DC Consultants? (Overwhelmed, need help)

[John Mark Lane]

I'm posting this in some frustration. I've been trying to learn about dust collection. I have the Nagyszalansczy book (both editions). I've read some of Bill Pentz's stuff and have done some archive searches here. But it's all just a little overwhelming.

I have a small basement shop, but I want a good DC system for it. I have some limitations in terms of location etc. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that someone hired out their services as consultants in setting up DC systems. I thought it was Rockler, but I can't find it on their website.

Can anyone point me to a person/company that will work with me, for a reasonable fee, to help me set up a DC system?

Thanks,

Mark

[Nick Lazz]

Oneida will help design your system. I had the same issues as you, it can get a little overwhelming, however it is not as difficult as you may think.

I ultimately decided on the Clearvue and could not be happier. I use 6" S&D for all my runs. I used the formulas to calculate the losses and it works great.

Good luck!

Nick

[Matt Meiser]

Oneida will design a system for you. They used to do it for free. Probably because too many people (like me) had them do a design, choked on the cost of the system they designed, and did something in PVC or less expensive components. Now they'll credit the cost towards a 3HP or bigger cyclone.

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks, guys. It may have been the Oneida site where I saw this. I also noticed last night that Penn State Industries has a DC design service. Anyone know anything about that?

Thanks again,

Mark

[Greg Portland]

Thanks, guys. It may have been the Oneida site where I saw this. I also noticed last night that Penn State Industries has a DC design service. Anyone know anything about that?Oneida will give you a free duct design with any purchase over $500 (i.e. any dust collector and pretty much any full-shop ductwork order).

IMO, you should go back to Bill Pentz's website and do exactly what is described in those pages. Determine the CFM requirements for each of your tools and run a duct (likely 6" for most tools) + blast gate to each location. In my shop, I only created 3 drops and put all the tools on mobile bases with mating collars.

Once you've determined the max CFM (based on your longest run and equipment) go out and get a dust collector. You can get something cheap and keep upgrading or you can bite the bullet and get an Oneida. Normally I would recommend Clearvue but they are out of business. Alternatively, you can modify existing cyclones or go the DIY route (cheaper but more time and likely not as nice an end product).

[John Mark Lane]

Oneida will give you a free duct design with any purchase over $500 (i.e. any dust collector and pretty much any full-shop ductwork order).

IMO, you should go back to Bill Pentz's website and do exactly what is described in those pages. Determine the CFM requirements for each of your tools and run a duct (likely 6" for most tools) + blast gate to each location. In my shop, I only created 3 drops and put all the tools on mobile bases with mating collars.

Once you've determined the max CFM (based on your longest run and equipment) go out and get a dust collector. You can get something cheap and keep upgrading or you can bite the bullet and get an Oneida. Normally I would recommend Clearvue but they are out of business. Alternatively, you can modify existing cyclones or go the DIY route (cheaper but more time and likely not as nice an end product).


Greg, thanks for the suggestions. I do intend to spend more time on Bill Pentz's site, doing pretty much exactly that. But I have a few quirks for the system I need, and could use some suggestions on how best to overcome them. The assistance of an expert is probably worth a few bucks to figure things out.

Thanks,

Mark

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Have you checked this month's Wood Magazine? There is a pretty good article on how to size and spec a dust collection system....written in "english." The article is easy enough to understand for a beginner and accurate enough to be of value for some one with some advanced knowledge. The article should help you to size your system (horsepower and Static Pressure) and give you solid info on ductwork.

One decision that you will need to make is what level of collection do you want. As Bill Pentz points out, to really capture most of the sub-micron size particles (they do the most damage to our lungs) you will need a higher cfm than either Oneida, Grizzly or PSI will generally recommend. You will also need 6" ports to accommodate that increased cfm. If all of your machines have 4" ports and you do not wish to upgrade now or in the future, then you will be OK with the recommendations of the above vendors. If you have or will have 6" ports, then tell the vendors so that they will size your equipment appropriately. I went through all this a while back and decided on a ClearVue system, with a Grizzly 3HP running a close second (for price vs. performance).

You may also want to look at a very good article from American Woodworker magazine from 2006. That was probably the best cyclone test article that I've seen. You can actually link to the entire article from the Oneida website. The best performers were Grizzly and Oneida with the Grizzly having a better price point. PSI did not fare well. Prices have changed since 2006, but not the quality.

Hope this is of some value.

[John Mark Lane]

Paul, thanks. I will see if I can track down those articles.

Here's kind of an off the wall (no fun intended) question. If I buy a blower, and build or buy a cyclone or other chip collector (looks pretty simple to me), and hook up the blower south of the cyclone...then run the exhaust hose to the outside of my house... generally speaking, does that final run need to be straight? Short? Or can it wind around a bit and be somewhat long? In my case, specifically, it would have to go up (with a 90) about three feet, then over (with a 90), crossing a small room about ten feet, then down slightly (maybe a 45) and out a basement window. The only restrictions would be the turns and the length of the hose. Without trying to get too scientific, does this strike you (anyone) as a workable approach? (Assume I won't have any issues with the outside exhuast...)

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Your approach sounds workable, but not ideal. If you look at the commercial cyclones, they all immediately elbow off the blower on the exhaust side. The ClearVue has a 6" inlet and the exhaust, I believe is about 7"x6". The point being is that you will need to accommodate your increased restrictions due to the numerous elbows. Ideally, you should have several feet of straight ducts before and after elbows. Maybe some of the experts here can give you some technical advice beyond my general thought that if you have a 6" input that your situation will require an 8" or better output.

If you are willing to make a cyclone, then I would highly .recommend going back to the Bill Pentz site. I believe that his son is making cyclones or cutting them out and they are for sale. You can also buy the other parts through his son or the listed vendors (for Leeson Motors and Sheldon Engineering for blowers). As you probably have already seen, Bill has full plans and instructions on how to make a cyclone.

Other guys will chime in, I'm sure, but the Bill Pentz designed cyclone is the best available. It was his design that Grizzly and Oneida copied and then modified downward for commercial reasons. So many of us bought the ClearVue knowing that it was designed by Bill Pentz.

There are also enough folks here that can get you through the wiring and other "stuff" and the ClearVue website is still up and has literally hundreds of install photos.

[John Mark Lane]

What happened to ClearVue?

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Ed Morgano, the owner and founder of ClearVue retired May 1 of this year. He was a retired machinist/woodworker who started the firm about six years ago. He had expected his son Matt to take over, but apparently Matt had other plans. The business is now up for sale. That's why I mentioned sourcing through Bill Pentz's website.

[Alan Schaffter]

If I buy a blower, and build or buy a cyclone or other chip collector (looks pretty simple to me), and hook up the blower south of the cyclone...then run the exhaust hose to the outside of my house... generally speaking, does that final run need to be straight? Short? Or can it wind around a bit and be somewhat long?

All fittings (couplings, wyes, elbows, etc.), inches of duct work, cyclones, other separators, filters, etc, affect system performance. It matters little if it they are on the intake or exhaust side of the the blower, they add static press resistance and reduce CFM. You can compute how much by looking at Bill Pentz's site or the Wood Magazine article.

[Greg Portland]

If you describe your exact problem some of us may be able to help. What tools, where are they located, problems you are having, etc...

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks, Greg. I will try to draw up my shop space and indicate the issues, and post an image with explanation. I sure would be grateful for any help. I'm totally a babe in the woods on dust collection.

Example -- I can't even figure out what will connect to what. I was at the Borg the other night and looked at some 4 inch S&D PVC. I even bought a T fitting for that pipe, to use as a basis for measuring. I then went online to try to find a blast gate that will connect to the stuff. I can't find one single blast gate where the website shows the actual ID/OD of the connection. How the hell is one even supposed to know what parts to order (even assuming one could figure out the overall configuration)?

[Alan Schaffter]

Thanks, Greg. I will try to draw up my shop space and indicate the issues, and post an image with explanation. I sure would be grateful for any help. I'm totally a babe in the woods on dust collection.

Example -- I can't even figure out what will connect to what. I was at the Borg the other night and looked at some 4 inch S&D PVC. I even bought a T fitting for that pipe, to use as a basis for measuring. I then went online to try to find a blast gate that will connect to the stuff. I can't find one single blast gate where the website shows the actual ID/OD of the connection. How the hell is one even supposed to know what parts to order (even assuming one could figure out the overall configuration)?

Don't fret- I don't think there is a commercial blast gate made that fits PVC S&D! You are better off making your own*. Most blast gates don't fit machine ports either, and most plastic ones don't fit metal duct. You need to be creative!

Also, I hope you weren't thinking of using "T's" anywhere! That is a REAL BIGl NO NO from a static pressure resistance stand point. You should use "wyes" for branches. And since you are contemplating a fixed, piped, system, forget about using 4"- you need 6" S&D.

* There is a nice article how to do that in the latest issue of American Woodworker. (an unabashed self-promotion :D )

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1759/medium/Blast_Gate_Article1.jpg

[John Mark Lane]

Alan, I know this is gonna sound crazy to you guys who know this stuff...but here goes....

I am not going to put 6 inch pipe in this shop. The shop is so small, it will frankly eat up useful space and overwhelm the shop. It's going to be 4 inch for the main lines, and 4 or 2 1/2 inch to the machines.

The machines: a Bosch 4100 table saw, a Makita LSO714 slidling compound miter saw (or possibly a Metabo 8 1/2 inch SCMS), a Rikon 10-325 bandsaw, a Dewalt DW735 planer (on a rolling stand that will roll under the main bench when not in use), a 6 inch jointer, probably the Grizzly G0452, a benchtop sander, probably the Jet JSD-96 (6*48/9), a Delta 14 inch drill press, plus a floor sweep and a couple of flex hoses to be connected to things like a router table setup and hand-held tools like pad sanders. Oh, and probably a downdraft sanding station.

A fair amount of lines, but it will be rare if ever that more than once machine would run at once.

The shop is only 10 by 16, in my basement. It has a window to the outside (which I will rig with a hinged fan to blow out dust in decent weather). And I intend to hang a good quality dust collector from the ceiling.

I punched a hole in one of the 10 foot walls, about 5 feet up, in the center. There is a space on the other side of that wall (in a utility area) where I intend to put a DC with a cyclone. I may be able to vent to the outside easily. Or I'll add a filter etc.

I will have a dedicated 110 line. I could, with effort, conceivably have a dedicated 220 line.

My plan is to come thru the wall from the DC, and have a "T", with 4 inch S&D going in each direction. I'll have a blast gate on each side of the T, so I can cut off an entire direction. From the "left branch" of the T, I'll go over a few feet, then up (a 45), a 90 around a corner, and over a door top, then over maybe another 6 feet, and have two branches going down (from Y's). One will serve the table saw, the other probably a router table. Then a cap.

Going right from the T, I will first take at least one, maybe two, branches straight down (with Y's), to the jointer and possibly the sander, then make a 90 at the wall then straight over and a series of probably 4 branches, from Y's, going down to the SCMS, a sanding/work station, the planer, and maybe one random line. Then a 90 at the far wall, and two Y's, one to the drill press, one to the bandsaw. Then a cap.

About half the branches will be 4 inch flex pipe, the others 2 1/2 inch. All with blast gates, of course.

I realize this is not a great design. But it's what I have to live with, given my constraints. I totally intend to do this, subject only to being told that my house will explode. :)

So the questions, for me, really relate mostly to what kind of pipe (not what size) to use, what kind of connectors, blast gates, etc., and most importantly, what DC setup to use. I recognize that it's going to take a monster to pull all that thru that absurd pipe layout. A monster I will buy. :)

Recognize, this is not a pro shop. This is a small basement shop, with adequate natural ventilation much of the time, with an air filter, that will be used sparingly and for small projects. I'll make a birdhouse with the kids one weekend, maybe an end table the next. My 8 year old daughter (a piano protege :) ) wants us to build a custom piano bench for her. Little things. One tool at a time. I could actually get by with no DC, with just a shop vac and an air filter and a fan and some masks. But I want a DC to increase the removal of dust and shavings.

I've been doing this for a long, long time. I ran a professional cabinet shop in the early 80's. I made furniture for the Rich and Famous. I was a boat carpenter. I ran my own construction company for years and built spec houses. I never had a DC of any sort and always considered such things fru fru. I've become older and wiser. But I'm still mostly an old-fashioned guy with old fashioned ideas.

Now...with that overblown rant...can you help me?

Mark

[David Giles]

Use a 2-3Hp blower, 220V single phase.
Install a cyclone.
Use all 6" ducting including installing larger ports on each machine.
Make your own slide gates.
Vent outside, if at all possible, to avoid the final filtration bag or canister.
Installing the cyclone downstream of the blower keeps the bags under positive pressure. They are much easier to change.

Saving you 40 hours of reading dust collection websites, at $25/hr, means you owe me $1000. But I'll take $500 because I'm a nice guy.

[Alan Schaffter]

Return rant: It sounds like you have your mind made up right or wrong (mostly wrong) about what you plan on doing, so I wonder why you are asking for advice when you won't take it.


I am not going to put 6 inch pipe in this shop. The shop is so small, it will frankly eat up useful space and overwhelm the shop. It's going to be 4 inch for the main lines, and 4 or 2 1/2 inch to the machines.

I guess you are only concerned about picking up some and not all of the chips, but little of the dangerous, fine (.5 - 10 micron) dust. If you spent 30 years in the cabinet industry, you probably already have had too much exposure to fine dust!

You plan on having machines that will create significant amounts fine dust! To collect it you need CFM at the machine, which means decent sized ports, pipes, and efficient duct runs. Unlike a shopvac that works on static pressure and can handle small ducting, a DC works on moving volumes of air and so needs large duct. While 4" will work with short DC duct runs, 2.5" WILL NOT. 6" is better, even in a small shop. A comparison of the cross-sections of each size pipe will give you an idea of their CFM capacity:

2.5" diam.= 4.9 sq. in.
4" diam. = 12.5 sq. in.
6" diam. = 28.3 sq. in.

6" fit OK in my last 12' x 12' shop.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/Shop_21.JPG


It has a window to the outside (which I will rig with a hinged fan to blow out dust in decent weather).

An excellent idea. Better than an air cleaner.


I intend to put a DC with a cyclone. I may be able to vent to the outside easily. Or I'll add a filter etc.

With 2.5" pipe, T's, lots of bend, lots of flex, etc. you are totally wasting money on a cyclone!


I will have a dedicated 110 line. I could, with effort, conceivably have a dedicated 220 line. . . . . My plan have a "T", 4 inch S&D, over a few feet, then up (a 45), a 90 around a corner, and over a door top, then over maybe another 6 feet, and have two branches going down (from Y's) . . . About half the branches will be 4 inch flex pipe

You better plan on a 220V line from the outset because you'll need a decent 2 - 3 hp DC to overcome that amount of static pressure resistance.


. . . . a blast gate either side of the T, so I can cut off an entire direction.

It is totally unnecessary to block off unused branches of your DC ducting if you have blast gates at your machines like you are planning.


I realize this is not a great design. But it's what I have to live with, given my constraints.

I see no constraints whatsoever, to anything I have recommended?

[Dave MacArthur]

I was going to post the exact same thing as Alan.
--Don't T, single main run with Y's off it to machines.
-- Group your machines on either side of a 6" feed, Y into them with blastgates right there behind them.
-- Use 6", you CAN fit it in, you know you can, I already know your ceiling height including your joists and the few things that hang down ;) ! Too late to rescind all that previous thread info, unless you're > 7'6", I know you can fit 6" pipe up there.

-- Blast gates at the machines.
-- 6" lines to the machines reduced to fit their opening right AT the opening.

Seriously, I've read this stuff for LITERALLY 100 hours, done spreadsheets, bought magazines, looked at CFM charts and Static pressure charts for machines and pipe runs. So have most of the folks who read Dust Collection threads... it's a bit of an addiction once you start reading... Every guy who ever bought a cyclone started off asking why he couldn't use his shop vac and 2.5" lines, maaaayyybe 4" max. The answer always comes back the same:

if you're buying DC to keep the shop cleanish from shavings and sawdust, get yourself a good broom and dust-pan, borrow the wife's vacuum every other week.

If you're buying DC to mitigate health issues from super fine dust, keep your 8 y.o.'s lungs healthy and non-allergic, AND keep shop clean, then you'll need to comply with the same well-tested airflow engineering numbers that make a jet fly, keep CFM high enough to collect those fines, size the piping right to deliver that CFM while keeping flow velocity above 3500-4000 to keep shavings suspended in the stream, and have enough static pressure to overcome all the pipe and fittings it takes to deliver that CFM and FPS to the machines making the dust.

The GOOD news is that all this stuff has been done a million times, the answers to all your questions are well known and tested, it really doesn't cost but 5% more to do it right once you're talking about buying a 2-3HP cyclone, and there's lots of folks here that like to talk about DC to help out.

But if you say you're going to put in a T and use 2.5" again, I'm sorry but you're a heretic and no one in the Church of Dust Collection will be willing to worship with you.
;)

[John Mark Lane]

Guys -- thanks for these very thoughtful and informative posts. Seriously, I really appreciate the input here. I'm not as stubborn as I probably sound, and I am listening. I need to study this more. I'm reading your posts over and over.