I'm begening to hate tool collectors!

[Brian Greb]

I'm on the hunt for a #2 smoothing plane, not to complete some shelf candy tool collection, but to use. I love to work wood and I like to work with out hearing protection in my free time. All that said I keep bidding on Stanley no. 2's that come up on the auction sites, well on the bay the price quickley shoots past what I see as resonable for a tool I will have to clean and fettle. But I have been watching who wins these planes and it apperes to be the same guy. I just want to know what any one person needs 6 of the same plane. I just need to vent thanks for listining.

A note to tool collectors;
Tools are for craftsmen to craft wood in to works of art and things of beauty. These tools are not intended to be horded and displayed as some kind of trophy. So I beg you to collect something else less usefull and leave the tools for the pepole that use them.

-Brian-

[Christian Castillo]

I'm sure some tool collectors can express the same sentiment toward those who chose to remove rust and polish, replace parts or restore a tool so they can use it again, it is probably appalling to them the lack of "respect" for history. Don't get too worked up about it, the items will go to those who want them the most, that's capitalism for you. If things were merely a value of their function, we would have a bland and uninspired society.

For what its worth, I'm not a tool collector, but there are always two sides to an issue.

[bridger berdel]

I'm sure some tool collectors can express the same sentiment toward those who chose to remove rust and polish, replace parts or restore a tool so they can use it again, it is probably appalling to them the lack of "respect" for history. Don't get too worked up about it, the items will go to those who want them the most, that's capitalism for you. If things were merely a value of their function, we would have a bland and uninspired society.

For what its worth, I'm not a tool collector, but there are always two sides to an issue.


I say line the collectors up against the wall and clean out the lot of 'em at once.

[Christian Castillo]

laughing out loud, I must say, that is the funniest response that could have followed up my intent at a mutual understanding, I'm still cracking up.

[Don Dorn]

I'm on the hunt for a #2 smoothing plane, not to complete some shelf candy tool collection, but to use. I love to work wood and I like to work with out hearing protection in my free time. All that said I keep bidding on Stanley no. 2's that come up on the auction sites, well on the bay the price quickley shoots past what I see as resonable for a tool I will have to clean and fettle. But I have been watching who wins these planes and it apperes to be the same guy. I just want to know what any one person needs 6 of the same plane. I just need to vent thanks for listining.

-Brian-

Just to establish, I'm not a collector either (although I probably have more planes than I really need). I'm curious though - what do you find in the use of a #2 that a 3 or 4 couldn't get done? I'm not saying you don't - I'm more curious than anything.

[David Weaver]

I guess the fact that the price consistently goes high indicates that what they're going for *is* reasonable. One thing you can't change is what other people will pay for things. There are tools to avoid in this hobby as a user if you want to be on a budget.

For what they bring, if I really had a use for a 2, I would just buy a lie nielsen. It's a better plane with a significantly better iron.

Another option is to make a laminated plane (krenov style) with a 1 1/2 inch iron. If you get a mild steel rod at home depot, you should be able to make one for the cost of an old double iron.

People have different opinions based on what they like and how they work, but I've never found any use for a 2. I guess if you worked on really small things, but even then, a 4 is better. Save the tiny narrow smoothers to be high angle spot smoothers for problem woods. If there's any camber on those small iron planes, they take a very narrow cut.

[James Taglienti]

The #2 really is not a rare plane. It's quite common, but collectors insist on stockpiling them. I know of about 500 maybe more that are in various collections. Many many advanced Stanley collectors buy them up. One of each type, sometimes, maybe one from each hardware firm. Maybe every one they see. My neighbor has about 40. He's got every tool you can imagine. We have gotten to know each other and now he treats most of his collection like a public library and I can use what I need!

These individuals who are advanced collectors are usually older men ages 60-100. If you can wait about 20 years, i would wager that you will get a #2 for about 40 bucks. A nice one too.

Maybe you should befriend a collector. I am a collector. Sorta. But I'm not a stockpiler.

I have a #2. I think it's a great plane. it is shorter than a 3. It is narrower. It is a standard angle block plane with a tote and knob, bevel down of course. It basically performs extended block plane tasks where my hand would look and feel like a claw otherwise. I think it's more sensitive than the larger planes. It is in no way irreplacable. The cutter is ground square. It is nice for cleaning up electric jointer marks. easier to push than a blocfk plane, and you can palm the knob and hold the board.

[David Keller NC]

A note to tool collectors;
Tools are for craftsmen to craft wood in to works of art and things of beauty. These tools are not intended to be horded and displayed as some kind of trophy. So I beg you to collect something else less usefull and leave the tools for the pepole that use them.

-Brian-

Except that without tool collectors, we would know little to nothing about the history of woodworking tools, who made them, what the proper use for a lot of the more esoteric ones were (and that are still useful today) and probably most importantly, how to reproduce the useful but rare types. the best example I can think of is the revolution in high-quality, small-maker backsaws we have today. The two folks that started this used (gasp!) saws from tool collections to work out the details of what a good saw is and isn't.

And - the advice about getting a new #2 is salient. No decent Stanley #2 is going to go for much less than a brand new bronze Lie-Nielsen #2, and it's a better plane from a user's standpoint.

[Brian Greb]

Just to establish, I'm not a collector either (although I probably have more planes than I really need). I'm curious though - what do you find in the use of a #2 that a 3 or 4 couldn't get done? I'm not saying you don't - I'm more curious than anything.

The use of a 2 for me is I an use it on tough(complex) grain spots on a board, and it is highly useful in making small boxes.
I know I can use a no. 3 or 4 but the 2 is capable of pin pointing trouble spots.

[Brian Greb]

I guess the fact that the price consistently goes high indicates that what they're going for *is* reasonable. One thing you can't change is what other people will pay for things. There are tools to avoid in this hobby as a user if you want to be on a budget.

For what they bring, if I really had a use for a 2, I would just buy a lie nielsen. It's a better plane with a significantly better iron.

Another option is to make a laminated plane (krenov style) with a 1 1/2 inch iron. If you get a mild steel rod at home depot, you should be able to make one for the cost of an old double iron.

People have different opinions based on what they like and how they work, but I've never found any use for a 2. I guess if you worked on really small things, but even then, a 4 is better. Save the tiny narrow smoothers to be high angle spot smoothers for problem woods. If there's any camber on those small iron planes, they take a very narrow cut.

First off... woodworking is not a hobby for me, I work with wood all day(mostly with power tools granted) and I relax working wood with hand tools. yet everything I make is ether commissioned or I sell. So this is my job.

As for the Krenov style plane i have one that i made... it may technically be a smother but it has the feel of a block plane... hence my need for the no2.

On the lie Nelson front... I like the tools but I don't like the price for what he charges I could get a Stanley off the bay and get a hock blade for it. I'm looking for a deal not a 300+ plane. Call me cheap if you want but I work hard for my money and I don't part with it easily.

[Jim Koepke]

The iron body Lie-Nielsen is $245, if you want the tool, you are going to have to pay the price of admission.

From what I can see the prices on ebay have come down a little in the past few years. A bad economy will do that.

I can not think of too many of us who would not love to find #2s all day long for $5 or $10.

jim

[David Weaver]

I'm also cheap. I like infill planes. I don't want to pay for them. If I want one, I have to make it.

But the following comment and a desire for things that have a very well established collector's value are a recipe for you to be frustrated without anything changing - it's sure not going to change what collector's do:

>>Call me cheap if you want but I work hard for my money and I don't part with it easily.<<

Ebay is probably about the worst place to look for something that has well-established collector value, too. There will likely be more eyes on a plane there than anywhere else in the world.

It goes both ways - there are a lot of extremely user friendly tools that are cheap because they have no collector value, and quite a lot of them are more useful than a #2 in general.

It seems to me that you have three choices:
* find a #2 somewhere off ebay - that involves significant effort
* pay the going rate for a good user on ebay with something that diminishes collector value
* buy a lie-nielsen #2.

If the last two are about the same price, then there's not a lot of sense getting frustrated in things you can't change, especially if it doesn't do anything to motivate the people who are frustrating you.

And FTR, I'm not a collector, nor do I have a #2 (or even come remotely close to wanting one).

[Rick Rutten]

I agree with David's comments. If you really want one get an LN. It is FAR less than you will pay for a 602 and a lot better plane that you won't have to fiddle with. That way you and collectors both get what you want even if you both have to pay more than what you would like. Once an item gets to be of interest to a certain group it's value will likely climb beyond the acceptable range of other groups. Thats just the way supply and demand works. To change that would be redistribution. No further comments on how that is working.

Rick

[Rick Rutten]

I say line the collectors up against the wall and clean out the lot of 'em at once.

Christian I can't even build a wall so no worries there. ;)

Rick

[David Weaver]

I forgot - there's definitely one good thing about collectors....

.. being at their auction when they become deceased, lose their job and have to sell, or move into a retirement home.

Unless one of the ebay double-jack-up price sellers is there, the collector's flood the market with tools and you're bound to get a deal, even if you have to get some of their second tier collector's goods because resellers get the first tier goods. If the collector's hadn't pored over the tools in the first place, they probably would've ended up in a bucket somewhere as a rust farm.

[Darnell Hagen]

I have no real problem with collectors, they are custodians of the rare and studiers of history.

What bothers me is sellers that figure that every tool is made of solid gold and aren't reasonable in their pricing. I'm getting tired of biting my tounge every time I hear some busted-frog loose-tote plane being described as "collector".

[David Cockey]

My understanding is the prices of collectable Stanley planes and other hand tools have been dropping for a while as collectors are literally dieing off. We went to a large auction in Indianapolis last fall on the day the "lesser" tools were being sold and I got a number of good tools for using at what I considered reasonable prices.

If you want to buy something on eBay at the lowest possible price there are a couple of simple rules to follow:
1) Don't tell anyone else about an item you see listed.
2) Decide how much you are willing to pay for the item in advance.
3) Do not bid before one minute prior to the end of the auction. There is absolutely no advantage to a buyer to bidding early. Bidding early lets other folks know you are interested and is likely to prompt someone else to bid higher.
4) Use a bidding (sniping) service if you don't want to sit in front of your computer waiting for the magic minute to arrive. I use Phantom Bidder which costs 50 cents or so for each auction won, nothing if I don't win. My time is worth more than 50 cents to me. And the service is better at getting a bid in just before the auction closes than I am.

[James Taglienti]

I just watched a Stanley #2 go off on ebay for $110. Is that still too much?

[Brian Greb]

I just watched a Stanley #2 go off on ebay for $110. Is that still too much?

No that's the price range I'm shooting for... but I was outbid by literally the last half second by 50 cents.

[Rod Sheridan]

I like tool collectors, they travel all over the place buying tools and bringing them to a central location.

That saves me all kinds of time and expense, and then I buy their undesirable planes at low cost and enjoy using them.

I recently purchased an 1897 era Stanley #7 for $50, in excellent working condition, with intact knob and tote. It's sin was to have a more modern blade in it.

It sharpened up just fine, and now it's back in use.

Regards, Rod.

[Rick Markham]

No that's the price range I'm shooting for... but I was outbid by literally the last half second by 50 cents.

Unfortunately that is kinda the way it works. I have been pretty successful watching items until the last second, and then bidding. But I have to insert a bid of what "I am willing to pay for it" sometimes I end up paying less than my highest bid, but occasionally I get outbid. Regardless of what I pay if I get it, it is what I wanted, it is within my budget, sometimes less than I expected. If my highest bid in the last few seconds isn't enough then oh well... I will bid on the next one that comes up that is within reason. Eventually I will get one that I want. I think the key is don't click the "one click bid button" up the anty a bit, so in the last moments someone can't just click that and outbid you by $.50!

I know it is frustrating, but those collectors will let loose of their collection one day... remember we can't take this stuff with us ;) People are "buying the farm" all the time, tomorrow ebay might be flooded with someone's collection. Kinda morbid but such is life!

[Rick Rutten]

Brian I don't know if it will help, but after having so many of the same things happen to me I set my price before bidding, increase it by $5-$10 then enter that at the last one minute. If it goes over my new amount then I don't feel so bad loosing by a $1. I loose by $5-$10 which is a good bit more than I was going to pay. Or you could use one of the sniping programs David mentions. It is what they were designed for. Kind of like using the right tool for the job.

Rick

[James Taglienti]

I rarely place a bid before the last 5 seconds. If i do, it's because the item is mislabeled or has a crummy photo. Placing a bid ensures that the item title and main photo are locked and cannot be changed, nor can the description, though it can be amended. The item also cannot be pulled or added a "buy it now" without some red tape, thus preventing the more devious folks of snatching it in a side deal. Is that mean of me?
The downside is that the early bid is usually noticed. IE "why is there a bid on the item with the blurry photo, it's just a 'Rusty HandHeld Plainer Tool Thing' ? "

[glenn bradley]

A note to tool collectors;
Tools are for craftsmen to craft wood in to works of art and things of beauty. These tools are not intended to be horded and displayed as some kind of trophy.

And coins are for spending and stamps are for letters and . . . Honey? What the heck do we need all these thimbles for? You don't even sew. :D:D:D

Seriously though, I feel your pain.

[David Weaver]

You should see my dad's collection of oil cans. I'm assuming that's not as hot as it used to be, because I haven't heard about them in a while. He's got rooms in the house where the moulding above the windows all the way around are lined with cans touching each other, and then he's got more on the wall, around the baseboard and boxes full of them from auctions.

He tells me how much they're worth....

... I tell him when he kicks off (which hopefully won't be for quite a long time), i'm hiring a waste management dumpster...

(we have that kind of relationship where we push each others' buttons on purpose).

If you ever want to get a collector jacked up, tell them you're going to give their collection to the goodwill or throw it in the garbage.

[george wilson]

David is correct. Without collectors,we'd never see most of the old tools that have been dug up. It is aggravating what the cost of some of these tools has become,but you probably would never even get the opportunity to buy them at ANY cost without collectors digging them out.

On the other hand,I made most of my nice things for collectors!!

[Frank Drew]

Many collectors of musical instruments believe that even precious ($) examples were made to be played, so lend them out to talented musicians.

I haven't seen this practice among tool collectors, but perhaps it occurs. To the extent that it doesn't, though, I guess that my instinct would be to regret, at least a bit, that an item intended by its maker for a certain purpose is, instead, taken out of circulation and put on a shelf.

Whatever...

[george wilson]

In the case of acoustic instruments,especially violins,playing them keeps them sounding good. The Library of Congress has their collection of Strads played regularly by a select group of musicians.

Unfortunately,using tools,sharpening then,etc. does use them up gradually,and also hurts their surfaces. That's just the way it is.

[Frank Drew]

Playing them, travelling with them, in and out of players' hands. also cause wear and tear on instruments, but that's life.

And I think it's a stretch to think the historical record really needs hundreds and hundreds of private "collectors" of, say, Stanley planes.

[James Taglienti]

I know a lot of collectors who use their nice pieces. A friend just told me about how he used his gunmetal Miller's patent on his daughter's jewelery box. My neighbor, as I said, lends me strange and rare planes to use.

I also know a lot of guys who just stockpile. Never even pushed a plane. Just like to say they have it. Keeping prices up.

I also know a lot of users who just stockpile. Buy every new plane that comes out and use it twice. Just like to say they have it. In this instance, keeping prices down.

I am one of the guys who goes to sales and auctions and brings the tools to market. Sometimes they go to a user. Sometimes they go to a collector. I don't care either way. There are literally millions of Stanley bench planes. They are sold for a dollar each every hour of every day. They are not hard to find.

These pictures are from an auction last sunday in rural IL. I paid $118 for everything. My wife got a few things on that tab that arent in the photos.

Stanley 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, low angle block planes (6 of them) dewalt 618 router with plunge base, senco sks stapler, carving tools, eggbeater drills, etc etc, hundreds of pounds of iron. Two 5 1/4's , one with a cute little jointer fence. -

No #2's.

[Roy Lindberry]

I'm on the hunt for a #2 smoothing plane, not to complete some shelf candy friggen tool collection, but to use. I love to work wood and I like to work with out hearing protection in my free time. All that said I keep bidding on Stanley no. 2's that come up on the auction sites, well on the bay the price quickley shoots past what I see as resonable for a tool I will have to clean and fettle. But I have been watching who wins these planes and it apperes to be the same guy. I just want to know what any one person needs 6 of the same plane. I just need to vent thanks for listining.

A note to tool collectors;
Tools are for craftsmen to craft wood in to works of art and things of beauty. These tools are not intended to be horded and displayed as some kind of trophy. So I beg you to collect something else less usefull and leave the tools for the pepole that use them.

-Brian-

I feel you, Brian. While others have made some valid points in defense of collectors, it is very frustrating trying to find a tool to use, knowing that there are plenty that just aren't available because they are sitting on a shelf somewhere.

Where it really gets me, though, are those "collectors" who don't even really value their collections. I'm trying to build a collection of hand planes to actually use, and I know a guy who has a decent set of Stanleys in his basement. He talks about how he "collects" them and so won't part with them, but they are buried on a back shelf under a half inch of dust.

My uncle got my grandpa's set of planes (users) when he died, and they are just out in his barn somewhere. He doesn't even know where. I'm still hoping to get hold of those, but we'll see...it doesn't appear that he wants anybody else to have them and actually enjoy them. That stuff is frustrating.

[george wilson]

Fact is,vintage violins need to be played. The Library of Congress 's experts (and most players) recognize this. Another fact is that hardly a shred of original Cremona varnish has existed on original master violins in the 20th.C.. The old varnish only remains in the little dip around the edges of the top and back. So,it's not being worn,long ago refinished over. New necks have long ago been spliced onto the old master violins,because the necks required,and the string tension,and even the pitch has been increased since the 18th.C. "A" used to be 420 cycles. It is now 440.

The scroll pegheads have been saved,and carefully grafted onto longer necks.

[Brian Greb]

I concede to the fact that without collectors these planes would rust away in to oblivion. But it is a frustrating fact that:

a) Many [tool] collectors have a compulsion to stock pile

b) many shelf, drawer, box, or closet there tool collections just to say they have them.

c) collectors [in the tool realm] create a false demand for an item buy declaring it rare... like the #2 #7 and #8. In some cases what is deemed rare is like the #1.

d) serious tool collectors poo-poo the idea of using/ or altering an antique tool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note I have done some thinking and well I now see that i can't fault collectors for there passion. They have a disease they are addicted to old tools, and the older and more rare the better the high they get. thus satisfying there addiction for a short while. "They just need that fix man."

I do realize that we need collectors they make the consumer market go round. I my self make a living off of collectors... yes that's right people collect the things I make. I an fairly certain that no one that buys my bows uses them so they must be collector, same for my turned art. Also I guess people that buy my furniture pieces are collectors of sorts.

As I eluded to earlier I'm just getting frustrated and need to vent... I know one day I will have my very own #2... until then I'll keep hunting. Or perhaps I'll just make an infill.:rolleyes:

Thank you all for letting me vent and I did not realize how hot of a topic this was going to be.

I guess that I will have to have a love hate relationship with the collectors.

[george wilson]

Without collectors making tools valuable,do you think you'd even see tools for sale at a flea market? Who wants to haul around heavy metal things that are worth a dollar or two.

[Dan Karachio]

Maybe we should call that TV show about Hoarders and have them do an "intervention" with all these collectors?

[Ben St. John]

Not to be too blunt, and perhaps I haven't worked with these tools enough to comment with any authority, but does it have to be a Stanley no.2? I mean, aren't there other tools that can achieve the same objective? Maybe a bit more tuning would be required or some such thing, but if the goal is to avoid spending an unnecessary amount of money, then perhaps a bit more labor is not that big a deal? I don't mean to be cheeky; I'm seriously wondering if there is something so special about the Stanley no.2 that justifies this.

[Brian Greb]

Not to be too blunt, and perhaps I haven't worked with these tools enough to comment with any authority, but does it have to be a Stanley no.2? I mean, aren't there other tools that can achieve the same objective? Maybe a bit more tuning would be required or some such thing, but if the goal is to avoid spending an unnecessary amount of money, then perhaps a bit more labor is not that big a deal? I don't mean to be cheeky; I'm seriously wondering if there is something so special about the Stanley no.2 that justifies this.

Really the only special thing about the Stanley #2 is that Stanley made damn good tools with good iron in there blades. As for another plane doing the same job... There are other planes that are 7.5"~8" long but they all command as much if not more money than the Stanley.

There was the sugestion to get the LN no.2 but it is patterned off of the bedrock no. 302 and I prefer the bailey style planes... also I personaly have issues with LN. They no longer sell though woodcraft due to some little issue with they don't want there planes discounted unless there selling them at a show. The way I see it woodcraft pays LN for the product so there should be no issue. Isn't the idea of running a buisness to make money? I mean really doesn't it help to have a national outlet for your product insted of limited outlets and a mail order cataloge. N-E-Way... On top of that issue I have never used a LN product so I do not know how there planes stack up. See I do know how good the old planes are and that is part of why I want an old plane... also as I said earlier I am cheap.

[george wilson]

Believe me,I've had PLENTY of frustration with dealers trying to push tools beyond their real value EVEN TO WHAT COLLECTOR VALUE IS.

Micrometer wrenches come with micrometers. They are nothing more than the CHEAPEST,stamped out sheet metal wrenches out there. Over 30 years ago,I came upon a dealer who had about a dozen UNRELATED mike wrenches. He didn't want to break UP THE COLLECTION!!! Some were chrome plated,some case hardened,some cadmium plated. That really irritated me. They wereNOT a collectable item,but that tightwad was trying to make them so.

The flea markets I like best are the Early American Industries flea markets that they set up wherever they have a major gathering. Their prices are in line with what they should really be,because they all know that everyone knows what they are doing.

It's the dealers that really rankle me.

[Frank Drew]

George wrote, "Without collectors making tools valuable,do you think you'd even see tools for sale at a flea market?"

Certain tools, sure; there would be a market for Spiers or Norris infill planes, for example, quite independent of collectors; users would (and do) buy these planes in a heartbeat, even at the premium they'd bring (and brought, back when they were made.)

I'm not at all condemning collecting -- most of us have bought something in amounts that exceed any reasonable need, but neither am I inclined to think that collectors deserve, particularly, to be praised for performing a public service. That's overstating the case, IMO.

I'll admit, for the record, that I do think that, in the grand scheme of things, the highest purpose of a good tool is in its use.

[john brenton]

I've been the OP before. He's just venting, I sincerely doubt he needed to be enlightened. I know the guys frustration well. You are buying the tool to use because it either can't be found new, or buying it new would land you in the dog house. You see what you want but there are these hoarders and their little stockpiles of straight razors, Stanley planes and Safari Cards (yeah, I want these little "safari cards" for my kids because I loved them as a kid but they're crazy expensive. I doubt the same Jabba the Hut looking guy that has all the straight razors and Stanley planes has the safari cards..but you know.)

[David Weaver]

It's the dealers that really rankle me.

You and me, too. Ebay has a dandy flipper, and a bunch of copycats popping up now. Everything is rare or mint, especially if it's not named stanley. Double what anyone would ask - $65 for a plain beat up lever cap off an old junked infill plane, that kind of thing.

If I had one lament, it would be the price of carving tools. A couple of years ago, they started going through the roof, and vintage carving tools followed. I have to assume that's a user-driven price increase. It doesn't matter what it is, though - if you have a project and you need two new gouges on it, it can add an easy hundred bucks to the project. That's a real down - especially given that there really isn't much to most gouges, and it's not like they're socketed. TC and Pfeil must've run into a bunch of pension payments or higher government benefit taxes or something.

[David Weaver]

George wrote, "Without collectors making tools valuable,do you think you'd even see tools for sale at a flea market?"

Certain tools, sure; there would be a market for Spiers or Norris infill planes, for example, quite independent of collectors; users would (and do) buy these planes in a heartbeat, even at the premium they'd bring (and brought, back when they were made.)


Infills probably would've stuck around, but george is right, I think, about the basic tools like chisels and common bench planes. They'd make their way to the garbage can as soon as they rusted.

[george wilson]

When I started going to the huge flea markets in Pennsylvania in 1970,you could buy decent chisels and carving tools for about $2.50 each. Now they are $30.00 to $50.00 each!! I think I saw a 2 Cherries list price of $80.00 somewhere not long ago. A large Pfiel at Woodcraft was about $95.00 last week.

I am glad that I have gotten my tools already!! I haven't been to those flea markets for at least 10 or 15 years,buy am going this year if for no other reason to get out and walk around. When I am treasure hunting,I will walk a lot farther than usual.

I'll no doubt be aghast at the prices!!!

Fortunately,my focus has changed from woodworking tools (which I have enough of) to machinist tools,and they have been slower to get jacked up than wood working tools,except certain classes,like old Starrett Tools.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Just to offer another possibility, have you looked at the tote for the Veritas low angle block plane? (Item 05P22.15, $26.50.) This puts a standard tote behind the block plane, allowing you to use two hands comfortably.

If that's not the right size, note that you can make a Krenov plane not only any size you want, but any shape. Just because JK liked planes without a tote and of a particular shape does not mean that you need to shape them that way.

[David Weaver]

There was the sugestion to get the LN no.2 but it is patterned off of the bedrock no. 302 and I prefer the bailey style planes... also I personaly have issues with LN. They no longer sell though woodcraft due to some little issue with they don't want there planes discounted unless there selling them at a show. The way I see it woodcraft pays LN for the product so there should be no issue.

That's actually a bit off the mark. I think the real reason is that WC wanted more regular delivery of stock, and probably assurance they could get stock, and LN didn't want to increase production to the levels that it would take to guarantee that, and at the same time wanted to do more business from their web page.

They also were not satisfied with the lack of a guarantee that someone at WC would be well versed with the planes and able to demonstrate them capably to a customer. The discount sale thing may not have helped, but it's my relatively informed understanding that the relationship was going south long before that more because of the quantity demands and how the planes were demonstrated / sold.

Sometimes when two businesses grow, their philosophies no longer mix after the growth.

[David Weaver]

This, btw, seems like an invitation to build an infill plane. Far and away the easiest one to build is a straight sided 1 1/2" iron plane - or two at different effective angles.

They will blow a stanley #2 out of the water for performance, and you could make one for less than the cost of a #2. You don't even need to do a neat job of it. My first plane looked like a steak knife and had the lever cap crosspin drilled crooked, and i was still able to get everything fitted nicely and have a good performer.

[Brian Greb]

.... I think the real reason is that WC wanted more regular delivery of stock, and probably assurance they could get stock, and LN didn't want to increase production to the levels that it would take to guarantee that, and at the same time wanted to do more business from their web page.

They also were not satisfied with the lack of a guarantee that someone at WC would be well versed with the planes and able to demonstrate them capably to a customer. The discount sale thing may not have helped, but it's my relatively informed understanding that the relationship was going south long before that more because of the quantity demands and how the planes were demonstrated / sold.
...

So there afraid of success?
People are to stupid to use there tools?
How complicated is it to use a copy of a Stanley tool?

I understand meeting quantity demands is an issue but increase in sales means that they could expand production.

Do you need a PhD to use a LN plane... no there simple tools to use(if well made)... if you have used a plane before you already understand how to use a LN. If you have never used a plane before you'll probably buy a less expensive non premium plane. So why do the sales people need to be well versed in demonstration of the tool. If I buy there tool on the web I get no stinking demo. So this is an invalid argument.

The only valid point I have heard is that at a trade show there was a battle between LN and WC over discounts on the product. Woodcraft was selling the LN tools at there booth for full price and LN was selling with a discount... so WC matched the discount. Thus built tension between the two companies. I don't know if this was the tipping point after other minor problems between the companies but it was the point at which greed ended the sale of LN tools at WC.

So it was a temper-tantrum, lack of ability to meet demand, and narrow sighted greed.

Thus I have good reason not to support LN tool works.

[Brian Greb]

This, btw, seems like an invitation to build an infill plane. Far and away the easiest one to build is a straight sided 1 1/2" iron plane - or two at different effective angles.

They will blow a Stanley #2 out of the water for performance, and you could make one for less than the cost of a #2. You don't even need to do a neat job of it. My first plane looked like a steak knife and had the lever cap crosspin drilled crooked, and i was still able to get everything fitted nicely and have a good performer.

I shall build an infill... again! The only advantage I saw to buying the no. 2 is that it is already made so I could just use it and not spend the time to build a plane. But alas I will have to spend the time making a plane instead of working on a project. If I added up all the time I spent making tools ...maybe I shouldn't go there.

[Jim Koepke]

Brian,

It looks like you are trying to buy a #2 at half price. You will be frustrated for a long time trying to do that.

If the tool will be useful and help you to make more items to sell, then it is worth putting a little more punch in your bid.

The only other way you will find one that cheap is to spend a lot of time out rust hunting.

jim

[Brian Greb]

I just wanted to add to my dislike list... tool dealers and brokers. Just because some nut case payed and obscene amount for one tool in the past doest mean there all worth that. Also mint means never been used like it left the factory, New in box(NIB) means just that, Rare= not many of them... if your selling one and there are 7 others for sale(on the same site!) at the time means that it probably isn't all that rare. As for premium prices for broken tools I mean really... if I put a 50 year old cow pie in a box and marked it vintage would you pay any more for that one than a newer cow pie.

I just spoke with a tool broker and he told me thought that the plane he was selling was worth the price... so I asked him how long he has been trying to sell it and he said a year. Obviously it is not worth the price. He still turned down my reasonable offer... Guess he likes his find better than money... hell he even told me he bought it for $55 at a garage sale... he could have made $75 in profit if he had taken my offer. oh well.

and whats up with stating your auction at .99 with a $150 reserve... just start it at the price you are looking to get.

[James Taglienti]

I think the fact that woodcraft started selling Stanley copies too kind of got on LN's nerves.

As far as the employees not being able to show you how to use one, maybe. Maybe they pitched the LN's and when someone gasped at the price tag they'd walk them over to the Woodriver planes. Who knows.

This is all conjecture.

Isn't that why Leonard Bailey walked away from Stanley the first time? They were pushing their own tools over his to avoid paying royalties?
Though LN draws a veeeery pale comparison to the genius of Leonard Bailey. Like, to the point of translucency. I am just trying to shed light on how business works.

[Brian Greb]

Brian,

It looks like you are trying to buy a #2 at half price. You will be frustrated for a long time trying to do that.

If the tool will be useful and help you to make more items to sell, then it is worth putting a little more punch in your bid.

The only other way you will find one that cheap is to spend a lot of time out rust hunting.

jim

I'm not really looking at half price... I just don't want to spend a whole bunch a tool I have to fix and get a new blade for. If its in real good shape I'll shell out the 180~200 for it... but if it is rusty & dusty, covered in pitted metal, has a broken tote, missing a knob, or has a short blade I don't want to pay that much. Most of the "nice" ones I have seen have one or more of those problems. ...Plus I know I can make a #2 infill for a hair under 120+ time so that's my threshold.


I'd love to go rust hunting but in my corner of the world there just arn't any old hand tools... my part of TX is just too new.

[Dave Anderson NH]

The whole Lie-Nielsen vs Woodcraft Supply controversy is all based on conjecture and as such we will never know. I've know Tom Lie-Nielsen for many years and spent a good bit of time visiting with him and his daughter just a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure he would have told me the full and complete story if I had asked. I purposefully did not ask because it is his private business and not either mine or the general public's. Suffice to say I respect both him AND Woodcraft who I have been dealing with since they were a single store operation in Woburn Mass and only a 15 minute drive from my house when I still lived in MA some 30 odd years ago. Sometimes due to differing business philosophies and diverging goals even long term relationships go out the window and no one in particular is at fault.

[David Weaver]

Sometimes due to differing business philosophies and diverging goals even long term relationships go out the window and no one in particular is at fault.

I maybe heard a little more about the situation than some other people, before it occurred. I do not work for either, but in talking to some folks at one of those two beforehand, it came up. That's where my summary above came from above, and I haven't heard anything from either since then. I can't assert that I'm definitely correct, because I don't know very much, but I haven't heard anything from either party since then that disagrees with what I put above - certainly haven't heard any name-calling or nefarious stuff.

I doubt TLN is afraid of success. I think he's at a point where he knows how he wants his business to be run, he doesn't mind keeping the margin between wholesale and retail (who wouldn't), and he doesn't want to turn into a JIT manufacturer with orders streaming in for next day delivery to retailers all the time. AT the same time, WC had demands for quantity, and they get a black eye when the customers say "hey, why are there hardly any LN planes all the time" or "why are #x, #y, and #z always out of stock?".

It's just the way the world goes. Every situation ends sooner or later - one, or we'd still be buying planes made in small shops with apprentices and masters, and our saws would still be hand scraped / tapered, and we'd have to spend a week's pay for either.

As far as the WR planes, my understanding is that people were bugging WC for a "mid-range" plane, they realized they couldn't source anything in the US for that price, so they went to china. They had no interest in losing LN, and at the time, LN was backed up on orders some, anyway, so it's not like LN had scads of stock sitting on shelves because the woodriver planes came out.

It's just a way different world now with the internet than it was 25 years ago when you sold through mail order, magazine ads or brick and mortar. Think about how some reputable opinion can make or break a product - recall how the bottom fell out of the #6s for a while after blood and gore said they were one of the more useless planes? What about the yankee brace - how much was that 10 years ago? I can't see anything better about my yankee than my sampson chucked brace, but it goes for 4 times as much. How about the large scraper plane? They used to be a dime a dozen. At the same time, look at power tools - I have a 1993 FWW - in it, sanders and table saws are almost the same price as they are now. A lot of the places in the ads either don't exist now or have become a shell of their former selves.

What's the old saying - the only constant is change?

(btw, Dave, i only quoted your post to agree with it, the rest of my post isn't intended to be directed at your post).

[Dave Anderson NH]

Not to worry David. Just as a point of information though, Lie-Nielsen is indeed primarily a just in time manufacturer. They went to the lean manufacturing approach several years ago. They do maintain a stock, but I imagine responding to an order for 75 to 150 or more of a particular item or several items to fill a single large order that comes on an irregular and unpredictable basis puts a stress on the system. To my way of thinking the primary defect of lean and JIT is that somewhere along the supply chain someone has to stock either the raw materials or the finished goods or response time suffers. Usually it is the small guy at the bottom of the food chaiin that gets stuck since the big guys have most of the leverage.

[george wilson]

Another of my complaints with tool dealers is the large number of "Salesman's Samples
' you see on Ebay.

One jerk was advertising a common Swiss style watchmaker's hammer as such. you will see them in every catalog that deals in small tools. I emailed him,and told him it was a Swiss watchmaker's hammer. He wrote back that he'd never heard of a Swiss watchmaker!!! I asked him if he'd ever heard of Rolex,and a few other well known brands. He did not reply. A shyster for sure.

Try going to Ebay,and searching the collectible's section for "salesman's sample."

P.S.: I just went to collectible tools,entering 'salesman's sample. 1007 items popped up. The usual collection of toys,anything small,like toy wood stoves,etc.. It's really aggravating.

[James Taglienti]

Agreed on the salesman's samples. Anything that's small is automatically a salesman's sample. I had an 8" winchester pipe wrench for sale and someone wrote me an email to tell me it was a salesman's sample. It's in the catalog.

[Roy Lindberry]

Just a clarification. I reread my post an realized that I must've been venting. I have no idea if my uncle knows where the planes are or what his attitude is. That was just presumption. I haven't personally talked to him about them, but maybe I will.

[george wilson]

Of course,a salesman's sample makes the object worth big $$$. It is amazing how many TOYS become salesman's samples on Ebay. Or,in flea markets,which I'm getting ready to go to.

It's amazing what b.s. you can see. Like water buffalo horn tips worth $6.00 suddenly becoming rhino horns worth thousands. I actually saw a Chinese guy many years ago,who did have a real rhino horn for sale for $800.00. THAT would have been a great investment!!! They are round,and made of very tightly matted hairs.

[David Weaver]

George - ever see how many vintage guitars there are now? When I started playing guitar 20 years ago, very few people wanted vintage guitars to begin with because they were made of pure Unobtanium. You rarely saw a real vintage 50s strat or 59 les paul.

They're everywhere now, especially the fenders, because they're so easy to do.

I never knew about the vintage counterfeiting bit until I listed a guitar of mine on ebay - a gretsch 6120-1960 - on a true auction. Some guy won it for $1200, I was kind of miffed because that was low, and he wrote me an email and went nuts insisting that I was selling a fake one. I had to take a picture of the tag inside the guitar through the f-hole before he'd pay (and after he won, of course). I got it form a gretsch dealer here in town :rolleyes:

I guess once he bought the guitar, he saw a story that there were a few korean fake gretsch guitars on ebay, and then he took it out on me.

Once he got the guitar, he wrote me an email to tell me how excited he was to get a basically unused gretsch for $1,200. I'll bet :rolleyes: I wonder how much the scumbag scammers cost me on that one.

Be interesting to see what you come back with in your mental bank about what tools cost. Seems there are countless buck and butcher gouges on ebay for nosebleed prices, but when you look at the "completed auctions" prices, most of them are about $20. People on ebay use dealer prices to set theirs, i'm convinced, at least the "super rare, ultra mint" dealers, and then people at fleas get out their iphone and look up an item on ebay to price theirs. It's an interesting spiral - one that's not that interesting to me as a buyer.

[george wilson]

I already have everything,so for many years have bought very little for myself. My wife was into vintage photographs,so we spent a lot of time on those.

One thing I always look for is old alphabet and figure stamps. They used to be made with serifs but haven't been for many years. I have a lot of sets now. One in particular must be extremely early. The metal they are made of was crudely rolled. 3 flat sides,and 1 convex side. They were sold with the striking end just hot cut off with a chisel!!! However,the letters are unique among stamps. They have true Roman letters with thick and thin members. They are 1/4" high,bigger than I'd really use a lot. I hope to find some similar that are 3 /32",1/16",or 1/8". They are one tool that hasn't had their prices terribly inflated by collectors. For marking high class work,like infill planes,surveyor's compasses and other such,they make or break the final quality of the item. Most makers seem to be unaware of that,and just use the standard,ugly,Gothic stamps you can buy now.

Some of my favorites are the old WWI and WWII military stamp sets. They had serifs,and beautiful numbers. They aren't cheap,either,as they are collected by militaria collectors.

[James Taglienti]

David-
you could have just told him that the sticker inside the guitar had some sort of chinese symbols on it. Maybe he would have backed off.

Don't expect to buy much from the high end dealers for a great price. It's not how they do business. Many of their tools are collector grade and as a result they pay slightly higher prices for them. This is in turn reflected in their asking prices. If they do have user grade tools, odds are they will be inflated too.

I have seen on quite a few websites basic bench planes going for $75 - $200 depending on size. Don't buy them. Don't buy the Addis spoon gouge for $50. Don't buy the Buck Brothers crank neck chisel for $70. It's as simple as that. Just wait... There are a lot of things I want, as a collector. I'd love a Standard Rule #3. A friend has one with a sticker of $400 on it. I'm not going to buy it.

[Martin Cash]

Just to offer another possibility, have you looked at the tote for the Veritas low angle block plane? (Item 05P22.15, $26.50.) This puts a standard tote behind the block plane, allowing you to use two hands comfortably.

If that's not the right size, note that you can make a Krenov plane not only any size you want, but any shape. Just because JK liked planes without a tote and of a particular shape does not mean that you need to shape them that way.

I have to agree with this suggestion.
This is an outstanding plane that will solve your planing needs, with an even better blade than any Stanley number 2.
And it is in your price range.
Furthermore you can have a couple of blades with different bevel angles to solve those really difficult little grain spots on your boxes.

[Derek Cohen]

Excellent suggestion Martin.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Taglienti]

That veritas setup looks about 6 times as useful as a #2.

I have a #2 size stanley here but the difference is that it's a salesman's sample. It even has his initials on it. You can take it for $875.

BTW it looks like this thread is going the distance.

[Steve Dallas]

I'm on the hunt for a #2 smoothing plane, not to complete some shelf candy friggen tool collection, but to use. I love to work wood and I like to work with out hearing protection in my free time. All that said I keep bidding on Stanley no. 2's that come up on the auction sites, well on the bay the price quickley shoots past what I see as resonable for a tool I will have to clean and fettle. But I have been watching who wins these planes and it apperes to be the same guy. I just want to know what any one person needs 6 of the same plane. I just need to vent thanks for listining.

A note to tool collectors;
Tools are for craftsmen to craft wood in to works of art and things of beauty. These tools are not intended to be horded and displayed as some kind of trophy. So I beg you to collect something else less usefull and leave the tools for the pepole that use them.

-Brian-

Nobody needs six copies of a No. 2. Tool hoarders serve no useful function that I've been able to figure out. You're right to be indignant. It would be nice if these idiots took a fancy to swizzle sticks or matchbooks, wouldn't it?

[Zach England]

I have to agree with this suggestion.
This is an outstanding plane that will solve your planing needs, with an even better blade than any Stanley number 2.
And it is in your price range.
Furthermore you can have a couple of blades with different bevel angles to solve those really difficult little grain spots on your boxes.


I have the knob and tote set and am going to list them in the classifieds this afternoon as soon as I get home and snap a pic--just a heads up if anyone is interested.

A lot of people like this setup, but it isn't for me. Something about it just feels off in my hands.

[James Taglienti]

This is what happens when two passionate camps butt heads. The vintage tool market is unique in the fact that many of the best hand tools were made long ago. These appeal to collectors and users.

"Why don't they all just go away and leave the tools for the people who actually NEED them?"

We are fortunate enough to enjoy a hand tool revival. Remember 30 years ago there were very few quality plane makers. Collectors had 90% of the antique tool market. Now all of a sudden they need to lay off because I want to play around in my garage.

The most useful planes and tools are also the cheapest. They were manufactured more. The rarer ones with even a hint of utility are almost all available from LN.

Furthermore, the antique tool market is at a serious low for all but the rarest. To complain right now is just silly.

GROW UP. Many times the desire for a strange, obscure, or specialty tool is just as much the thrill of acquisition (READ : COLLECTING) as it it necessity.

If you don't, I'm taking my baseball and I'm going home, and then my dad's going to beat up your dad.

[Steve Dallas]

This is what happens when two passionate camps butt heads. The vintage tool market is unique in the fact that many of the best hand tools were made long ago. These appeal to collectors and users.

"Why don't they all just go away and leave the tools for the people who actually NEED them?"

We are fortunate enough to enjoy a hand tool revival. Remember 30 years ago there were very few quality plane makers. Collectors had 90% of the antique tool market. Now all of a sudden they need to lay off because I want to play around in my garage.

The most useful planes and tools are also the cheapest. They were manufactured more. The rarer ones with even a hint of utility are almost all available from LN.

Furthermore, the antique tool market is at a serious low for all but the rarest. To complain right now is just silly.

GROW UP. Many times the desire for a strange, obscure, or specialty tool is just as much the thrill of acquisition (READ : COLLECTING) as it it necessity.

If you don't, I'm taking my baseball and I'm going home, and then my dad's going to beat up your dad.

Your post seems to rather illogically assume that the same complaint didn't exist 30 years ago regarding collectors. It did. Then, just as now, there are craftsman who did not/do not understand the "thrill" of locating a certain tool only to acquire it and set it on a shelf never to do useful work again- at least during that particular collector's lifetime.

That's okay, all of these losers die at some point and then when daddy's/grandpa's shop is cleaned out everybody just shakes their head wishing they had something he'd actually made with all those tools. Then the tools are sold, hopefully a few going to real end users rather than the vultures circling grandpa's garage anxious to start the process all over again in their own "shops."

[Jim Koepke]

A few of my best finds have been from a collector in Oregon.

He is very proud of his collection, but he also buys and sells tools for income.

My #8 came from him at what I feel was a good price. A few other tools were also acquired from him at good prices.

One thing about collectors is they are sometimes pressed to buy an accumulation to get one item they want for their collection. Being there to help them get a little working capital back in their wallet can be advantageous to all concerned.

So maybe at times I have cursed "that d@#%*$ collector" who outbid me on something, there are also times when my smile is lifted by one who wants to off load a few items to buy a new toy.

It is much more than a two way street if you can swim with the flow.

jim

[Caspar Hauser]

Wow and I thought it was rough over in Deals and Discounts.

Btw Brian, what would be a fair price for a No2?

[Brian Greb]

Wow and I thought it was rough over in Deals and Discounts.

Btw Brian, what would be a fair price for a No2?

After some soul searching and great deal of effort in parting with some of my art... My new fair price is $120~$200 depending on how nice it is... Keep in mind I'm not looking at "fine" or "near mint" planes... My old fair price was $100~$140, I suppose I was being unrealistic. perhaps my new fair price is unrealistic but it is my budget.

I still won't pay over $90 for a basket case... especially if its missing the blade or has a broken cap.

[Steve Dallas]

" these losers?"

what is wrong with you?

are you really that angry at them? do you stay up at night thinking about how great it would be if you could get a #444 for 5 bucks? damn collectors.

one of my best friends is a collector. he doesn't collect the common stuff that you want.

once again, grow up. the arrogance, coldness, and self centeredness of your statement is sickening. if you think we deserve all of the tools just because we want to use them, that's ridiculous. go off and pick a worthy battle. go buy a belt sander. it will drown out the sound of your sobbing. did some collector steal your plane when you were a baby? why the deep seated ferocity? because certainly all i've heard across these 4 pages is
"Waaaaaaaah. Waaaaaaaaaaaah."

cry me a river, you can't have rare vintage tools.
I hope the value skyrockets. Cause I've already got my set.

Im done with this thread.

Not angry; just calling a spade a spade.

[Caspar Hauser]

After some soul searching and great deal of effort in parting with some of my art... My new fair price is $120~$200 depending on how nice it is... Keep in mind I'm not looking at "fine" or "near mint" planes... My old fair price was $100~$140, I suppose I was being unrealistic. perhaps my new fair price is unrealistic but it is my budget.

I still won't pay over $90 for a basket case... especially if its missing the blade or has a broken cap.

I understand completely the search for good useable tools at a reasonable price, I work for a living too and a good part of my day is spent using hand tools.

There is an Ironmongers round the corner which amongst other things stocks used tools, He has a couple of No 2's on the shelves. If I finish work in time tomorrow I'll stop by and see what he's asking/will take for them. If it is within your price range I'll send you a pm. Otherwise that block plane handle combo seems intriquing.

[Brian Greb]

" these losers?"

what is wrong with you?

are you really that angry at them? do you stay up at night thinking about how great it would be if you could get a #444 for 5 bucks? damn collectors.

one of my best friends is a collector. he doesn't collect the common stuff that you want.

once again, grow up. the arrogance, coldness, and self centeredness of your statement is sickening. if you think we deserve all of the tools just because we want to use them, that's ridiculous. go off and pick a worthy battle. go buy a belt sander. it will drown out the sound of your sobbing. did some collector steal your plane when you were a baby? why the deep seated ferocity? because certainly all I've heard across these 4 pages is
"Waaaaaaaah. Waaaaaaaaaaaah."

cry me a river, you can't have rare vintage tools.
I hope the value skyrockets. Cause I've already got my set.

I'm done with this thread.

Damn did we strike a nerve?

Who said we deserve all of the tools... just some of them would be nice.

Your right anyone that is frustrated with collectors should just go and use power tools. Who gives a fly'n frick if we want to make good pieces of furniture. I mean heck those old tools are much better off sitting in boxes and shelfs anyhow, at least there in those boxes and shelfs they are protected from morons that can't use them right.

Dream about tool prices? My POV is when I'm working in my shop I go to do something and say I sure would be easier to do (inset task here) with (inset tool here)... but that convenience rarely makes me want to spend a lot of cash.

You got yours so the heck with anyone else right... didn't you go though hell trying to get your "collection" on your terms or did you just pay the price that was asked of you... or may be they where gifted to you.

I agree the looser statement is strong... but it is very hard to understand collecting\hording tools and not using them. I bet your Friend is the salt of the earth nicest guy around lets you use his rare tools all the time, but that doesn't mean all collectors are the same. Some collectors are real "Richard" heads though. Like this one guy I ran into about a week ago at the antique store. I was looking at a plane and was going to purchase it. The price was right and it looked in decent order. Well this guy decided that he would show how frickin smart he was and started talking about how rare it was. Then he pointed out how to date it. I guess that was fine and good I mean it had a price tag on it so I could just pay that price. Just as i was thinking this the guy offered the shop owner three times what the price was on the plane(just shy of 400). If that isn't enough to piss anyone off I had just talked the lady down to 95 due to the planes condition(from a users pov).After he bought the plane he said "this will look great next to the others", I kid you knot. This and many other examples is where my distaste for collectors comes from... eBay is just a new example of frustration. So yes some are nice guys and others are jerks.

As for vultures, idiots and loosers... Thats where my g-pas tools went. My aunt had a garage sale after my grandpa died and let all of his tools go for cheap. Hind sight that was stupid. Vultures? I don't think I have ever scene a vulture use a plane... or a hand tool. I would be kinda cool to see a bird woodwork.:rolleyes: Loseres... I suppose anyone with any kind of collection is a loser to someone. So unless you have no collections watch what you say.

But if you can't understand venting frustrations then just take your toys and go we didn't want you to play n-e-way.

[David Cockey]

Brain, you may also want to take a few moments to make sure you understand how eBay works and the strategy to win an item at the lowest possible price.

eBay doesn't work the same as most in-person auctions. The price is not neccessarially what the highest bidder has bid. Rather it's an increment (which depends on the price) above the second highest bidder. You can read about it on the eBay website - search for "bid increment.

[Martin Cash]

The use of a 2 for me is I an use it on tough(complex) grain spots on a board, and it is highly useful in making small boxes.
I know I can use a no. 3 or 4 but the 2 is capable of pin pointing trouble spots.

Brian,
you don't need a number 2.
With all that has been said, it is easy to lose sight of why you wanted the plane in the first place.
Several woodworkers including myself have endorsed the Veritas combination.
I have one and would not consider a Stanley number 2. The Stanley is so inferior in performance and versatility that it simply isn't worth the money when a better solution is available. Frankly I wouldn't buy the Stanley even if it was the same price as the Veritas.
Furthermore you can afford one as it falls easily within your price range.
Buy it - you won't ever look back.
MC

[Van Huskey]

I have always wanted a Ferrari 250 GTO, possibly the most beautiful car ever made. They are just a machine built to be driven but most that own them don't. You could pick one up in the early 70's for under $10,000 but the "stupid" collectors have run the price up to over $20 million. If I had the money I would buy one and drive it, either way I never thought to be mad at those that wanted it, for what ever reason, and had more money than I did.

I have another hobby that has the exact same issue, users vs collectors. For me it is simple the ones that are willing to spend the most generally get the rewards. But I do know how the OP feels, blowing off steam helps, but sometimes doing it on a public forum just causes more steam...

[Richard Niemiec]

Damn did we strike a nerve?

Who said we deserve all of the tools... just some of them would be nice.
<snip>
As for vultures, idiots and loosers... Thats where my g-pas tools went. My aunt had a garage sale after my grandpa died and let all of his tools go for cheap. Hind sight that was stupid. Vultures? I don't think I have ever scene a vulture use a plane... or a hand tool. I would be kinda cool to see a bird woodwork.:rolleyes: Loseres... I suppose anyone with any kind of collection is a loser to someone. So unless you have no collections watch what you say.

But if you can't understand venting frustrations then just take your toys and go we didn't want you to play n-e-way.

Last time I noticed, we lived in America, under a capitalist system.

There are sellers, and buyers. Goods trade for what someone is willing to sell them for, and what someone is willing to pay. Simple as that. Demonizing (e.g., "vultures, idiots, loosers [sic]") buyers of whatever you particularly want is a useless, and ultimately empty, exercise. The sense of entitlement is astonishing.

I figured out over 15 years ago (and its not such a hard conclusion to reach) that the collector market puts prices on vintage tools that are unsupportable from a users perspective. So I recognized that reality and didn't whine about it. That's why my common bench planes are Stanleys, and my low angle smoother and jack are LV or LN which, IMHO, are superior to the vintage variety anyway. I saved up, sold off surplus tools and sold a few pieces and bit the bullet and bought the LV and LNs. I didn't think that I was "entitled" to the vintage tools then, and nothing I have read in this thread has come close to changing my view.

This country has been watching Oprah for so long now that everybody is convinced they are a victim of one sort or another and thus "entitled" to something. Its quite surprising to me that this attitude has now infected the neander crowd, known for their self sufficiency and creativity. But I guess things change, sometimes not for the better.

[Brian Greb]

Last time I noticed, we lived in America, under a capitalist system.

There are sellers, and buyers. Goods trade for what someone is willing to sell them for, and what someone is willing to pay. Simple as that. Demonizing (e.g., "vultures, idiots, loosers [sic]") buyers of whatever you particularly want is a useless, and ultimately empty, exercise. The sense of entitlement is astonishing.

I figured out over 15 years ago (and its not such a hard conclusion to reach) that the collector market puts prices on vintage tools that are unsupportable from a users perspective. So I recognized that reality and didn't whine about it. That's why my common bench planes are Stanley's, and my low angle smoother and jack are LV or LN which, IMHO, are superior to the vintage variety anyway. I saved up, sold off surplus tools and sold a few pieces and bit the bullet and bought the LV and LNs. I didn't think that I was "entitled" to the vintage tools then, and nothing I have read in this thread has come close to changing my view.

This country has been watching Oprah for so long now that everybody is convinced they are a victim of one sort or another and thus "entitled" to something. Its quite surprising to me that this attitude has now infected the neander crowd, known for their self sufficiency and creativity. But I guess things change, sometimes not for the better.

As previously stated VENTING.... collectors are good for the economy and the market as a whole. AS FOR THE NAME CALLING IN THE POST YOU QUOTED... I was pokeing fun at another statement in another post. As for entitlement the only things in this world I feel entitled to is life liberty and the pursuit of happyness... oh yhea and all the crap i work hard for and pay for. I don't feel entitled to vintage tool I also don't feel entitled to new tools... I have just been having a tough go at getting what I "need" on a shoestring budget.

I suppose in the future I should write <venting> or <with sarcasm> in the future so people don't misconstrue what I'm saying as an attack.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Lets tone down the rhetoric which is rapidly approaching the point where people are making personal attacks. Recognize that opinions will differ and you will not always be able to convert someone to your view of things. I do not want to have to either edit or lock this thread. I will however ask posters to go back and re-read their post and then edit them. Things have become very borderline.

[Steve Dallas]

As previously stated VENTING.... collectors are good for the economy and the market as a whole. AS FOR THE NAME CALLING IN THE POST YOU QUOTED... I was pokeing fun at another statement in another post. As for entitlement the only things in this world I feel entitled to is life liberty and the pursuit of happyness... oh yhea and all the crap i work hard for and pay for. I don't feel entitled to vintage tool I also don't feel entitled to new tools... I have just been having a tough go at getting what I "need" on a shoestring budget.

I suppose in the future I should write <venting> or <with sarcasm> in the future so people don't misconstrue what I'm saying as an attack.

I'll see if I can dig up the Krenov quote from A Cabinetmakers Notebook (I think) about tools being made to be used, not collected. Then there's John Brown's rant in his book about tools sitting in museums (hundreds of the same thing - a reference to literally hundreds of travishers hanging in a chair museum in High Wycombe in Brown's case). There are plenty of other quotes one can find from recognizable names - Frid comes to mind as well as somebody who commented on the phenomenon. These won't be impressive arguments to the collecting crowd because they come from people with whom they have nothing in common.

[David Weaver]

Lets tone down the rhetoric which is rapidly approaching the point where people are making personal attacks. Recognize that opinions will differ and you will not always be able to convert someone to your view of things. I do not want to have to either edit or lock this thread. I will however ask posters to go back and re-read their post and then edit them. Things have become very borderline.

Perhaps those scrapping could hurl their insults over PMs. It's really too fun not to do it, you feel like you gotta get it out, I know - but it's not cool when the thread gets locked from the rest of us who aren't involved in the spat but like the content of the thread. PM seems like a good compromise, and the warring factions can put each other on ignore once they've had it out in private.

It does appear, though, that of the two big WWing boards, this one is now the one that is *less* (or more thoughtfully) moderated. Who'd have thought!

Thanks for being patient Dave, and not just torching the whole thing.

[Caspar Hauser]

Well, I stopped by the ironmongers on the way home and the two No 2's he has on the shelves are outside your given range. However it occurs to me that keeping a weather eye on auction sites such as this http://www.mjdtools.com/auction/al10_list.htm * as opposed to E-bay might prove worth while.

CH

*never used it, not an endorsement.

[Dave Anderson NH]

David, this is a great group of people and by and large everyone is self-policing and makes my job relatively easy. I have only had to lock 3-4 threads in 7 years of moderating Neanderthal Haven and have deleted perhaps 20. Almost all of the deleted threads were for trying to sell on the forum, so generally this group knows how to play well with others. It is inevitable though that once in a while emotions get ot of control and someone posts in haste. The up side of this is that folks can go back and edit their own posts for up to 24 hours and remove the silliness that some day could come back to embarrass them. It's rare in life that second chances are so readily available.

[Jim Koepke]

I still won't pay over $90 for a basket case... especially if its missing the blade or has a broken cap.

Prices were a bit stronger when I bought mine. I was considering the LN, but finally did win the bid on one at about $212 with the shipping. It was refinished and in great shape. It does not get a lot of use, but at times it is the best tool for the job.


I guess that was fine and good I mean it had a price tag on it so I could just pay that price. Just as i was thinking this the guy offered the shop owner three times what the price was on the plane(just shy of 400). If that isn't enough to piss anyone off I had just talked the lady down to 95 due to the planes condition(from a users pov).After he bought the plane he said "this will look great next to the others", I kid you knot. This and many other examples is where my distaste for collectors comes from... eBay is just a new example of frustration. So yes some are nice guys and others are jerks.

That is enough to put the Pope in a fit.
I would have told the seller that we already made a deal and if they wanted to do business with a shill working for them, they would surely not do business with me or anyone that I know.

jim

[Ed Griner]

Brian, I have a couple of #2s,users,collectibles,maybe,they are the last planes I reach for when doing a project.My 605,#3,78,and shoulder plane(I forget the make)are the ones that seem to be the most useful to me in thirty years of woodworking.I have acquired most of the must have planes over the years(no,#1s).I'm sure you will find a #2 if you continue to look,I hope you are not disappointed,when you get it. Good luck/Ed

[David Weaver]

That is enough to put the Pope in a fit.
I would have told the seller that we already made a deal and if they wanted to do business with a shill working for them, they would surely not do business with me or anyone that I know.

jim

I probably would've giggled because some idiot paid $400 for a basket case 2 and after this wave of HT woodworking is over and the generation who hoardes planes starts to disappear, it'll probably be worthless.

[Steve Southwood]

I wasn't going to post, but why not. I too believe that tools are meant to be used. When I go to auctions around here, I buy everyone that comes up. I will however stop at about $15. Unless it is a really odd one. Mostly 4 and 5's are found. I have also found a year around flea market that is full of old iron. Bought there a couple times. Extras, yes I have some. Consider them more like parts donors. I bought a #5 last weekend for 3 bucks. Looks like it was stored in metal bucket, on end. The rust at the toe is deep and not repairable. All other parts are good. So between that one and the #5 I had, one good plane will be made. All other parts will be sold off.

2 more auctions this weekend, tools are in the ad. So off I go.

[James Bosley]

I also wont pay asking price for a Stanley #2, much less a 602, however I found a Sargent 407 for less than a Stanley in simlar user condition. The Sargent has a heavier WWII style casting. It also has a wider mouth than a typical Stanley that, I expect, will allow the use of an LN #2 blade. This combination should give a better operating plane at less than the cost of the Stanley and I wont have to open the mouth to accept the LN blade. Best of both worlds. I'll post back when I get serious about this plane and have an LN blade installed.

[Gary Roberts]

Forget the #2 or #602, get yourself a #3. It's an all around small plane that does a great job. I prefer the low knob versions of the turn of the century but that's my thing. I have two for use. Along with the #4 and #5, the #3 seems to be my go-to plane for anything small or delicate.

BTW... I'm a collector from way back as well as a user and occasional dealer too. Some tools are best left for history and some for use. The #2, as has been pointed out, is not as rare as some people would like it to be. It simply has a 'name' to it that brings in more bucks. Think of when it was created... people, as a rule, had smaller physiques than they do now. The #2 would have been suited to those with smaller hands.