Flattening Shapton Stones

[Rick Markham]

What are some effective ways to flatten and maintain a flat surface on my Shapton glass stones. I would really like to avoid buying the $300 Shapton Stone Flattener they sell, are there alternatives that y'all use successfully? Thanks again!

[David Weaver]

DMT or Atoma diamond hone.

If your stones start around 1000 grit and go finer, a 325 DMT or a 400 grit atoma is a good choice.

I like the atoma the best, but it is probably a little more expensive if you shop around for the DMT (should be available in 8x3 duosharp for about $60 on ebay).

Just make sure it's not finer than 400 grit.

If you dress stones often, as you should do, that is plenty fine, even for the 400 grit. Best if you keep those hones for that only.

Atomas can be gotten on ebay sometimes from Alex Gilmore and they can be gotten from japan from a guy who runs a store called toolsfromjapan dot com (he's an upstanding fellow). They are about $100 or a couple of bucks more with a very nice rubber base.

The shapton diamond plate is crazy money. I won't state how much I've spent on stones, it's a significant multiple of the price of a shapton diamond plate, but I still wouldn't think of spending that kind of money when the DMT and the atoma work as well as they do - two squirts of water and a couple of seconds per stone.

[Matt Benton]

I would imagine a granite plate and sandpaper would flatten most any stone....

[Don Dorn]

My sharpening station has a melamine top (got the idea from Frank Klasuz's video) and use 220 screen and a foot square marble tile to flatten stones. So far, so good.

[John Coloccia]

I use a DMT plate. I honestly don't understand the Shapton lapping plate. I'm sure it works phenomenally well, but the DMT works perfectly well too at 1/6 the price.

[Rick Markham]

That was my suspicion, about the lapping plate. Thanks for the info, I will be investing in a DMT or Atoma stone, 400 grit it is! Thanks guys... I'd much rather spend that money elsewhere besides on a lapping plate. :D

[Thomas Halvorsen]

I use a DMT DuoSharp coarse/fine. This flattens both my coarse and finer grit shapton stones.

[Christian Castillo]

DMT suggests using the DMT continuous surface XXC for flattening water stones. I have one, the benefit is that it does not succumb to stiction when flattening water stones (unlike the DMT continuous surface C) due to the larger spaces in between each diamond tooth, and will wear out far slower due to the size of the diamonds and the deep valleys in between them. From what I've read on knife message boards, the Atoma 400 has it's diamonds arranged in a pattern which allow it to have spaces to clear the slurry and not stick to your stone, users also say that it is flatter and a much nicer performer than DMT's offerings. The Atoma 400 would be your best choice, a DMT XXC and C are the combo that are most recommended by cooking knife enthusiasts. The DMT XXC can level a badly worn stone in less than 1 minute, the Coarse refines the surface (preferable to use it on stones 1000 grit and finer as those will take advantage of a finer surface) to take out the XXC deep scratches.

You would also have the fastest non-machine steel eater, XXC, capable of re profiling bevels, flattening badly pitted or uneven chisel and plane backs ridiculously fast, and taking chips out in no time flat (it is so aggressive, it sounds like you are dragging a shovel along the sidewalk when you use it) and then using the Coarse stone to remove the XXC scratch pattern, which is very deep. A XXC + C combo costs as much as an Atoma 400 + adjustable stone holding base ( a really good one by the way) so you can get either the versatile DMT combo, or a better performing, but more limited, Solo Atoma 400. By the way, if you decide to get the Atoma 400, it is a thin steel plate glued onto an aluminum plate. Seal off where the steel and aluminum meet with marine epoxy as users have reported that with time, water gets in between the steel and aluminum, rusts the steel, and the steel layer beings to warp, unstick from the aluminum and looses its flatness. This results in a premature death, sealing it off, it will last for years.

The cheapest place to get the Atoma 400 is toolsfromjapan dot com if you go that route, though you will have to wait 2 weeks to get it from Japan. I just contacted Alex Gilmore about two weeks ago if he had any more Atoma plates left, sadly, he does not, probably not until later this summer. If you have the money, go with Atoma. Either way you will not lose.

[Steve knight]

sandpaper does not work well with shapton stones. it wears way too fast to be cost effective. I have used a dmt duo for years with no problems. I bought the black/blue. I but the monster sized one as it is easier to flatten if the diamond stone is larger then the water stone. before that I used the lapping plate. but I think it is time to sell it if I can find it.

[Matthew Dworman]

I HIGHLY recommend the shapton diamond lapping plate. It is big bucks, but its worth it in my opinion - the thing is DEAD flat - unlike the DMT stones that I have owned. It is designed for one thing only - flattening waterstones, and it does this very well and very quickly. 3-4 seconds of rubbing, and your stone is completely flat - the grooves in the plate allow for the slurry to build up without interfering.
If you can afford it, get it. The only time you will be upset is when you pay for it, but you will be happy with your purchase every time you use it.

[Paul Davis]

I bought an Atoma 400 from Stu at toolsfromjapan.com last month for $85 including shipping, and it came in 10 days or less. I use it only to flatten Shaptons, 1000 to 12000, and it works great. I like being able to leave the stones in place and rub the diamond plate upside down on them, as the Shapton lapping plate is used. Just a few swirls and they're flat.

Stu is a nice and helpful fellow. I wish I had bought the Shaptons from him in the same order--his prices are very good.
Paul

[george wilson]

I have used the side of a large,old time sandstone grinding wheel. It even quickly flattened a black Arkansas stone. Used with water on the sandstone.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

Ditto on the Atoma 400. I use it to flatten my Shaptons Glass & Pros, the Bester, & Sigma Power that Stu sells. A double ditto on buying from Stu. He is very knowledgeable, helpful, and great to deal with.

[Mike Zilis]

I just switched to Shapton stones from Norton waterstones a couple of weeks ago. I bought a coarse (Blue) DMT plate for flattening them. It works well, although its obvious that the DMT plate is not 100% flat. I'd like to get the Shapton flattener eventually, although the Atoma 400 is starting to sound pretty good.

-Mike

[Rick Markham]

Good information guys, I appreciate it all.

Mathew, in a perfect world I would love to buy the shapton lapping plate, I guess I am just really having trouble justifying the expense of it. Is it really 3x better than the Atoma, since it is 3x the price? I like to buy things that will last a lifetime, but lets face it, sharpening stones aren't one of those items that qualifies.

I guess one way I need to look at it, is since stones don't last forever, and neither will the atoma, DMT plates, Shapton lapping plate, what's the life expectancy of these things, used only for flattening stones? What happens when the useful life is up on the shapton stones? If I decided later I wanted different stones, is the lapping plate good for all other whet stones? or just the Shaptons. I know all diamond stones etc. all wear out eventually. Is the lapping plate going to outlast the other options by 3x? Or is it going to wear in a similar time frame?

Thanks, Y'all for bearing with me!

George, where could I find an old grinding stone? It's an attractive option for many reasons, I just don't have a clue where to start looking LOL

[David Weaver]

Craigslist for the old sandstones. they show up here all the time, but they do take up some real estate in your shop, and sometimes people are pretty proud of them when they think of a price.

If and when you order the atoma, spend the extra couple of bucks and get the rubber base. it's nice to have (it's very good quality), and it makes it easier to use the thing as a stone if you choose to do that some, too.

[george wilson]

I got several off of a local "Trading Post" newspaper years ago. People were buying them to bury in the ends of their driveways!! An old warehouse in Norfolk,Va. dating from the civil war had been burned down. The basement was full of real old hardware from that period. Hand forges nuts and bolts,etc.. Dozens of those wheels.

You will see old farm type grinding wheels sitting usually outside of antique shops.

Here's an idea: Look up stone cutting places in your area. You can probably get an imperfect stone free. Monument makers,architectural stone suppliers. Places like that.

[David Weaver]

People use them for decoration around here. I think they probably pay more for them as decoration than we'd pay for use, and in the case that they find them and use them for decoration, they have no interest in selling them via saying they'd sell one to you for several hundred dollars.

There's a small house in Harmony, PA that's got a bunch of them sitting around it outside, front and back. I guess they like them for decoration.

If I had room, I'd ask them if they wanted to sell any of them, but it never looks like anyone is around there, anyway, and I see them from time to time here on CL, often being sold as lawn ornaments.

George - I've seen a couple in antique shops, including one with a treadle, but they are way out of round usually - way way out. Does that make any difference in use given that they're so big around and being used freehand, anyway?

[Neil Zenuk]

I haven't read about anyone using glass covered with plastic laminate and lapping grit yet. The glass is perfectly flat, and the plastic is soft so the grit embeds into it as you move the stone around. I use 180x grit as is breaks down into a smaller size as you use it. A 2oz container which has lasts a very long time is $4.80, laminate $14.50 for 4 (8 1/2" x 14") http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=33017&cat=1,43072, and most of us have a spare piece of glass (if not, also cheap). That's my cheap but highly effective $0.02.

[george wilson]

To flatten your stones,it doesn't matter even if the sandstone is square.You lay the stone on its side,and lap your stone on the side of the sandstone with water. You might could find a block of sandstone at a stone supplier,as I mentioned.

[Ross Canant]

Lots of things will flatten Shaptons or other water stones. I picked up a big old metal lathe faceplate at an auction for $5. It's dead flat of course. Sprinkle on the lapping powder and it works great. It's heavy enough that it doesn't move, and it's about 15" across, so lots of room.

[Rick Markham]

Good to know, thanks Y'all :D I will let ya know what I end up deciding, it's been a busy weekend ;)

[Dave Beauchesne]

For what its worth, I have the Shapton plate and absolutely love the thing.

I don't have experience with the other brands; I have been burned before by spending $$ on something, being disappointed, and ended up spending $$$$ later.

BTW, the $300 + flattener is not the only one they make - at the local woodworking school one of the Japanese resident instructors brought back ( from Japan his last trip ) two Shapton flattening plates that are two sided - the base material looks like an Aluminum Bronze, with a completely different waffle pattern on either side ( from the plate I have ) - @, get this, nearly double the dollars.:eek::eek:

JMHO

Dave Beauchesne

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Dave,

That very expensive Shapton diamond plate was designed for the Professional stones as well as some of the Pro stone predecessors, if I have it right. My timing might be off, I am not 100% sure. Maybe it was about the time of the Hippo stones.

You are right, it is bronze based and is flat. Not 'quite flat', not 'within xyz flat', it is flat.

While it is expensive, at that time it had one solid redeeming feature, that the diamond surface could be replaced on the plate (for the princely sum of about $100) thereby extending the life of the plate. I don't know if the fee was for one or both sides. I do believe that one side was for stones, the other for blades. IIRC, the really open side is the stone side, the hounds-tooth side for blades.

A truly excellent plate, regrettably it was also fully twice the price of anything else out there, and definitely not twice as good as the highest priced competitor, if only because that competitors were also 'flat' and the diamonds were either sintered into the surface or electroplated the same as the Shapton plate. Sintering extends the life of the plate by a goodly amount and reducing that pesky problem of diamond plates losing their diamonds by a heap too. It's only suitable for really fine grit diamonds though, since the rocks are pressed into the plate itself, not just stuck to it.

For what it's worth, the 'competitor' was the Atoma, and the plates you guys are talking about here are the 'Atoma Economy' which were basically an answer to every argument Shapton had. Non ferrous base, very flat, replaceable surface.

And less than 1/4 the price too. ;)

Shapton also has a cast (malleable?) iron lapping plate used with loose grit. Also very well made, yet still quite expensive. The current version is a little larger than the previous 'lapping plate' which was labelled as 'compact' and might still be available in some places carrying old stock. Only suitable for actual waterstones, not the Shapton Glass Stones.

I don't use an Atoma plate though, I use a different plate that is quite flat enough, was designed for flattening stones on one side, shaping blades on the other and is even less expensive than the Atoma Economy plate.

(I do have a replacement #600 grit Atoma sheet sitting on my shelf though that might get called into service at some point. Never mind that 'shelf' is also sagging under the weight of a dozen different #1000 grit waterstones. At least I think it's a dozen, I have not counted recently... :rolleyes: )

I hope that helps, and if someone had two of those plates, I hope one was for someone else because as far as I know, Shapton will still refresh the surface on those plates. Coughing up that kind change, it's worth taking up any slim possibility of making them 'economical'.

[jerry nazard]

Was that a Schtoo....?

[David Weaver]

Is a "schtoo" a noun, but not a proper noun?

Schtoo's getting things named after him! :) proper use would be:

"I just schtooed"

"I haven't let out a good schtoo in a while, see you in ten minutes"

That is definitely the same schtoo i've sent some coin to.

[jerry nazard]

Hi David!

What... did I forget to say Gesundheit?

-Jerry

[Tom Henderson2]

Was that a Schtoo....?

Schtoo's name is Stu. He lives in Japan....

[Stuart Tierney]

It's bad when your chosen moniker is better known than your real name... :rolleyes:

I got 'Schtoo' about 20 years ago, when I was racing RC cars and did quite well with one made by a company called 'Schumacher', hence the spelling.

Used it as a screen name for over 15 years now, but someone stole the name and used it for themselves. They seem to be doing well with it, and they are actually a Stu so good luck to them.


And yep, last time I checked I was in Japan. :D

(I hope that using my name as a noun has only positive connotations. Well, positive enough that I find them acceptable will do, please. ;) )

[Wilbur Pan]

There are many ways of flattening a Shapton or any other waterstone. I think that the key to a flattening method is really how convenient it is to use. Diamond plates are the most convenient method that I've found. I made a video (http://giantcypress.tumblr.com/post/668546073/japanese-tools-are-traditionally-sharpened-with) to show how easy it is to use a diamond plate to flatten a waterstone. It takes 30 seconds, and you don't even have to move the waterstone from where you're using it. You can see the video here (http://giantcypress.tumblr.com/post/668546073/japanese-tools-are-traditionally-sharpened-with).

I've tried both the DMT and the Atoma, and the Atoma is a lot nicer to use. The DMT seems to get clogged up with the waterstone swarf and there's a lot of resistance due to surface tension. The Atoma has small channels in the surface that prevent this from happening.

[David Weaver]

There are a number of sellers selling shapton stones online who also sell the DGLP or whatever the diamond version of the lapping plate is called.

There is commentary in quite a few of them that in order to use the stones, you need the DGLP to flatten them properly. The same places sell DMT stones and other such things, as well as stuff like the norton flattening stone. I think this is borderline wrong, to suggest to someone that they need to spend almost 3 bills to flatten their stones and imply that the job done will be superior. I have seen various videos of people using the shapton lapping plates, including Rob Cosman's, and I spend the same or less time on my stones with the atoma (actually, intentionally less, I only lap them until the wear marks disappear).

It's nice if the shapton DGLP works well, but it's a lot like suggesting that someone needs to chop mortises with a 30k sharpened mortise chisel, meaning if there is something superior about the DGLP vs. an atoma stone, it doesn't actually exist in the process of flattening stones - so what good is it, then?

Any flat diamond hone will do. The atoma is nice because the diamonds are evenly spaced. it costs a third of what the DGLP costs, and there is no command that you "must not use it for anything other than flattening stones".

The only thing I would do differently than what wilbur does is I would buy the rubber base and keep the hone in it - it makes lapping the stones about twice as fast because you can get a much better grip with the stone upside down. I think even at that with the rubber base, it's still a hundred bucks or so.

[David Weaver]

I hope the prior post doesn't make me come off as a crotchety old man - I just see a lot of stores extolling the virtues of the DLRP or the DGLP, whatever the high $$ one is, and in a results oriented world, it doesn't make sense.

Sort of like the glasstones. The glasstones are nice, they work well for everything but HSS, but they are not superior to the professional stones (which cut everything including hss - and yes, I have both), and there is a lot less media in them.

I see now that they make Glasstones that are designed for HSS - this seems goofy to me. Unless someone is getting the 30k stone, which is a near complete waste of money (yes, I've tried it), the pro stones can be found for the same price as one of the glasstones, and they cut everything well enough to be used without getting two different ones.

OK...I am a crotchety old man. :rolleyes:

[John Coloccia]

Just to clarify, the Glass stones have less material but they often last longer than you might think because you can use them right down to the glass. The pro stones often crack before getting that far down. As I understand it, both stones last about the same amount of time. I agree with you 100%, though, that there is a lot of misinformation about the glass stones NEEDING the magic flattening plate. I don't believe in that kind of advertising. People should be informed in their decisions, and many will buy the flatening plate anyway because it IS very nice.

[David Weaver]

Just to clarify, the Glass stones have less material but they often last longer than you might think because you can use them right down to the glass. The pro stones often crack before getting that far down. As I understand it, both stones last about the same amount of time. I agree with you 100%, though, that there is a lot of misinformation about the glass stones NEEDING the magic flattening plate. I don't believe in that kind of advertising. People should be informed in their decisions, and many will buy the flatening plate anyway because it IS very nice.

The glasstone matrix may be a little harder than the pro stone - but it's just a little. That might be what makes the HC GS cut HSS less effectively than a pro stone.

I wouldn't keep a pro stone without gluing it to a substrate, either glass or in my case, a QS kingwood short with tiny rubber bumpers on it. I did that, because I don't like stones to move all over the place at the first sign of stiction, as the loose pros do, and so do the GS. I ended up doing the same thing to my GS - gluing it to something more substantial.

In my opinion, the pro stone is the best finish stone out there for the lazy sharpener (like me). It cuts extremely fast for its grit, it needs no soaking of any kind. It stays flat for a long time, and glued to a substrate, it's pretty easy to use, and it's hard to gouge. The only beef I ever had with it was that you can get stiction freehanding chisels on it, which can be mitigated by side sharpening until the last few strokes....until derek cohen pointed out last week that a tiny bit of dish soap in the water eliminates that, too.

And glued to a substrate, the pro should outlast the glass by a long time. I would imagine that in the case of both, much more wear occurs at the hands of the diamond plate than from edge tools. I sort of forgot that you could crack a pro stone if it wasn't affixed to something, because mine were loose and free only for about a week before I decided to fix what seemed like an invitation for them to become a flying stone.

I just wish if they wanted to make a stone on glass, that they wouldn't have gotten so cheap and would've just put glass on a 15mm pro stone instead.

[george wilson]

Re: The Video:I certainly would not hold the diamond stone sideways to the longer than sideways stone I was trying to flatten. The shorter diamond stone can ride in a hollow. Keep the diamond stone lengthways. It needs to be LONGER than the stone you are flattening. This is also a basic premise when re-scraping precision machine tools's ways to re -flatten them: You use a straight edge LONGER than the ways to check for flatness.

Just showing that you removed the pencil marks means nothing.

[Wilbur Pan]

George,

Thanks for the comment. You'll notice that I do start with the diamond stone lengthwise. And that waterstone was completely flat when I was done, checking with a straightedge that is longer than the waterstone.

[george wilson]

I'm sure I can't teach you anything,Wilbur. I just cannot see any use in doing something wrong. Perhaps we have different conceptions of what flatness is,and other things,like what constitutes a good fitting mortise and tenon.

You held the stone diagonally at first. When about half of the pencil marks were gone,you switched to cross ways. Why? Because you could grind off the pencil marks in the center faster? It's tempting,but shortcuts often need to be avoided. Falling off the end of the stone isn't a good idea. It could be avoided by holding the diamond stone truly parallel the whole time.

My comments are true,and offered as constructive help. I have also learned quite a few things by attending these fora. I learned that auger bits come in different spirals for hard and soft woods from Mr. Canant. I never used them much being a musical instrument maker. Also,a lot of product information all the time. Other things regularly are also informative.

When you post pictures of your work,you are running the risk of getting comments that you may not like.

[Christian Castillo]

Ideally I wish my DMT XXC diamond stone is larger and wider than my waterstones. Sadly my DMT XXC is a bit shy of being as long and wide as my bester stones, so I use diagonal strokes from the top left corner to bottom right corner, then top right corner to bottom left corner, an X pattern. This is done with the diamond stone at a slight skew where it is almost lined up parallel with the waterstone. Any criticism regarding that form?

[George Summer]

Does anyone use the veritas lapping plate ? http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=59752&cat=1,43072

Ground flat to 0.001". Seems flat enough for woodwork to me, even the finest. Woodwork is not building space satellites :rolleyes:

[george wilson]

It's o.k.,Christian. You have to go with what you have,ultimately.

You are right,George. But what I don't like about lapping plates is that they require skillful technique to use,or they don't STAY flat. Most casual users may not have correct technique,or the ability to resurface the plate.

Since I have a machine shop,and a tool and cutter grinder,I can resurface them,but even so,I prefer to use a larger diamond plate.

[Christian Castillo]

Lee valley suggests you not use it to flatten water or oil stones, not to say you probably couldn't, but that is not what it was intended for and Lee Valley says in the instructions to not use it as such.

[Christian Castillo]

Thanks George.

[David Weaver]

Does anyone use the veritas lapping plate ? http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=59752&cat=1,43072

Ground flat to 0.001". Seems flat enough for woodwork to me, even the finest. Woodwork is not building space satellites :rolleyes:

They are plain cast iron as far as I know. I wouldn't use water on them. I never actually let mine rust, but I did shellac the sides and the bottom. The top is coated in oily swarf.

No big deal if the hone isn't as long as the stone, as long as it's very flat (and not tiny - like you wouldn't want to use one of those tiny little smiths pocket diamond hones). There shouldn't be any stone out there that a dmt or atoma can't flatten effectively to lap the back of the widest plane iron.

[george wilson]

It is a big deal to use a diamond sideways so that it is half the length of the stone. I used to rebuild lathes. You don't get worn beds true with too short master flats. You can diddle around and keep checking for flat,but if you HAVE a long diamond hone that is longer than your stone,why not just use it right?

[Steve knight]

It's o.k.,Christian. You have to go with what you have,ultimately.

You are right,George. But what I don't like about lapping plates is that they require skillful technique to use,or they don't STAY flat. Most casual users may not have correct technique,or the ability to resurface the plate.

Since I have a machine shop,and a tool and cutter grinder,I can resurface them,but even so,I prefer to use a larger diamond plate.

I fully agree. I got the shapton lapping plate out of flat you had to work to wear it evenly. a large diamond plate makes life far easier and makes flattening the stone pretty much fool proof.

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm sure I can't teach you anything,Wilbur. I just cannot see any use in doing something wrong. Perhaps we have different conceptions of what flatness is,and other things,like what constitutes a good fitting mortise and tenon.
George,

Just for you, I reshot the video, being careful to keep the plate in line with the waterstone this time. I figured it might be a nice gesture to spend the time to do that since you took the time to give me feedback.

As far as "conceptions of what flatness is", I did check out the waterstone that I had flattened using less than perfect technique that you pointed out. I couldn't get a 0.001" feeler gauge under a straightedge on the surface of the waterstone. I don't know if that meets your criteria for flatness, but at least there's a piece of hard data for you.

I agree that the best thing is to have a lapping surface that is longer than the thing being lapped. On the other hand, as you also mentioned, you have to go with what you have, and I have the same issue overall as Christian does with my diamond stone being just about the same length as my waterstone.

It is also true that it is possible to achieve a flat enough surface with a flattening device that is not as long as the surface being flattened, if you have good technique. Otherwise, we couldn't flatten boards that were longer than the longest jointer plane that we have. This probably explains why I was able to achieve the degree of flatness that I did on my waterstone, even though I did not use the best technique the first time around.

Anyway, my main point is not to discuss the degree of flatness that a diamond plate can get you in flattening a waterstone. My main point in making this video is to show how quickly and efficiently a waterstone can be flattened using a diamond stone, and I hope that I have done that.

[George Summer]

Thx guys for setting me straight :D

I have a small 6" dmt diasharp and it's far from flat, just sighting along it's length reveals a serious concavity, hence my doubts about the flattness of diamond stones.

I'm going to look into the atoma 400 grit as i'm fed up with the glass plate and sandpaper i'm using at the mo. Not at all economical in the long run and to much of a hassle.

[george wilson]

I happen to be in the unique position of being both a woodworker and machinist. I am used to working in .001",and sometimes to .0001" on occasion. It just isn't good engineering to try to use a short lap to flatten a longer stone if you have the means to do it properly.

I don't like laps because the lap wears as well as what you are lapping,and you must have the means to maintain the lap. Most don't. A diamond stone is the best thing for quickly getting the job done. Laps are frequently way too expensive,and not as durable as a diamond stone.

For certain classes of very high precision work,the lap is still the best way to go,like finishing gage blocks. This is not one of those cases.

Since some guys on the forum read information,and may use it to do whatever they need to work on,I try to give the best and most accurate work methods I can.

I am not a computer expert. Therefore I would not try to set myself up as a teacher of computer skills,and post pictures and such. I know I am an amateur in that field.

P.S.,Wilbur,I am glad that you have redone your video,but it isn't for my benefit as much as it is for the guys who will copy your technique. Good for you.

[george wilson]

I looked at the improved video. It is much better. The stone must have been a little hollow from the last time,because I noted that there were about 2" of pencil marks still on it half way through your honing. I am sure it is flatter now. Or,maybe your diamond stone is a bit hollow,leaving the pencil marks.

George,and EVERYONE: I must advise all of you to take a straight edge with you when selecting a diamond stone,because many of them are not flat,it is true. I had to look through 3 or 4 to satisfy myself when purchasing one.

It is a bit tricky selecting one,because the diamond particles hold the straight edge up off of the metal surface. You have to look sharp to see if the POINTS of the diamonds are touching the straight edge all the way across.

This isn't precision machine tool rebuilding,though. The diamond will make the waterstone flat enough.

Running wood over a jointer isn't precision work either. The boards will be flat enough for WOOD.

[Wilbur Pan]

I looked at the improved video. It is much better. The stone must have been a little hollow from the last time,because I noted that there were about 2" of pencil marks still on it half way through your honing. I am sure it is flatter now. Or,maybe your diamond stone is a bit hollow,leaving the pencil marks.
Wrong on both counts. The hollow was there because I did some sharpening before reflattening the waterstone for the second version of the video. No sense in making a video of flattening an already flat waterstone.

As I said before, with my first imperfect technique, my waterstone was flat to within 0.001" before I did my sharpening for the evening.

[Rick Markham]

Wilbur, thanks for posting that's all that I needed! I will be ordering the Atoma. Thanks for all the information guys! Thanks George for all your suggestions as always.

Ya'll are a great bunch for offering your opinions on the subject. Just as I suspected I am better off with the Atoma, than the lapping plate. I am mostly interested in effectiveness and ease of use, that way (like wilbur said) I am more likely to use it and get back to sharpening. The lapping plate's cost is just too prohibitive, and I see no longterm advantage to it, Thanks again!

[Steve knight]

I would give you a deal on the lapping plate and a bag of grit.

[David Weaver]

Thx guys for setting me straight :D

I have a small 6" dmt diasharp and it's far from flat, just sighting along it's length reveals a serious concavity, hence my doubts about the flattness of diamond stones.

I'm going to look into the atoma 400 grit as i'm fed up with the glass plate and sandpaper i'm using at the mo. Not at all economical in the long run and to much of a hassle.

DMT has a flatness guarantee. If you're ever bored, send them an email.

I only have one dmt stone, because I think they're kind of expensive for what they are, but it's a duosharp and it's flat. I even dropped it once and bent the corner and had to file it off, and the rest is still flat.

You will be pleased with the atoma, though - it does the work on a swarfy stone a lot faster.

[David Weaver]

It is a big deal to use a diamond sideways so that it is half the length of the stone. I used to rebuild lathes. You don't get worn beds true with too short master flats. You can diddle around and keep checking for flat,but if you HAVE a long diamond hone that is longer than your stone,why not just use it right?

I agree, george - longer is better. If you don't have it, though, you're (we're) ususally not polishing something the length of the stone.

It's very easy to tell if you're lapping a stone flat enough - the evidence is clear when you're flattening or honing something. If when you move to a finer stone, you don't uniformly remove the scratches from the prior stone, then one of your stones is out of flat.

If there is no such issue, then you're flat enough.

I noticed larry williams using a shorter/smaller hone in the moulding plane video, on a medium india. It may have just been what he had in the shop that day (I don't know where it was filmed), but I'm sure I could make it work. The stone telegraphs what it's doing for you - if you do find it's out of flat, a little bit of detective work about where it's wearing shows you the high spots.

That said, I use a long hone because it's easy. The same reason I leave the rubber base on it - because it's like having handles at the end and it's easy. Takes no skill, which is what I like. I'm pretty sure I could make it easily flat enough for an old jointer or #8 iron with a pocket hone if I had to (but I don't), just by paying attention to how the stone is working.

Thanks to curiosity, and I guess a lot of Larry's discussion about oilstones, I finally got a couple, and what I can get long, I'll get long. Two of them are 12", and the others 10" long. I haven't had an issue using the old beater DMT on the 12" stone and getting very flat results.

I think when we talk about what it takes to make an 8 foot lathe bed flat, we're off track some, so long as each stone is immediately uniformly working out the scratches of the prior stone (though that lathe would make a good place to stick 8 feet of abrasive so you could walk an iron in need of lapping right up the side of the lathe).

My woodworking buddy is a machinist. He shares the same brain-eating sickness that causes him to be severely disgusted with powermatic for having a table that is .006" out of flat from corner to corner on a 66. He also has a machine shop make his project jigs for him - out of steel and cast iron :eek:.

Anyway, bigger lap, defintely if you have the money for it. If not, one 2/3rds the length of the stone or whatever will do fine as long as it's flat.

[David Weaver]

What is good here is that at least we're talking about getting flat stones, and nobody has come in with the "i've never flattened a stone in my life and it's a waste of time, and I'm a master razor sharpener".

I'm kind of surprised how fast the medium india wears, though it's slower than the shaptons and a lot slower than the clay matrix waterstones.

[Derek Cohen]

I've never flattened a stone in my life and they are still as flat as the day I bought them.

Actually, I had this conversation with someone on a forum a few years ago. He was adament that his stones were flat, and that his technique - of moving around the stone - made it possible.

Who can tell? Was he right?

Are flat stones really necessary? Well, lengthwise they are if you are using a honing guide, if you hone freehand side-to-side, and if you are honing the back of a blade. Flatness is less important if you hone freehand front-to-back.

Side-to-side flatness is always important. Wilbur, this is where your flattening video falls down. Your technique ensures flatness along the length only. It can, in fact, create a camber on the stone. To avoid this and to ensure a flat stone across the width, you also need to work diagonally.

This is analogous to honing a bevel face - I work it side-to-side and then diagnonally, then back to side-to-side .. etc. Some like to work in circles.

Incidentally, I used to use a 10" DMT Extra Coarse Duostone on my Shaptons. It was pretty good. I had no complaints. Then I had the opportunity to try out the Shapton diamond honing plate (the second-from-the-top model) and was very impressed. Perhaps it was just newer, but it cut quickly and felt more comfortable and balnced in the hand. About a year later I was offered a brand new one at deceased estate for a very good price and could not say no. That was about 18 months ago, and I find it takes a couple of swipes, in all directions, and we are done.

Diamond stones ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Diamondstones.jpg

Waterstones (Shapton 1000/5000/12000) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/Shaptonwaterstones1.jpg

Using these holders allows the stones to be used in any direction - side on when freehanding and lengthwise with a guide.

Sharpening centre ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/SharpeningCentre6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Ah,Wilbur,I knew you'd have to say something to prove me wrong somehow. If your Shapton gets hollow that quickly,how long does it last? I'll stick to my diamond-black ceramic-white ceramic-strop method. They only need flattening once. After that,just a quick diamond rub to clean off steel bits sometimes.

Derek,I certainly agree that side to side flatness is important.

My favorite way of flattening a NON CERAMIC stone is to rub it on the side of an old sandstone wheel. I've even quickly flattened black arkansas stones like that. Of course,eventually the sandstone wheel would get worn,but since I never use quickly hollowed water stones,this flattening was an extremely infrequent job.

I tried waterstones many years ago,and never could get to like them. My tools always managed to get a bit of rust on them,though my hands do not make rust,even with the wiping down afterwards. I never liked the mess of dealing with them.

[Mark Roderick]

One thing nobody's mentioned that I find important.

Even with a large diamond lapping plate, you can get a stone out of flat if you press down harder on one area of the plate. No doubt skilled craftsmen don't have this problem, but I do! I alleviate this problem by gluing a semi-thick piece of wood to the plate. The wood gives me a better grip and also helps assure that I'm pressing equally on all parts of the plate.

[george wilson]

Sounds like a reasonable idea,Mark. I'm sure the wood would never get wet and swollen enough to deflect a 1/4" steel plate. Like everything,doing a lapping job requires some technique to be developed.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mark

Here's another idea. Instead of taking the diamond plate to the waterstone, flip them over and take the waterstone to the diamond plate. The waterstone is heavier and shorter, keep your pressure in the centre of the waterstone and it will be easier to hold it flat on the larger surface of the diamond plate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Derek,I just finally came across an old Stanley plane body. I'm not sure what model it is. There are no numbers cast into the frame. It isn't as wide as I'd like,maybe 1 3/4". I haven't measured it.

It should be fun to re do it into an infill plane!!!! :).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi George

Sounds like a #3.

That's great! I am really looking forward to what you come up with.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Coloccia]

re: hollowing and how long do water stones last

My stones hollow every time I use them. I flatten them after every blade and they're always ready to go. Since I use a combination of diamond, Norton 8000 and a Shapton 16000 glass stone, nothing requires soaking. Just a spritz of water works on all of it.

It takes just a couple of seconds to flatten them, and so far I have not seen any appreciable wear with about a year of moderate use. I'm sure they're wearing, but I'm also sure they'll last quite a while. We're talking very little wear, but there's not reason not to have it dead flat all the time.

Keep in mind too, though, that I don't go to the stones very often. If you're going to the stone a lot, it means you're not stropping soon enough. I do a LOT of stropping. It keeps the edge honed razor sharp all the time, and I rarely need to go to the stone except to fix an edge, change an angle, or when the strop finally stops working. A power hone, like the leather wheel on a Tormek, is even better, and I use that on my carving/turning tools.

That's my opinion, which is worth precisely what you paid for it...less if you're a contributor.

:)

[george wilson]

So,John,you say your stones last a long time,BUT you don't use them very often? I must say that that statement must be a truism!:) Glad to see you are a fellow stropper!

[harry strasil]

stropping is an excellent tool.

[Stephen Cherry]

dmt is not flat. I wish they are, but they just aren't. I have a solid metal one, and one that is plastic laminated with metal, and neither one is flat.

[David Weaver]

Are they outside of DMT's spec? I have only seen three duosharps, and all of them were less than 2 thousandths over their length (well, as near as I can tell - I don't get a rise out of trying to scrape feelers across diamonds under a straightedge). I've never bought a diasharp - I don't like the way the electroplate is on them, and they're too close to a duosharp in price.

A lot of people seem to have out of flat duosharps - I think they guarantee a reasonably tight tolerance, and if you can be sure they're out of flat, I'd get them to do something about it.

My biggest issue with the duosharp is that I used one of mine first to sharpen, and it didn't last very long. I used it to set up two sets of chisels and a couple of plane blades, and it's absolutely and completely beat.

[george wilson]

I used mine to flatten some ceramic stones. They were still o.k.. But,you have to have a light touch with diamonds because they are about the most brittle thing out there. Plus,they can get loose from the plated nickel matrix.

As I said earlier,I have had to hand select each diamond stone I bought. I have seen the yellow plastic ones that aren't very flat,also. The ones with a deep plastic base that I also have seem pretty flat.

[David Weaver]

George, i basically wore mine off, i'd think. With metal, not with stones.

The ones I've saved for stones only seem to do pretty well, because just the nature of lapping stones keeps the pounds of force per unit area pretty low compared to honing.

The funny thing is, I got a cheap koyama copy from a sharpening stone place, two of them, and both of them are still relatively good cutters and have done a lot more than the DMT did. I'm not sure I buy the monocrystalline argument that DMT uses - their diamonds may not fracture, but they seem to either leave the hone or become "dull" before my cheaper hones.

I have since gone to loose diamonds for initial flattening or removing pits - you can push as hard as you want, and if the kanaban gets out of flat, you can lap it and start over.

[george wilson]

I do not want loose diamond paste getting around my shop,finding its way onto my lathes or milling machines,especially my Hardinge HLVH. Once it happens,they are done.

[Mark Roderick]

Excellent idea.

[David Weaver]

I do not want loose diamond paste getting around my shop,finding its way onto my lathes or milling machines,especially my Hardinge HLVH. Once it happens,they are done.

I should probably specify that I only use loose diamonds for flattening the backs of irons, and even at that, I only use them with something "wet" to keep them in place. usually wd40.

I never actually use loose grit to flatten stones.

But your point is a good one, whatever goes in the shop will get everywhere sometime. I had the same experience with my table saw crosscut sled and grinder grit. I had the two pretty far apart, but somehow I still got grinder dust on the TS top and didn't know it, and it got itself embedded into the melamine on the TS sled.

It's a seldom enough activity (flattening the backs of irons where they are bad enough to need loose grit and an iron holder), though, that I could tolerate using it only outside the shop.

[George Summer]

George,and EVERYONE: I must advise all of you to take a straight edge with you when selecting a diamond stone,because many of them are not flat,it is true. I had to look through 3 or 4 to satisfy myself when purchasing one.

I totally agree with checking before you buy, but i need to buy most of my stuff through the net as there are NO serious woodworker shops in my country, so no chance of checking before buying :(

[Stuart Tierney]

I totally agree with checking before you buy, but i need to buy most of my stuff through the net as there are NO serious woodworker shops in my country, so no chance of checking before buying :(

You could always ask the seller to check it for you...


I know I would check if asked, but I already know where most of the glitches in the things I do sell lurk, and won't send something obviously out of kilter.

Well, normally I don't anyway. Someone around here would tell you different, but he's the only one who ends up getting dodgy stuff from me. :(