How clear for SYP Laminated Workbench

[Rick Akl]

What are the largest defects that you would permit on a laminated benchtop. The #2 that I've been finding lately sure leaves alot to be desired. The bench will be a Roubo design with a target thickness of 4" and 8' in length.

[Tom Scott]

I tried to minimize knots as much as possible, but that is hard with SYP. I picked through the stack and used 2x8's that were then ripped (larger sizes have much better lumber). Any knots ended up in the middle to bottom of the slab so it didn't matter.

[Chip Lindley]

I would not want any pine knots showing on my nice, labor-intensive SYP workbench. Although knots can be filled with epoxy, and would in no way affect the function of your workbench, it's just a matter of persnickity pride!

You will have to be allowed to pick through lots of boards to find just the right ones to keep the top, sides and ends *clear* and hide any knots within the laminations.

Hint: #2 lumber is more defect-free than #3! Usually wider/longer boards have fewer defects. A 16ft 2x12 will have less knots than an 8ft 2x8.

[Don Alexander]

why would you want to make it out of SYP ? maybe its just me disliking SYP but i think i would make something like this out of maple or something along that line

[Rick Akl]

It's strong, dense, has a high modulus of elasticity, less than 1/6 the cost of maple, readily available locally, easy to mill, etc...

Southern yellow pine is a favorite of Chris Schwarz. He covered it in his book and convinced me that it is at the very least, worthy of my first handtool workbench.
Don't get me wrong, I love maple. I have 200bf of it seasoning for the final build. I just would like to try out a design/height/depth before committing to doing it in maple.

[Neal Clayton]

in addition to that, and related to a thread in the contributor's forum that you all might not see with a guy showing us his salvage find of real old growth boards, there's yellow pine then there's yellow pine. 'home depot pine' is really no better than poplar, imo. the yellow pine workbench you see in an antique shop from 200+ years ago is made of wood not available outside of salvage type businesses. even the occasional ~150 to 200 year old log i come across is a far cry from the quality of the ~350-400 year old logs that the old idea of southern yellow pine represents.

i think white oak or other commonly available domestic closed-pored hardwood would be a better choice, in this day and age. even if you have better quality yellow pine, it would be better used on something other than a shop bench.

from top to bottom in the pic below, a 'home depot pine' shim, the door frame scrap came from a ~175 year old SYP tree i recently came across felled by a tornado and had milled up, and the door casing scrap is from a 350-400 year old log that came from salvaged beams i came across in new orleans awhile back.

the difference in quality is pretty apparent. you're not gonna find the third example for less than 5-10 dollars a foot. the middle option if you're native to the regions the trees grow in sometimes show up as storm salvage, but they're really not that hard at that stage in the tree's life, they just look like the old stuff. good for trim use if you need to match newly built things to an old building built with SYP, but that's about it. and the first, as we all know, is good for shims and jigs, not much else.

[Ben Davis]

in addition to that, and related to a thread in the contributor's forum that you all might not see with a guy showing us his salvage find of real old growth boards, there's yellow pine then there's yellow pine. 'home depot pine' is really no better than poplar, imo. the yellow pine workbench you see in an antique shop from 200+ years ago is made of wood not available outside of salvage type businesses. even the occasional ~150 to 200 year old log i come across is a far cry from the quality of the ~350-400 year old logs that the old idea of southern yellow pine represents.

i think white oak or other commonly available domestic closed-pored hardwood would be a better choice, in this day and age. even if you have better quality yellow pine, it would be better used on something other than a shop bench.

from top to bottom in the pic below, a 'home depot pine' shim, the door frame scrap came from a ~175 year old SYP tree i recently came across felled by a tornado and had milled up, and the door casing scrap is from a 350-400 year old log that came from salvaged beams i came across in new orleans awhile back.

the difference in quality is pretty apparent. you're not gonna find the third example for less than 5-10 dollars a foot. the middle option if you're native to the regions the trees grow in sometimes show up as storm salvage, but they're really not that hard at that stage in the tree's life, they just look like the old stuff. good for trim use if you need to match newly built things to an old building built with SYP, but that's about it. and the first, as we all know, is good for shims and jigs, not much else.
I agree with Neal on most points that he makes. Some of the SYP that is used in shims and very small stuff (1x2, 1x1, firring strips, etc), is a far cry from quality wood. Heck a lot of tress that small get ground up for pulp to make paper!

I made my Roubo workbench out of SYP from the Lowe's close to my home. Sticking with the 2"x12"x16' stock, I got nearly knot-free boards that look just like Neal's the middle picture. In fact one or two of the boards are very, very, tight grained. I counted over 80 rings in one board.

SYP will make a bench that you can beat the heck out of and no feel terrible about it. The mass of a 4" thick top more than makes up for any softness of the wood. I have about $100 in lumber in mine, maybe a little more. I did made the face vice out of ash.

[Britt Lifsey]

I like your bench.

[Neal Clayton]

I agree with Neal on most points that he makes. Some of the SYP that is used in shims and very small stuff (1x2, 1x1, firring strips, etc), is a far cry from quality wood. Heck a lot of tress that small get ground up for pulp to make paper!

I made my Roubo workbench out of SYP from the Lowe's close to my home. Sticking with the 2"x12"x16' stock, I got nearly knot-free boards that look just like Neal's the middle picture. In fact one or two of the boards are very, very, tight grained. I counted over 80 rings in one board.

SYP will make a bench that you can beat the heck out of and no feel terrible about it. The mass of a 4" thick top more than makes up for any softness of the wood. I have about $100 in lumber in mine, maybe a little more. I did made the face vice out of ash.

yep, the heartwood just starts to grow in the tree around the ~100 year point in the tree's life. that's when it gets heavier, gets stronger, and the rings start to tighten up. it takes another 200 years from that point, from what i've seen, for the log to become predominantly heartwood, at that point it's basically transformed from the density of a softwood to the density of a hardwood. but the adolescent trees are pretty overpriced at lowes/home depot, i pay around a dollar a foot for lumber out of trees less than 200 years old from the local lumberyard here.

[Ben Davis]

yep, the heartwood just starts to grow in the tree around the ~100 year point in the tree's life. that's when it gets heavier, gets stronger, and the rings start to tighten up. it takes another 200 years from that point, from what i've seen, for the log to become predominantly heartwood, at that point it's basically transformed from the density of a softwood to the density of a hardwood. but the adolescent trees are pretty overpriced at lowes/home depot, i pay around a dollar a foot for lumber out of trees less than 200 years old from the local lumberyard here.
Wow. I can get 1x12x16' for around $10-$12 at my Lowe's!

[John Thompson]

I would use the SYP and save the 200 bf of maple for furniture in your shoes Rick. I have built 5 work-benches since 1994 with SYP tops and Doug Fir bases. SYP is very cheap as stated by a few here in the south. When it dries over time it will case harden in many cases. I could show you homes studded with it built 100 years ago that it would be difficult to drive a nail in at this point.

Here's how I choose when I intend to build a SYP top which might require a bit of patience. You might find what you need in one trip.. might take 2-4. I go through a rack and look for straight on the shelf with the fewest knots. I am looking for 1 x 10 as I build 3" thick tops. If you want 4" I would look for 1 x 12 and there is a reason. Not only look for straight but look at the end grain. What I am looking for will look like this.. //////0//////. If you see a long curved arc it is from the outer portion of a larger tree in 1 x 12. I am looking for boards with the pith as close to center as the above shows.

Once I have them I let them acclimate in the shop for the moisture to drop then.. rip the 1/8" round-over on both sides off. Then I rip to 3" (4" in your case off each side which will yield two strips that look like this /////// and //////. The center piece with the pith will look like this. //0//. Simply save it for a utility project or throw it away. The pith is the most unstable portion of the board. If you want stability with the least amount of flattening (and All woods with have to be flattened eventually) don't use the pith portion. SYP is cheap down south so don't skimp as you have already saved a ton of money over maple.. beech. etc.

I get about 1/16" movement a year in my shop which varies from 75% moisture in summer to 22% in winter with gas heat. I can flatten that with a #7 and smoother or use my Bosch power planer and be back to flat in 45 minutes once a year. Vise components I do make from maple. As far as dents with heavy pounding.. so what. I have scars all over my body and that has never stopped me from working. haha... Work-benches are made to work (I assume that it what you intend in lieu of a show shop) so treat them accordingly.

Trust me.. SYP tops will work great.. is cheap and they have been in use a long time before Chris Schwarz climbed out of the cradle. He didn't come up with the idea for them.. he just capitalized on what many southern WW'ers have been doing for a long time. ;)

Good luck...

[David Thompson 27577]

What are the largest defects that you would permit on a laminated benchtop. The #2 that I've been finding lately ..........

Well, there's your problem. You're using a lumber grade that specifically includes knots.

See if a lumber yard near you stocks either #1 SYP -- it's usually available as either 3/4" thick or full one inch (5/4) stock. In years long gone, it was used extensively for exterior trim on houses.

And depending on locality, it might not be called #1 -- it bight be called "C and better".

[Bas Pluim]

I've built a workbench using SYP, it worked out great. If you're going to buy construction lumber at Home Depot, don't go on the weekend. The contracters buy the good straight stuff during the week, and leave the twisted, warped and split material. Those useless boards aren't removed and replaced until Monday morning. Bring a friend to help you dig through the stack.

[Rick Akl]

#2 is all I've been able to find in 2x12s. I was hoping to avoid the additional work of using 1x12s but the work seems to actually be in the 2x12s. Thank you all for the advice. I'll reward ya with pics when done;).

[michael osadchuk]

What are the largest defects that you would permit on a laminated benchtop. The #2 that I've been finding lately sure leaves alot to be desired. The bench will be a Roubo design with a target thickness of 4" and 8' in length.

Rick

As per your later post I assume you are ripping members out the 2x12s and face gluing these members to create an almost 4" thick benchtop.

If so, if the defect is well buried in specific member I would use that member without cutting it. Otherwise I would saw out the defect area and use the resulting two pieces for that row of the lamination: the butt to butt joint in that row is well supported by the face joints in the two surrounding rows. If you have to do use two (or more) pieces in an adjacent row, just ensure that you stagger the butt joints from row to row.

good luck

michael

[John R Green]

a Real Lumber Yard? Get on the phone with the saleman that calls on the builders (if there are any left in your area) Ask for #1 SYP OR call a truss mfg, they should have a good selection of #2 and probably some #1.

Call a builder and ask them where the closest Real Lumber Yard is other than Lowes or Home Depot.

Google may help too.

John

[John Thompson]

#2 is all I've been able to find in 2x12s. I was hoping to avoid the additional work of using 1x12s but the work seems to actually be in the 2x12s. Thank you all for the advice. I'll reward ya with pics when done;).

Rick.. I referred to 1 x's in my post. I was in a hurry to cut grass before a thunder-shower. I meant 2 x stock as you are looking at as it will cut down glue-up time. Sorry.. my bad!

[Eric Acle]

Hi John & Michael,

I was in the same boat. I was trying to avoid butt jointing but it looks like that will be the case with any locally sourced wood including the 1x12s. I've tried all the local lumber yards. #1 won't come cheap for such a small order. It'll probably just need 8-10 2x12x16s. I hadn't thought of the truss companies. That's a great idea. I'll give'em a try.

Take care.

[Rick Akl]

Hi John & Michael,

I was trying to avoid butt jointing but it looks like that will be the case with any locally sourced wood including the 1x12s.



Thanks for saving me the trip to check out the 1x12s. I used to live up there and there's a truss company off of bird and the palmetto. The name escapes me but you could yellow book it. Let me know how it goes.

[Eric Acle]

Thanks for the heads up Rick. I'll PM you the prices when I get them if you like. Maybe we could combine our orders to save a little?

[Rick Akl]

PMed for better contact details.