Drawer bottom stopped grooves

[Steve Stack]

Hey All, new here, but have been dipping my toes in the neander waters trying to figure out if I am willing to go ankle or knee deep. Can anyone direct me to a site, possibly with video of how to hand cut/plough stopped grooves for drawer bottoms? I've read several descriptions referring to plough planes, router planes, chisels, etc. but I am completely deft as to what is involved in using these tools to do this. To clarify a bit, Father's Day is coming up and LOML/SWLMBS(She who lets me buy stuff) has said get something you want. I'm thinking either Veritas plough plane or router plane, but only one at this time. Do I need these? Which one first? Is there a better choice? Thanks in advance because after lurking here a while I figure you guys will know. Regards, Steve

[Robert Rozaieski]

Typically, you don't cut stopped grooves for drawer bottoms when using hand tools. All grooves are plowed through, it's much faster and easier. The front of the drawer is half blind dovetails, so you bury the groove in the tail socket so it's not seen through the sides. The back of the drawer is shorter than the sides, coming only to the top of the groove in the sides. The drawer bottom is slid under the edge of the back and fixed to the back with a single nail or screw in the center. The drawer back has no groove.

[Steve Stack]

I understand that on drawers with half blinds, but I' just starting to try to learn to cut full dovetails and so am practicing on small boxes. Specifically I'm trying to make some recipe boxes for my daughters and wife with angled side boards and want to conceal the bottom joint. The way this is going it'll be a while before I tackle half blinds but thanks for the suggestion, Steve

[Jim Koepke]

I'm thinking either Veritas plough plane or router plane, but only one at this time. Do I need these? Which one first? Is there a better choice? Thanks in advance because after lurking here a while I figure you guys will know. Regards, Steve

Howdy Steve and welcome to the Cave.

I use my plough more than my router, but I am sure there are others that are just the opposite.

With a plow, the stopped ends have to be cut out with a chisel before ploughing out the area in between.

A router would be able to get around this, but is not really ideal for cutting slots to depth.

Another way to get around stopped grooves on drawer bottoms is to lay out your groove so it does not fall on a tail of the dovetail joint. That way the drawer front will cover it.

jim

[Pam Niedermayer]

For small boxes you don't necessarily want a full sized plow plane, perhaps that small LV plow (http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=57678&cat=1,41182), which is about the same size as my Record 043 and 044. They can also be used for somewhat larger boxes, such as drawers.

Pam

[Will Brauneis]

I use little half depth dove tails on boxes i make with through dove tails. Its a little hard to explain but basicaly you cut the groves and then lay out your dove tails so a tail has the grove running through it and then you remove the material on either side of the grove until it is level with the bottom of the grove and then cut the depth of your tail acordingly. It will look like little half width tails on the bottom. Roy underhill does a better job of explaining it if you can find the popular woodworking issue on his tool chest issue #176 or his video on his website. I would probably get the plow plane first it is more useful in my opinion. But you can get an old Stanley router plane on ebay for about 20ish$ too so you could have both!

Hope that helps
Will

[David Myers]

This link is from Derek Cohen's site. He uses a stopped groove in a dovetailed box as a test for the LV small router plane.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Small%20Router%20Plane.html

[Steve Stack]

Thanks All, so the concensus is that a plough plane should come before a router plane? Jim, when you say "a router plane would be able to get around this" referring to clearing out the stopped ends of the groove before ploughing the middle, are you saying the router plane would be able to cut the groove right up into the stops at each end? Also, are you chiseling out just enough area to have "empty" space to start the plough plane ? Pam, yes that's the plane I was considering and Will, I remember the episode you are referring to and think I may have taped it. It never occurred to me to try that, great tip. Again, thanks to all, Steve

[Robert Rozaieski]

Honestly, I think a stopped groove is more trouble than half blind dovetails, but that's just me. In the case of a box like you are talking about, you could also use small slips if you don't want to make a stopped groove. Just plow a through groove in a long strip, cut it to length to fit the inside dimensions of the box, miter the corners, and glue to the inside edge of the box. Then you can insert the bottom of the box into the slips instead of cutting the groove in the box sides. Just another option ;).

[Steve Stack]

David, thanks for the link to Derek's site, I have looked at a lot of his tutorials but must have missed that one, guess I wasn't seeking info on the small router plane. After thinking all yesterday, now I'm leaning more toward buying the Veritas large router plane and making a shop built dedicated drawer groove plane similar to the one Cosman sells. Don't know if our recent flooding was an omen, but the water sure looks like it can get deep around here. Thanks again, Steve

[Pam Niedermayer]

Honestly, I think a stopped groove is more trouble than half blind dovetails, but that's just me. In the case of a box like you are talking about, you could also use small slips if you don't want to make a stopped groove. Just plow a through groove in a long strip, cut it to length to fit the inside dimensions of the box, miter the corners, and glue to the inside edge of the box. Then you can insert the bottom of the box into the slips instead of cutting the groove in the box sides. Just another option ;).

It's not really fair to start this discussion without copious graphics, whether hand or photo. Now I could point you all to a great discussion of such, complete with graphics, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I can't post links. So I'd suggest that you all visit a central wood place and search on "drawer slips." Damn, makes me feel like Voltaire, having to write satire when all I want is to say something. Anybody here ready to grow up?

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks All, so the concensus is that a plough plane should come before a router plane? Jim, when you say "a router plane would be able to get around this" referring to clearing out the stopped ends of the groove before ploughing the middle, are you saying the router plane would be able to cut the groove right up into the stops at each end? Also, are you chiseling out just enough area to have "empty" space to start the plough plane ? Pam, yes that's the plane I was considering and Will, I remember the episode you are referring to and think I may have taped it. It never occurred to me to try that, great tip. Again, thanks to all, Steve

The blade on a router plane reaches down below the sole of the plane. One would have to keep adjusting the blade to cut deeper. As long as the base can be supported, the blade can work right up to a stop. Not having a base at the blade introduces other challenges.

For a drawer bottom, only one end needs to be a stopped groove. There is a bit of sole or shoe in front of the blade on a plough plane. There needs to be a place for it to go at the stopped end of the groove.

jim

[David Keller NC]

David, thanks for the link to Derek's site, I have looked at a lot of his tutorials but must have missed that one, guess I wasn't seeking info on the small router plane. After thinking all yesterday, now I'm leaning more toward buying the Veritas large router plane and making a shop built dedicated drawer groove plane similar to the one Cosman sells. Don't know if our recent flooding was an omen, but the water sure looks like it can get deep around here. Thanks again, Steve

Steve - There's another way around this problem than plowing stopped grooves or using full half-blinds at the corners. Specifically, you cut one of the tails at each corner only half as deep and chisel out the back side, and this half-height dt covers the groove. See Roy Underhill's toolbox episodes of the Woodwright's shop - they're available to watch for free from the PBS website.

[Russell Sansom]

I might add that while a router works, it is somewhat tedious. If you're doing a bunch of drawers or a couple boxes, a plow plane is hard to beat. If your drawers are all in the same size category, it's a pretty simple matter to build a dedicated plane for just that purpose

[Adam Cherubini]

I understand that on drawers with half blinds, but I' just starting to try to learn to cut full dovetails ...The way this is going it'll be a while before I tackle half blinds but thanks for the suggestion, Steve

Steve,

Respectfully, I think you are doing yourself no favors with your approach. Read again what Bob wrote and think about it for a minute. If you want to learn to use hand tools, I think its a disadvantage to copy stuff made with machinery. People made small boxes long ago by hand. But as far as I can tell, they NEVER used stopped grooves. A box like you are making would have been nailed together or at least had a nailed up base.

For Bob- There's been some chatter about fitting drawer bottoms. I've been looking at a fair number of American and English drawer bottoms and I'm just seeing what I'm reading about. I don't think I've yet seen an 18th c piece with grooved sides. They seem to have nailed their bottoms on. Some English pieces, even early 19th c pieces have rabbetted sides (even when the sides are very thin). It's possible there are no nails there (just front and back maybe?). The bottoms run parallel to the sides and wear strips (that come flush with the sides when rabbeted) are glued in place (obsuring nail heads if and when present). The nails typically ARE present on American pieces.

Grooved drawer sides (I'm talking about the grooves that hold the bottoms in) may be a 19th c design. Lest anyone think this was an improvement over inferior nailed up bottoms, there are a host of problems associated with this design. Thicker drawer sides are generally required, which increases th3 weight and cost of a piece. I once calcluated that a chest of 3 drawers with full dust boards had way more secondary material than primary. Second, the bearing area of the drawer side (without a slip applied) is an issue. Applying a slip isn't so easy since folks often ran their bottoms side to side. I think that's where Joyce got his added grooved slip piece in the 19th c.

Anyway, back to Steve, I think there's a huge advantage in staying in the proverbial box! (pun intended). Nail on the bottom of your recipe box just as our ancestors did before belt driven saws and routers ruined their craft (and lives).

Adam

[Bryce Adams]

A box like you are making would have been nailed together or at least had a nailed up base.

For Bob- There's been some chatter about fitting drawer bottoms. I've been looking at a fair number of American and English drawer bottoms and I'm just seeing what I'm reading about. I don't think I've yet seen an 18th c piece with grooved sides. They seem to have nailed their bottoms on.

Adam

Adam,

How does a a drawer bottom nailed into a rabbet allow for wood movement? I understand that drawer bottoms slid into grooved sides (or slips) permit the bottom to expand without tearing apart the drawer.

Can wood movement be ignored in smaller boxes?

Bryce

[Don Dorn]

Honestly, I think a stopped groove is more trouble than half blind dovetails, but that's just me. In the case of a box like you are talking about, you could also use small slips if you don't want to make a stopped groove. Just plow a through groove in a long strip, cut it to length to fit the inside dimensions of the box, miter the corners, and glue to the inside edge of the box. Then you can insert the bottom of the box into the slips instead of cutting the groove in the box sides. Just another option ;).

I'm apparantly a little slow as I had to look at your post for awhile to visualize what you are talking about. I think I've got it now and am going to try it, just to see how it works. A friend of mine told me just to run them through and then plug them with end grain since that's what's missing, but I think your option would certainly work - and one long plough would probably add to the consistency.

[Steve Dallas]

Adam,

How does a a drawer bottom nailed into a rabbet allow for wood movement? I understand that drawer bottoms slid into grooved sides (or slips) permit the bottom to expand without tearing apart the drawer.

Can wood movement be ignored in smaller boxes?

Bryce

The small brads used will flex allowing the wood to move. And you don't drive brads every 1/4". Of course, no glue is used. Get a brad pusher and use 1" brads.

[Robert Rozaieski]

For Bob- There's been some chatter about fitting drawer bottoms. I've been looking at a fair number of American and English drawer bottoms and I'm just seeing what I'm reading about. I don't think I've yet seen an 18th c piece with grooved sides. They seem to have nailed their bottoms on. Some English pieces, even early 19th c pieces have rabbetted sides (even when the sides are very thin). It's possible there are no nails there (just front and back maybe?). The bottoms run parallel to the sides and wear strips (that come flush with the sides when rabbeted) are glued in place (obsuring nail heads if and when present). The nails typically ARE present on American pieces.

Grooved drawer sides (I'm talking about the grooves that hold the bottoms in) may be a 19th c design. Lest anyone think this was an improvement over inferior nailed up bottoms, there are a host of problems associated with this design. Thicker drawer sides are generally required, which increases th3 weight and cost of a piece. I once calcluated that a chest of 3 drawers with full dust boards had way more secondary material than primary. Second, the bearing area of the drawer side (without a slip applied) is an issue. Applying a slip isn't so easy since folks often ran their bottoms side to side. I think that's where Joyce got his added grooved slip piece in the 19th c.

So are you saying the bottom was nailed directly to the sides (no rabbet in the sides) and the drawer bottom was visible from the side of the drawer box? I've seen this on 17th and earlier 18th century pieces but I have to say I have not noticed this a lot in later 18th century pieces I've looked at. But then again, I wasn't looking for this feature either, nor would I have been able to see it even if I was looking for it (most places won't let me pull the drawers out and flip them over...at least not more than once :D). In most pieces I've seen where you could look at the drawers, the drawer bottom was not visible from the sides of the drawer box, so the side had to have been grooved or rabbeted, or a slip used. Since the slips I'm thinking of are usually visible on the inside of the drawer, I assumed most drawers I've had the opportunity to see (admittedly few) were either grooved or rabbeted.

Is this something more attributable to Philadelphia area pieces you've seen or have you noted it on pieces outside of the region as well? As sorry as it seems, I have not seen a lot of Philly pieces in person, even though I have lived just outside of Philly for almost 10 years (still haven't been to the art museum :o). Most of what I've seen has been at Winterthur, Williamsburg, Boston and in books (which typically don't have a lot of detail of drawer bottoms).

This brings up another thought though. I would think building a drawer this way would be more time consuming and require more post-assembly fitting than grooving or rabbeting the sides and not gluing anything to the bottom. If grooving/rabbeting the sides or using slips nailed or glued to the inside of the drawer box, the drawer side can be sized to the opening before assembly of the drawer box. However, if the bottom will be nailed to the bottom of the sides, then the sides need to be reduced in height by the thickness of the drawer bottom and the height of the glued on "runners" prior to building the drawer. Then once the drawer box were assembled, the bottom nailed on and the runners glued on, more time would need to be spent fitting the entire drawer box to the height of the drawer opening. Seems like more time and trouble for a less elegant solution to attaching the drawer bottom. Could it be that slips became more favorable in England because they were a faster, easier and more elegant solution?

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread.

[Sean Hughto]

My expereince is that stopped grooves are not worth the trouble. They are finicky to make, and the 1/4 inch of end grain in that groove is VERY delicate. Either plug the groove with a small bit of wood after the drawer is glued up or lay out the dts to allow the groove to be hidden behind a tail (i.e., half blind).

[Steve Stack]

Gee, this is getting interesting! One of the things I enjoyed while lurking here is the multitude of of different points of view not only in the process but the product as well. I simply do woodworking to escape the drudgery of every day work and to occasionally make something worthwhile for my family like here, a simple box designed differently from what I've seen commercially available. So now first, thanks Jim for the clarification on the differences in which the different planes work, I can understand that now. Second, thanks Adam for giving me a new perspective to envision regarding my approach to working with hand tools and the design and construction of my projects. Seriously, thanks to all here for helping to enlighten me with your advice and suggestions, Steve

[Adam Cherubini]

So are you saying the bottom was nailed directly to the sides (no rabbet in the sides) and the drawer bottom was visible from the side of the drawer box? [/QUOTE]

Yes. Drawer side, bottom and slip are all visible from the side. Tho they are often all the same materiual and they blend in after 200 years.




I've seen this on 17th and earlier 18th century pieces but I have to say I have not noticed this a lot in later 18th century pieces I've looked at.

Grooved sides, both for runners and bottoms were more typical in the 17th c. That tells me the nailed up bottoms had something to do with wear.

Remember that for a Georgian case with flush fit drawers, worn drawer runners telegraphed to the drawer dividers and showed from the front.

[QUOTE=Robert Rozaieski;1438160]
Is this something more attributable to Philadelphia area pieces you've seen or have you noted it on pieces outside of the region as well?


It seems to be a Philly London, Southern thing with Rhode Island thrown in. Boston may be different, but I've not seen enough of it to be sure. Should ask Allan Breed.



This brings up another thought though. I would think building a drawer this way would be more time consuming and require more post-assembly fitting than grooving or rabbeting the sides and not gluing anything to the bottom.

Agreed. Remember that the issue here may have been contact patch wear. English pieces had 1/4" or 5/16" oak drawer sides. Imagine what that does to pine or mahogany.

Alternatively, they could hold the drawer sides back 1/2" or 3/18" say. Nail up a 1/4" bottom and glue on a 1/4" slip and then plane to fit the opening. Also note that the top of teh drawer sides were typically rounded and held under the drawer front (height wise). Another filler called a kicker, this time attached to the underside of carcase's runner, made up the difference.

For movement, I'm not convinced folks cared. Case work stored textile primarily. So drawers were lined with paper. If the bottom cracked, chances are you wouldn't notice and your stockings would fall into the drawer below.

That said, I've seen quite a few period drawers and I saw NO cracks. The bottoms were all white cedar (which is naturally stable) and quartered (and probably riven).

For you box builders, I recommend either using thin good quality plywood, or if you prefer solid wood, buy 12" wide pine from your local home center. Wide cheap boards typically come from the heartwood, so you basically have quartered stock. I resaw bits of this expressly for drawer and box bottoms. I haven't seen any cracks in any of my drawers so far. What? What's so funny?

Adam

[Steve Dallas]

So are you saying the bottom was nailed directly to the sides (no rabbet in the sides) and the drawer bottom was visible from the side of the drawer box?

Yes. Drawer side, bottom and slip are all visible from the side. Tho they are often all the same materiual and they blend in after 200 years.




I've seen this on 17th and earlier 18th century pieces but I have to say I have not noticed this a lot in later 18th century pieces I've looked at.

Grooved sides, both for runners and bottoms were more typical in the 17th c. That tells me the nailed up bottoms had something to do with wear.

Remember that for a Georgian case with flush fit drawers, worn drawer runners telegraphed to the drawer dividers and showed from the front.



It seems to be a Philly London, Southern thing with Rhode Island thrown in. Boston may be different, but I've not seen enough of it to be sure. Should ask Allan Breed.



Agreed. Remember that the issue here may have been contact patch wear. English pieces had 1/4" or 5/16" oak drawer sides. Imagine what that does to pine or mahogany.

Alternatively, they could hold the drawer sides back 1/2" or 3/18" say. Nail up a 1/4" bottom and glue on a 1/4" slip and then plane to fit the opening. Also note that the top of teh drawer sides were typically rounded and held under the drawer front (height wise). Another filler called a kicker, this time attached to the underside of carcase's runner, made up the difference.

For movement, I'm not convinced folks cared. Case work stored textile primarily. So drawers were lined with paper. If the bottom cracked, chances are you wouldn't notice and your stockings would fall into the drawer below.

That said, I've seen quite a few period drawers and I saw NO cracks. The bottoms were all white cedar (which is naturally stable) and quartered (and probably riven).

For you box builders, I recommend either using thin good quality plywood, or if you prefer solid wood, buy 12" wide pine from your local home center. Wide cheap boards typically come from the heartwood, so you basically have quartered stock. I resaw bits of this expressly for drawer and box bottoms. I haven't seen any cracks in any of my drawers so far. What? What's so funny?

Adam

Be careful, pragmatism and common sense will get you lynched on these hand tool boards.

[David Weaver]

I'm guessing you don't use the big loose knots? :eek::D

[Adam Cherubini]

I'm guessing you don't use the big loose knots? :eek::D

David,

I know you are kidding, but you sorta don't get big loose knots in the stock I'm taking about. You get a section thru the knot (sideways) and it's big and unusable. So you cut around that; don't try to use that section. Also, go for the boards with the tightest ring spacing.

And be prepared to dry the lumber yourself. If the tree bent or twisted such that the grain runs out at one end, cut that off immediately or it will pull the entire board out of flat.

I almost always find good usable EWP stock in the racks at my local home center.

Adam

[Jeff Gorman]

Although not a direct answer to the question, a visit to http://tinyurl.com/37h2u2r might offer an answer.

Jeff
www.amgron.clara.net (http://www.amgron.clara.net)