Finishing Red Oak Bookcase

[James Rousel]

Hello everyone, my question is about finishing a new red oak bookcase. I would like to make the wood darker while not losing the 'look' of the oak.

I am planning on using shellac as my finish (topped off with a buffed wax coat). My first question: if I use a dark garnet shellac (1.5lb cut) and go with three/four coats, will it get progressively darker?

Second question: I am also thinking about putting down an initial layer of Watco Danish Oil (probably the Medium Walnut tint) and then going with three/four layers of the shellac. Are there any problems with that approach?

Any advice/thoughts are greatly appreciated.

[Prashun Patel]

The shellac won't get too progressively darker.
Red oak takes pigment stains pretty well. So if the garnet isn't dark enough on a test piece, you can start with the stain.
If it were me, I wouldn't put shellac over the Danish Oil. At one point I might have, but I now believe there are better ways to get color into the wood.

[Scott Holmes]

Building a thick coat of shellac, as you would with a varnish or lacquer, is a bad idea...

The perfect shellac finish is the thinnest possible coat that is flawless. Too thick and it will alligator.

As for color shellac will work over stain or dye and even Watco finish. I agree that stain or dye would be better than the Watco for color.

[Neal Clayton]

you can get 3-4 coats of shellac down with brush or wipe and keep it smooth, but more than that, or if it's sprayed, can be hard to keep even.

as an alternative, if you use a thicker varnish on top of the shellac that's similar in color, you can apply many coats, disregarding minor alligatoring, buff the shellac afterward to get it smooth to the touch, and the varnish will hide imperfections in the shellac.

i use that method on alot of things, it comes out pretty well. gives an antique type look, similar to what you see on pieces with heavy wax buildup (obscured grain).

waterlox particularly is similar in color to garnet, that's what i use for the varnish.

[James Rousel]

Thanks for your replies guys.

I tested a little Medium Walnut Danish Oil last night and, while I like the way the grain popped, it was not quite as dark as I was hoping.

After reading your responses, I am undecided if I should try to mix a couple of different Watco Danish Oils to get a bit darker colour or if I should abandon the oil altogether. I am hesitant to go with stain as I only really have three brands available to me (MinWax, Varethane, and Benjamin Moore), none of which make the wood look as nice as the Danish Oil does. Thoughts?

On the Shellac front, I assume three 1.5 lb cut coats is okay?

[Scott Holmes]

If you want it darker; skip the Watco altogether and use a dye.

[Tom Henderson2]

Thanks for your replies guys.

I tested a little Medium Walnut Danish Oil last night and, while I like the way the grain popped, it was not quite as dark as I was hoping.

After reading your responses, I am undecided if I should try to mix a couple of different Watco Danish Oils to get a bit darker colour or if I should abandon the oil altogether. I am hesitant to go with stain as I only really have three brands available to me (MinWax, Varethane, and Benjamin Moore), none of which make the wood look as nice as the Danish Oil does. Thoughts?

On the Shellac front, I assume three 1.5 lb cut coats is okay?

I'm a newb, but have had good luck with Watco on red oak. I have a set of coffee/end tables that I finished with Watco Medium Walnut over 25 years ago, and they still look great and have held up well.

I did have a planter that puddled some water on top of the coffee table; but I just sanded the area where the grain had been raised and reapplied watco and that fixed the problem. Easy, and didn't even have to move it out of the living room.

So consider using Watco as the only finish on the bookcase. The worst thing that can happen is that you'll need to re-oil the shelves occasionally.

Just my $0.02. I know many prefer to put a topcoat on Watco, but I've had good luck without it. I suspect you will too.

-Tom

[Neal Clayton]

Thanks for your replies guys.

I tested a little Medium Walnut Danish Oil last night and, while I like the way the grain popped, it was not quite as dark as I was hoping.

After reading your responses, I am undecided if I should try to mix a couple of different Watco Danish Oils to get a bit darker colour or if I should abandon the oil altogether. I am hesitant to go with stain as I only really have three brands available to me (MinWax, Varethane, and Benjamin Moore), none of which make the wood look as nice as the Danish Oil does. Thoughts?

On the Shellac front, I assume three 1.5 lb cut coats is okay?

yep, 1.5 to 2 is about right. i find that 2 pounds is just about right for brushing on vertical surfaces without runs.

[James Rousel]

I put an extra layer of the Watco on earlier today and am starting to like the colour now.

Maybe a couple of layers of shellac over a couple of layers of Danish oil, finished off with a layer of buffed Liberon Black Bison Wax (neutral)...

[James Rousel]

Scott, you mentioned not using the Watco and going with a dye instead. Do you mean adding dye directly to the wood?

What about adding colour to an oil like BLO? I have read people saying they have had success adding artist's oil paint to BLO and using it as the first layer.

[Joe Chritz]

You could add the color to almost anything, especially something like transtint which is compatible with almost everything. Question is why? You aren't likely to get any real benefit over mixing with water or alcohol.

BLO is generally used to enhance the grain and add a touch of color. The dye does all that and add anywhere from a little to a lot of color.

I don't apply shellac with anything but a spray gun so I have no advice about wiping, padding or brushing.

I doubt you will see any real color change beyond one or two coats of shellac, plus a thick coating isn't desirable at all.

Joe

[Prashun Patel]

Don't get me wrong; mixing dye is fun. However, for Red Oak, IMHO, it's just unnecessary. Red oak has such a prominent grain and does not blotch, so using pigment stains straight from BORG is really good enough.

Anyway, now that you've got Danish oil on/in it, it's not going to accept dye or stain very well.

[Scott Holmes]

Shawn is correct if it's already been stain or had an oil/varnish blend added then dye or stain will do little to add color.

James, adding artist colors is the same as making a stain; not a dye.

Dye is for bare wood...so are stains. You said you wanted it darker than the Watco would make it, that's why I said use dye. If you like the Watco color, then proceed.

TransTint dye in alcolhol, will not raise the grain; mixed in water, it WILL raise the grain.

[James Rousel]

I guess my questions really arise from my inexperience. This is my first time really branching out away from MinWax stain with a poly finish. The area in which I live does not have a wide availability of wood finishing products.

The Danish Oil was only placed on scrap wood, so nothing has touched the final project yet. My goal is to use something that helps pop the grain while making the wood darker (though not ebony dark). That is why I keep coming back to the idea of using a first coat of oil and then finishing with shellac. The only problem is getting the colour.

Last night, I was at a local hardware shop and found cans of tung oil manufactured by a brand called Circa 1850. Talking to a guy there he told me he loves using it on raw wood. A little Internet investigation seems to indicate it is a relatively pure tung oil (with additives to help it apply and dry quicker). I may pick up a can to see how it looks on a scrap piece of oak.

A question about using dyes: I assume I mix a colour I like, add it to alcohol and apply it? Then I am free to add a layer of oil (tung, danish, or BLO) and follow it with a couple of coats of shellac? Or is that too much?

[Thomas Pender]

Really, Watco makes a Dark Walnut. there are also other walnut type stains out there, some have more black in them. I have dozens of cans of various stains and test pieces in a box and usually I can find what I want. Finally, I note that Rockler's Mission Oak is also a nice dark stain and the grain will pop really well. I freely confess I am not a big dye fan, I would rather rely upon what I know works and for me, it usually involves fuming followed by a polyacrylic or Target finish. However, I do not recommend fuming unless you know what you are doing.

[Prashun Patel]

James, you are right. Dyes do not contain binders. On the positive side, this means you can easily make it darker with successive applications (with a stronger concentration, that is) or lighten and blend it (with pure solvent). On the 'negative' side, once the dye is dry, you have to 'lock it in' so the top coat doesn't lift it out. It's not always necessary - especially if yr using an aniline dye (water/alcohol soluble) and an oil based topcoat - but for safety a lot of people 'shoot' a coat of dewaxed shellac on top. I say 'shoot', because if you try to brush or pad it, you can/will lift out the color.


Reading your goals and yr desire to branch out from minwax, I now recommend you invest in a couple bottles of Transtint. You might also get a copy of "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. It's a great read, and you are at the right point to really appreciate it.

If it were me, I'd just do Transtint, then an oil based topcoat - no shellac. Try an oil/varnish blend; it won't build, but it's fun and preserves the feel of the wood.

[Scott Holmes]

James,

PURE TUNG OIL is a TERRIBLE finish don't believe the hype... Red oak will bleed and weep TU for days or longer; then, it will crytalize and get rough and ugly.