe in them.

[Pat Germain]

To be fair, I think it's important to point out science does not suggest dowsing can't work or shouldn't work. Rather, there is currently no known reason to explain what would make it work. That really is different.

Multiple studies have applied the scientific method to dowsing. That is, they attempted to demonstrate whether it was any better than random chance. Again and again, dowsing was proven to be no better than random chance. That's what the scientific method is all about. It doesn't assume anything. It just attempts to demonstrate if something is observable and repeatable. But it's certainly possible the studies, thus far, have been flawed.

It's the same with so-called psychic phenomenon. Many people believe it's real. They can give many examples of it. We hear stories of "psychics" helping police solve crime and find missing people. But the reality is there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that it's real. Nobody, not once, ever, has actually demonstrated any kind of psychic ability whatsoever. Once again, science isn't saying it can't be real. It's just saying there's no evidence to suggest it's real.

[George Sanders]

There are a lot of things science can't explain and water witching is one of them. I work for a farmer and I often use wire coat hangers mounted in dowel rods to find field tile. I did it to find my sewer drain at home. It works for me. I can't explain it, and I don't care because it works.

[Chris Damm]

There are a lot of things science can't explain and water witching is one of them. I work for a farmer and I often use wire coat hangers mounted in dowel rods to find field tile. I did it to find my sewer drain at home. It works for me. I can't explain it, and I don't care because it works.

Exactly! Not everybody can get it to work but if you can it is a real timesaver.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks for the refresher, but I remembered that from my days of AP Physics in HS, and again in Physics 1xx at Purdue (where I studied EE for a time). I only said that the plastic hanger would hold a static charge, not create a magnetic field--the moving water in the ground/pipe is more likely to create the magnetic field, thus making the dowsing rod of whatever polar material (or with whatever charge on it) move in some fashion.

Moving water does not create a magnetic field. Moving electric current does, but you certainly won't have an E-field across conductive water and/or earth.

Also, a magnetic field has no influence on a static E-field.

No disrespect intended, but I think this is a great example of "knowing just enough to be dangerous".


Believe whatever you want, guys, but as Pat said, many controlled scientific studies have shown that dowsing is no better than chance.

[John Keeton]

Believe whatever you want, guys, but as Pat said, many controlled scientific studies have shown that dowsing is no better than chance.Dan, my plumber is also the gentleman that installed my geothermal system. He has a very good business, and has been doing this type of work for over 35 years. He is intelligent and well educated. He says that divining works for him about 75% of the time. That is well above the "chance" mark.

I am in the camp that believes there are many things about our world for which we may never have an explanation. This makes for a very interesting exchange, and most of us will hold differing opinions on the topic.

But, I can say this - there is nothing more convincing than watching someone walk across ground, holding a dowel in each hand that is carrying a piece of metal rod, and watching those rods come together dramatically over a spot that, in fact, has a water line under it!! Because of the dowels, he could exert no force on the rods. There was some sort of external force.

It just happens - believe it or not. Real - yes! Explainable - no!

[Dan Friedrichs]

Because of the dowels, he could exert no force on the rods. There was some sort of external force.


I believe the argument is that, consciously or not, he tilts his hand slightly inward, which causes the rod to deflect. Expectancy effect may be causing him to do this without realizing it.

I guess some people just can't be convinced. To me, though, a report of a controlled scientific experiment carried out by investigators who know how to design experiments and interpret the data properly is overwhelmingly more convincing than anecdotes.

[Lee Schierer]

I believe the argument is that, consciously or not, he tilts his hand slightly inward, which causes the rod to deflect. Expectancy effect may be causing him to do this without realizing it.

I guess some people just can't be convinced. To me, though, a report of a controlled scientific experiment carried out by investigators who know how to design experiments and interpret the data properly is overwhelmingly more convincing than anecdotes.

How does a person who has never been in an area before locate underground utilities that there is no public record of an no visible signs like indentation or humps locate pipes?

According to science (aerodynamics) bumblebees have too high a weight to lift ratio to fly, but they can not only fly, but hover and do it with ease.

[Dan Friedrichs]

How does a person who has never been in an area before locate underground utilities that there is no public record of an no visible signs like indentation or humps locate pipes?
They don't. Read the study I cited earlier.




According to science (aerodynamics) bumblebees have too high a weight to lift ratio to fly, but they can not only fly, but hover and do it with ease.

So it must be magic?
Or perhaps just a myth, that is easily debunked in about 10 seconds using Google:

"It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle."


--From the Wiki article on "Bumblebee". It goes on to explain that many people believe the origin of that myth to be a joke someone made at a dinner party.

[Jason Roehl]

Moving water does not create a magnetic field. Moving electric current does, but you certainly won't have an E-field across conductive water and/or earth.

Again, water is a polar molecule--you can't discount what it does when it flows. Run a comb through your hair and stick it next to a trickle from your kitchen faucet. There's an interaction between the two. Not to mention, the power companies use the earth as part of their circuit, so there's current there--any water would conduct that electricity (admittedly small) better than the surrounding dirt.


No disrespect intended, but I think this is a great example of "knowing just enough to be dangerous".None taken.

No disrespect intended, but by your photo and your profile, you're probably a pretty young guy (early 20's?). I'm a recent WITNESS to the phenomenon, prior to that, I was a STAUNCH skeptic. I've got a few years on you, and there are a whole bunch of people here and that I know around me who have a whole lot of experience with this phenomenon, and you've basically called them all liars because of a few scientific studies. Scientific studies have wrong conclusions all the time. Scientific experiments fail all the time due to unforeseen events, variables and phenomena (and fraud).



Believe whatever you want, guys, but as Pat said, many controlled scientific studies have shown that dowsing is no better than chance.Well, I'm a man of faith, but this particular item requires zero of my faith, because I've seen it work with my own eyes. I felt it work in my own hands. There was a snappy action to the motion of the rod, not just a gentle acceleration like if I tilted it. I was proven wrong by seeing it work. I don't admit that too often.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Again, water is a polar molecule--you can't discount what it does when it flows.

The dipoles are not aligned, though - in the aggregate, all fields will cancel.



No disrespect intended, but by your photo and your profile, you're probably a pretty young guy (early 20's?).

I'm old enough to have a master's degree in electrical engineering ;).

[John Keeton]

Guys, at this point it would appear we have reached an impasse. Let's just all agree to disagree, and let the subject be. Neither is going to convince the other through this medium.

I was as skeptical as Dan at one point - and, about the same age. Time and experiences have a way of changing things for all of us. And, the older I get, the more I realize the less I know!

It has been a great exchange of ideas, however!!:D

[David G Baker]

Thank you John K.