Finish planing advice

[Mike Schueler]

(Re reading this I realize it's wordy....sorry)

After 3.5 yrs of dabbling in woodworking hobby, It Has Happened: I obtained a fair bit of beautiful curly maple, and I plan to make it into a dining table as soon as I can without ruining it. As per an earlier post, my power planer (which I use for thickness planing) is out of commission for a bit, so I have time for more thinking.

So. I hate sanding, would always prefer hand planing. I have two planes, both Lee valley bevel up planes. One is the Low Angle Jack, the other is the smoother plane. The smoother plane has had problems with tracks from the corners; after reviewing stuff here and getting some advice, I found that I needed to put a camber on the iron. THis is not easy. My preferred angle is 38 degrees, but with bevel up iron the amount of steel removed is unwieldly. So, I took my 25 degree iron, used the veritas mk II honing guide with camber roller, and with a moderate amount of effort ground a gently rounded camber onto the blade starting with 200 grit wet stone, then progressed onward. Then, I sharpened a micro bevel for 38 degrees ontop of this. This step was .... weird. It felt like I was destroying my sharpening stones because of the high angle and scraping ocurring. I admit I didn't get much of a bevel, as I was getting tired and wanted to see how it would work, and I could add more to it. However, when I tried to plane a bit of maple it really didn't do well at all -- instead of shavings I got powder and chips. The surface wasn't really harmed but I didn't get smoothness.

So. Here's my question after my life story: I am willing to buy a standard smoothing plane (LV or Veritas) IF, IF it really can smooth without tracks. However, do I just need to keep trying with the 25 degree base, 38 degree microbevel, with a wider amount of blade sharpened at 38 degrees? I am a tad frustated! Anyone out there gotten outstanding results with the bevel up smoother? WITHOUT using a specialized sharpening tools beyond a handful of stones and a guide?

Thanks.

[Greg Becker]

I have the LV BU smoother and do not get tracks. I have the blade honed to 8000 grit at 38 degrees with no micro or back bevel. Setting the blade for a gossamer thin cut seems to be the solution. This means getting the surface absolutely level using a jointer (in my case a #6 set up as a very fine cut "jointer" until my LV BU jointer arrives).

If you look at the thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=141496 towards the end you'll see a discussion of cambering a Bevel Up blade. Derek from Perth has a very well developed method (that you may have followed) that includes the 25 degree followed by the 38 or 50 degree micro bevel.

I have proposed an alternative that I haven't had time yet to test (also, with the smoother I have had no need yet) where putting a slight radius curve up at both corners ON THE BACK of the blade should accomplish the same thing. As I figure, the goal of the camber is to lift the corner of the blade off the work surface. Fine with a bevel down blade where the bevel side is the primary cutting surface. A bevel up has the back of the blade as the primary cutting surface so putting a slight upward curve at the corners should also lift the corner with less metal removal.

As soon as I get a chance to test this (it may have to wait for my return from a gig in Kabul in a month) but I will post the results on Neanderthal Haven.

Good luck.

[Andrew Gibson]

I would think for the BUS you should be able to get a very slight radius with directed pressure to the corners for a few strokes when sharpening. I have not used a BU plane as of yet but I do have one on my list. I would bet with the attention to the corners you should quite easily get rid of the tracks

Because you take such a fine shaving with a smoothing plane the radius needed is so minimal that a couple thousands relief on the corners should be all you need. I would think that at most it would only take a few extra strokes then for a BD plane.

As for the jack a little trial and error might be in order to get the radius right for what you want the plane to do.

As for the 25*/38* bevels, I would think that the difference might be a little extreme.
I would be tempted to experiment with a 30* main bevel or even a 35* main bevel then use the 3*-8* micro bevel

Keep in mind this is all speculation, but having read what Derek Cohen has on his page I would think that his info is sound, so my thoughts that a different main bevel are not better then his experience.

[David Keller NC]

Mike - One thing to realize is that with a BU plane, the required amount of camber is higher (i.e., smaller radius of the curve) than it is with a BD design. There are many ways to get this camber, and I suspect you've just not put enough of it in to avoid the tracks on the side of the blade with a 1-2 thousandths shaving thickness.

However, since all you're getting is dust and chips rather than shavings, I'm suspecting that you don't really have the blade sharp. When you're done honing, you should have 1) a mirror polish on the business bevel (the cutting edge), and 2) you should be able to cut a piece of paper from the weight of the blade alone without tearing - the separate pieces should basically fall away from the blade & and it should take little or no effort. The edge should also feel really sharp if you drage your finger perpendicularly over the cutting edge (obviously, be careful when you're doing this).

One note - since you note a scraping action on your stones, you may actually be dubbing the very edge of of the blade. One way to avoid this is to put the final, steep cutting bevel on only by pulling the blade toward you, not pushing.

[lowell holmes]

I have proposed an alternative that I haven't had time yet to test (also, with the smoother I have had no need yet) where putting a slight radius curve up at both corners ON THE BACK of the blade should accomplish the same thing

It works! I rounded the corners of the irons on the LV planes I have (the bu jack and smoother). I did so after emailing LV about cambering the irons. They responded with the thought of radiusing the corners. My planes leave no tracks.

I highly recommend the bu smoother. It does a fantastic job. It handles curly maple quite well.

I have all of the irons available. The 50 degree iron and the 50 degree toothed iron will handle about anything.

I put a micro bevel and a slight back bevel on my irons. It makes a very sharp cutting edge.

[michael osadchuk]

I don't think going to bevel down plane is any magic solution. I have the LV bevel up 'low angle smoother' (only very slightly smaller than the BUS, with straight sides) and I find it to be even a bit better finishing plane than my LN bronze no. 4 bevel down plane, likely because I can close down the throat of these LV planes.

Like others and especially David, I suspect the problem is final honing of blade edge (I gather you have dealt with the cambering issue). You should not be experiencing 'scraping' on the finishing sharpening stone. From past posts, you mentioned you have an 8000 grit stone - which probably is 'fine enough' but you could rub some honing compound (chromium oxide, etc.) - from LV, but others carry same/similar - on some mdf, with a bit of mineral oil (baby oil) and get to about 12k in grit.

We use to be able to pick up cheapo ($10-15) handheld illuminated pocket microscopes that had a magnification range up to 100x; they were fussy to use but they really showed the scratches/corrugations leading to the edge and jaggedness of the the final edge unless I took handplane blades meant for a smoother plane to good level of 8000 or beyond honing.
Another way to test an edge is to lightly run the blade edge against your thumbnail; blade edge should 'catch' and not roll along the surface of the nail.

good luck

michael

[Mike Schueler]

Success at last.

I am not sure what really did it, but I tried everything listed.

I re-did the microbevel starting at 200, then 1,000 then 8,000. First, however, I turned the blade over and on the corners only honed a teeny little rounded back bevel by hand.

Each grit I stopped only when I could feel a burr on the underside, then de burred and went on.

I put a cut off piece of the curly maple on the bench and went over it a few times, and I've got a glass-smooth almost iridescent finish!

There are one or two "rub marks" -- not sure what that's from -- but I can do something like a p600 sanding by hand before putting my dye and shellac on, or just keep the rub marks.

Thanks, I can't believe it worked!

[Josh Bowman]

I may be not understanding your question. You want to plane curly maple right? Isn't this why God made scrapers and scraper planes? So we could plane unwieldy grains? If a Low Angle plane can handle this, I may need to rethink buying one.:rolleyes:

[Greg Becker]

It works! I rounded the corners of the irons on the LV planes I have (the bu jack and smoother). I did so after emailing LV about cambering the irons. They responded with the thought of radiusing the corners. My planes leave no tracks.

I highly recommend the bu smoother. It does a fantastic job. It handles curly maple quite well.

I have all of the irons available. The 50 degree iron and the 50 degree toothed iron will handle about anything.

I put a micro bevel and a slight back bevel on my irons. It makes a very sharp cutting edge.

I'm very glad that it works, and that it was suggested by Lee Valley. I did not see any of their technical information that talked about radiusing the backs but it is (to me) the logical approach once you stop thinking of a Bevel Up iron the same as a bevel down blade.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm very glad that it works, and that it was suggested by Lee Valley. I did not see any of their technical information that talked about radiusing the backs but it is (to me) the logical approach once you stop thinking of a Bevel Up iron the same as a bevel down blade.

I have mentioned relieving the corners on the "back" of a bevel down plane iron. I discovered this when working the backs of old blades to get rid of pits. I did not flatten the back all the way to the edge and the blade does not cut since the metal does not touch the wood.

Stands to reason one could do the same thing intentionally.

The back is in quotes because even though this is the back of the blade in relation to the bevel, it is pointing toward the front of the plane when in use.

jim

[Dan Karachio]

Hmm. just when I thought I might want a LB BU smoother, cambering the *back* is too much for this sharpening newby - I'm doing okay now, so don't want to push it! I do love my LV BU jack though. Any way, my LN #4 bronze left tracks, but using their suggested sharpening method (see YouTube, this month's FWW or download a pdf from their site) I have great results.

Honestly, with all the sharpening threads and opinions, a new person here barely stands a chance. Lie Nielsen was super super smart to make it simple, easy and clear (why did they wait so long?). It can only help them sell more of their wonderful tools and Lee Valley too.

[lowell holmes]

Maybe I misled in my response. I did not camber the back. The quick simple solution to plane tracks is to radius the corners of the cutting edge (bevel) with a stone. It only takes 5 minutes and it works! I might have mis-understood Gregs post. I radiused the corners after an email exchange with LV. :o

[Mike Schueler]

I think we're making this sound more complex than it really is. Don't get discouraged, I am as amateur as can be and got it working nicely.