Is a Disston a Disston?

[Steve Stack]

While I'm here guess I'll ask another quick question. Are all saws with the Disston medalion good saws? After researching a bit it appeared that at some time they sold their name or rights to another company, yes, no? Any how I saw a Disston saw at a flea market for $8 and wonder if it's worth getting. Disston medallion, Wheat carving on handle, and on the blade It appeared to say Rancher, hard to see after someone cleaned the rust off. It was hard to feel any set to the teeth so don't know if it is rip or if the set was removed in the cleaning process. Does this sound like a keeper or a keep looking? Thanks, Steve

[lowell holmes]

For $8, what is the risk?

You can make scratch stock and scrapers from the blade if it doesn't suit you.

I recently made a nondescript saw (definitely not a Disston) into a rip toolbox saw and I am quite pleased with it.

[David Weaver]

Not an expert on disston saws, but the name was sold to HK porter. At least some of the saws were made in danville, VA, I think.

That doesn't make them bad saws.

A saw is not a complicated thing. If the saw you're looking at is reasonably good steel and is tapered, then it's probably a pretty good saw.

I have a bunch of older and newer saws (none new enough to be porter, though), and the biggest difference I see between them is the level of polish. If they're waxed, I don't really notice a difference in use.

Check the tooth geometry next time instead of the set to be able to tell if it's rip or crosscut.I have some crosscut saws with not much set, and I have and have seen a lot of rip saws with a lot more set than I'd want on anything for dry wood.

As said above, worst you have is some saw nuts and a plate to play with if you don't like it for $8.

[Bill Houghton]

I am no way an authority, or even somone who knows much, about Disston saws; but I believe the "Rancher" line was late in Disston's production life (maybe/probably after it was sold to HK Porter), and that the saws were kind of what you'd expect from the name: thick saw plates, rough, intended to ride around in the pickup truck and cut fence boards.

You may be able to find more information here: http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

[Jim Koepke]

Saws can bring a lot of enjoyment in this hobby.

Knowing about them can bring even more.

The Norse Wood Smith site has a lot of information on saws, but it takes a little bit of noodling around to find it all. Here is a link that does contain an explanation of saw tooth geometry.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/sloped-gullets-finer-points-sharpening

Vintagesaws.com has a lot of information in their library about saws and a whole section on how to sharpen your own saws. That is where I first learned how to get started.

jim

[Richard Niemiec]

Check the Disstonian site and get familiar with the medallions, that gives you the approximate age of the saw. Essentially, anything made until shortly after WWII are going to give you good service, but I must admit its really neat to use a well preserved and sharpened saw that's over 100 years old. The trick is learning how to sharpen them properly, including re-toothing when needed. Look for saws with good wood, and straight saw plates. Don't leave out Atkins saws either, and some private label saws that were likely made either by Disston or Atkins. I have a couple of mid-50's Craftsman panel and backsaws which, save for their clunky handles, are great performers. There's also a bunch of other less known makers out there and those saws will give you good service as well. The magic is in the sharpening.

[Thomas Nye]

I have or have had well over 300+++ hand saws in my collection with 80% of them easily being Disstons. I believe all Disstons were of good quality, but as far as their Best Quality Saws, I would have to say anything under 1940, with the best under 1917 into the late 1800's. The only thing with trying to find a saw that is 100 years old is trying to find a good one......When I look for a saw, I first look for cracks/breaks/repairs to the handle. I then check out the medallion. Anyting that says H Disston & Sons is old and in that 1917 range which I like. ( I even have a C Disston & Sons ). I then check to make sure the blade is straight and check to see if any teeth are missing. A saw that old rarely has a perfectly straight blade. If it has a slight bend to the left or right, you can bend it back 90% of the time to be near perfectly straight. Looking down the pine can be deceiving. I look down the spine first, then I flip it over and look to make sure its straight down the teeth. If it is and the price is right, I bring it home and begin the restore. I do not know with the limited machinery in the late 1800's if the saws were perfectly straight or not, I am assuming they were because Disstons were the Rolls Royce of Hand Saws at the time........I am also not worried about surface rust unless its heavily pitted. If it just has a smooth surface rust on it, more than likely it will clean up nicely and when carfully going over the etch, you can begin to truely see your investment. If its very dark and pitted, your not going to see the etch anyways, but it can be cleaned up to be a usable and valuable saw. I was at a flea market last week and picked up a handsaw only to see there was a hole rusted all the way through it, the guy came running over and proceeded to tell me how a great saw it was and he only wanted $5.....lol. It was a Disston and it was a shame a old vintage Disston suffered such a demise. I have had Disstons into the 1860's to the 1950's+. I have one with a Diston-HKP Medallion, which was the first time I had seen that. To me, I am always looking for that Grail Disston NO. 43 and the like. I know I will find one eventually.....lol. I really dont look for a rip or crosscut in particular. I also dont check the set as that can be fixed. Your not going to find a perfect saw that is 100 years old, they do not exist, but if you look long enough, you will find one close enough. Early Disstons also had beautiful wheat carvings and the handles were elegently sculpted, very desirable traits to behold.........I have had Atkins and Simonds, cleaned them up very nice, but for some reason, they just do not sell as well as Disstons. I am selling and have sold some of my collection. When I sell 5 saws, I buy 5 more, so its an ongoing process for me. I enjoy cleaning them up and I have enjoyed the friendships of the many people who have bought them from me. I have a small pile of blades only that I have acquired and once I get my shop built, I plan to make some dovetail saws like the norsewoodworker made. If the saw you saw meets what I look for in a vintage hand saw, it was probably a good deal. Look on the Disstonion website and get to learn your medallions, that will give you an idea of year makes. Disston USA are newer while Disston Philada and Phila are older. If you have any other questions, ask away, I would be glad to help share what I know as far as what to look for. Enjoy !

[Russell Sansom]

What I learned in a year+ of acquiring saws was this: you have to put in some time with them. Buy a few. Get an eye for them. I think that's what people are telling you, basically. One cheapie is a good place to start. Out of 5 auction-site back saws I got one winner, two losers, and 2 in-between's. So, for $120, I got a great education and at least two saws that I could put into production within days.

[Steve Stack]

Thanks to all for the information. From what I remember it was a Disston USA medallion, so it would'nt have been one of the real old ones, and It appears the "Rancher" was a plain utilitarian model made after the company was sold. But it had a good heavy blade, straight, and not too rusty so I may get it if it is stil there next time I swing by there if for nothing else to have a $8 saw to practice sharpening on. Again thanks, Steve

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Very imformative thread! we are still going through a lot of my F-I-L's stuff that's stored in our garage, and among his tools are a few saws that have a Disston medallion on the handle. I didn't look too closely, but I did set them aside because I recalled the name from various posts here on SMC. I'll have to take a closer look and see if I can narrow down the vintage.

[george wilson]

I passed up a thumbhole Disston at a flea market in good shape for $12.00. I have wondered why ever since. this was a few weeks ago. I have several old saws and don't really need another. But,as few things as I did get,I was stupid not to get that Disston.

[David Weaver]

George - do you have a need for one or a desire for a thumbhole rip?

I got one from a woodnet seller last year or earlier this year for $15.

They go for goofy money on ebay, but so does everything else disston.

I just got a 12ppi split nut crosscut (including the old style medallion that's sunken into the saw flush) panel saw with nice tote work and stamp in the blade (the blade is straight) and the old english style tote that's on the back of the sawplate so you're not bearing down on the saw - for $20 on ebay, and a nice 16 inch spear and jackson split nut large backsaw also with a nice tote for $16. Also a straight saw with pretty much a full plate.

And a day later, a Bakewell Hardware long rip saw from the mid 1800s for something like $4.50, clearly stated to have all of its teeth and nothing I could see wrong from the picture. I bought it because i like the saws that have their names stamped into them instead along with or instead of etched. I have no need for it, and it did cost $12 to ship, but I like it and I get to like the disston 8 style saws less every day so my thumbhole rip saws lives are going to get short if all of these cheaper saws turn out OK.

If it says disston, it brings out the people spending funny money. Plus, there are a couple of "retail" sucker sellers who have a tendency to list them at 3x funny money.

Like:

"disston thumbhole rip, missing a few teeth, saw plate with a moderate wave but nothing that can be fixed, $99!!!! rare!"

[Marv Werner]

George,

The older Disston thumbhole saws, made prior to 1928 when Disston still had their better craftsmen working, the handles were much better made and fit the hand better. BTW....you won't like sawing with a thumbhole saw because you are left handed. The handle on those saws were designed to only fit a right hand. Even the better "two holers" aren't all that comfortable for a right hander. It's an interesting shape, but, in my opinion, not a practical handle to use for more than about five minutes. The best handle, again in my opinion, is the handle Disston made for their large 28" No.7 rip saws. The grip hole is a little higher up, allowing room for the thumb on the other hand and works well for either left or right handed use. This particular handle does not have the lamb's tongue. If you go on www.disstonianinstitute.com (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com) they show the different handle designs.

Marv

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Looks like my FIL saws are the D95 "Masterpiece". Plastic handle, 6 TPI rip and an 11 TPI crosscut. Nothing remarkable, but I still might clean them up and keep them to use.

[Dan Andrews]

I actually have a Disston Rancher. Mine is in good conditon and is quite a late model. The blade is thick with no taper. The tote is hard cornered and not very aesthetic. I find the ergonomics of the handle's overall profile and positioning to be comfortable enough, but I am sure it would blister if used for a long day's cutting. With all that said, it does cut well given a little more set than you would like for real clean cuts. I have used it for roughing out lumber and on used wood that I frequently use. It seems to stay sharp, though I don't have a lot of hours on it. It is a nice size little crosscut pannel saw. For $8.00 I would buy it if it was in good condition and I needed a pannel saw for a little of the rougher work.

[george wilson]

Marv,I have back,neck, and shoulder trouble now,and really don't use hand saws much except for back and dovetail saws. I didn't buy the thumbhole because I already have several choice old saws as well as ones I made.

For many years I worked in public with only hand tools,but I was younger then. Now,with a titanium implant in my back,and needing another one,and a fused neck,I don't plan to be ripping long boards anyway.

[harry strasil]

1840 ich.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/oldsaws.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/rip2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/rip1.jpg

Stamped not etched on the newer of the two.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/crscut1.jpg

its Medallion.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/crscut2.jpg

[Jonathan McCullough]

Looks like my FIL saws are the D95 "Masterpiece". Plastic handle, 6 TPI rip and an 11 TPI crosscut. Nothing remarkable, but I still might clean them up and keep them to use.

Those are pretty good saws. I have the crosscut version (nicknamed "Pinkie" (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1516165)), which has a pretty nice taper grind. You'll probably never have to fix the horns on the tote.

[Marv Werner]

Harry,

Now that's what we refer to when we talk about the old style handles, back when saw makers placed a priority on quality more than the maximum profit. It's wonderful to see a few of those old saws still around and well preserved. Some of them are sharpened and still being used. Compare those saws with saws that were made in the 50,s. The ones made in the 50,s make my eyes hurt.

Your No.8 during that time period is the same as Disston's No.7 but has an Applewood handle instead of Beech that was used on all No.7,s. Your No.8 could very well be one of the earliest saws that Disston made. They discontinued them around 1917.

Marv

[Sandy Stanford]

Saws can bring a lot of enjoyment in this hobby.

Knowing about them can bring even more.

The Norse Wood Smith site has a lot of information on saws, but it takes a little bit of noodling around to find it all. Here is a link that does contain an explanation of saw tooth geometry.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/sloped-gullets-finer-points-sharpening

Vintagesaws.com has a lot of information in their library about saws and a whole section on how to sharpen your own saws. That is where I first learned how to get started.

jim

A whole lot of that stuff is frankly crap. A joinery quality cross cut can be made with a 5 pt. rip frame saw if you knife the line first and have the ability to saw to one side of a knifed line. And all crosscuts should be knifed unless material is just being roughly broken down. The best Disston full size crosscut saw ever made will still tear out the back side of the cut to an unacceptable degree for furniture unless the cut line is incised all the way around the workpiece.

In other words, a knifed line is the great equalizer.

Save all your time, money, angst, and historical study of medallions (oy vey) by knifing your cut line and use whatever saw you have lying around because, frankly, whatever saw you have lying around will work just fine. The incised line is what you'll see when the cut is done and planed to the line.

[Sandy Stanford]

Looks like my FIL saws are the D95 "Masterpiece". Plastic handle, 6 TPI rip and an 11 TPI crosscut. Nothing remarkable, but I still might clean them up and keep them to use.

There isn't a soul on the planet who could tell the difference in cuts from those saws vs. the finest to ever the make the Disston line.

As long as they're sharp and you understand sawing they'll do the job just fine.

[Marv Werner]

A whole lot of that stuff is frankly crap. A joinery quality cross cut can be made with a 5 pt. rip frame saw if you knife the line first and have the ability to saw to one side of a knifed line. And all crosscuts should be knifed unless material is just being roughly broken down. The best Disston full size crosscut saw ever made will still tear out the back side of the cut to an unacceptable degree for furniture unless the cut line is incised all the way around the workpiece.

In other words, a knifed line is the great equalizer.

Save all your time, money, angst, and historical study of medallions (oy vey) by knifing your cut line and use whatever saw you have lying around because, frankly, whatever saw you have lying around will work just fine. The incised line is what you'll see when the cut is done and planed to the line.


Sandy,

So, what you are saying.....any ole saw laying around regardless as to it's condition or make or tooth profile will do any crosscut sawing job as long as the line is knifed? So, according to that scenario, there is no need to ever sharpen a dull saw? I will be willing to bet that 99.9% of anyone reading your post will soundly disagree with you. Include me in that majority.

Marv

[Sandy Stanford]

Sandy,

So, what you are saying.....any ole saw laying around regardless as to it's condition or make or tooth profile will do any crosscut sawing job as long as the line is knifed? So, according to that scenario, there is no need to ever sharpen a dull saw? I will be willing to bet that 99.9% of anyone reading your post will soundly disagree with you. Include me in that majority.

Marv

Ummmm, read my post, 'as long as they are sharp....'

Otherwise, yes. If you can incise a line with a square and saw to the waste side, leaving a little bit of clean up for a plane (you would have to do this with any panel or larger saw anyway) then you can make absoutely perfect, pristine dead square crosscuts with any kind of saw - rip or otherwise. If Tage Frid weren't dead you could ask him.

I'll happily give you or anybody else $5,000 for any full-sized Disston crosscut saw (super-vintage or otherwise) that DOESN'T rag the back of the cut. They all do. Hence the incised line. If you have to incise a line anyway then no reason to get lathered up over using a particular vintage antique saw to make the cut. We're talking cabinetmaking here, not rough carpentry.

[Marv Werner]

Read your post several times.....didn't see the word "sharp".....maybe I'm blind.? :cool:

I'll go look again.....


Nope, didn't see the word "sharp".

Marv

[Marv Werner]

Ohhhhh, ok, the word "sharp" is this post, not the one up above.

Sorry, my bad.

Marv

PS....I still don't agree with you.

[Sandy Stanford]

Ohhhhh, ok, the word "sharp" is this post, not the one up above.

Sorry, my bad.

Marv

PS....I still don't agree with you.

I don't want you to agree with me, I want you to discover it for yourself. Don't let everthing you know about sawing come from guys who sell antique saws or collect them as a hobby. They're biased. I've had antique saws, one really nice old Disston from Pete Taran. It cut fine but the gates of heaven didn't come close to opening up. Used it for about six months, hard by the way, and sold it for half what I paid for it. I sold it to some dude who practically had tears in his eyes. I bet it hasn't cut five lineal feet of lumber since I got rid of it.

Give me a square, a utility knife with a stiff blade, an impulse hardened toolbox saw with 8 ppi. from the 'Borg and I promise I can leave a vintage Disston in the dust. Same marking out implements but substitue a 7 to 9 ppi rip bowsaw and I can double my speed over that and not lose one scintilla of perfection in the cut. I can sharpen the bowsaw in half the time with three fourth's less all the hooray and who-shot-John too. It'll crosscut or rip, whatever cut is needed next, no problem.

Fair disclosure: I'm not much for coddling tools. I use well-maintained tools for the work they were meant to perform. I don't abuse them, but I don't rock them to bed at night with Brahm's Lullaby playing sweetly in the background either.