Ready to Purchase new Cabinet Saw, Questions..

[Ray DuBose]

Hey Everyone, been doing a lot of research on several different Table Saws and thought I would ask you guys until I can find a place to get my hands on all these and play with them.

I've been saving for a long time with my Eye on a PM2066 Custom that Wood Werks did. And now that I have the money I find out they aren't making them anymore. I was really heart broken.

The PM66 isn't made anymore and I want a riving knife. I have since found out you can order a PM2000 with a Baldor motor which should get me closer to the PM2066 but not quite there.

What I'm looking for is a 1phase 5hp 220v Cabinet Saw with a Riving knife and 52" table. I've currently got a 30" Delta Contractor with a Biesmeyer fence and cast iron table. As with most in this same predicament I'm looking at the new Unisaw, PM2000, SawStop, and General.

Unisaw seems to get very good reviews, I'm not 100% happy with the Biesmeyer fence because it's not dead flat all the way down. I've herd the new Biesmeyer fences do not use the 9ply Plywood on the Face anymore but I haven't seen one in person.

PM2000 - Seems to have all the features as the rest, not sure what makes it stand out in a crowd. The ability to order it with the Baldor Motor brings it back to the table for me, have herd the tables aren't as flat as the 66's.

SawStop - If you take out the Break is this tablesaw still in the same league as the Unisaw. I've read several sites were people complain about the break tripping with cutting wet wood and such. Also trying to figure out the difference in the Professional series and the Industrial Series. All I can figure out is the Industrial Series is about 200lbs heavier and a better dust collection.

General 650 - Never Seen one, people either love them or not and from what I can figure out that are more of a old school design which isn't so bad.

I don't mind spending the money on the right tablesaw. Any help will be appreciated, I know several people have already been through this myself.

Thanks,

Ray

[Jeff Hallam]

Hi Ray,

I have the General 650 so that is the only one I can comment on. It really is a solid machine with lots of power and good craftsmanship. I had the 52" Biesemeyer style fence which also works very well. However, at the least version I have has the old style blade splitter that has been collecting dust on a shelf since I first assembled the saw. In its place I use the MicroJig splitter which seems to work well. On the upside, I believe the latest iterations of this saw come with a quick removal riving knife although it's worth checking with General before a purchase to be sure.

It was a big handover of $$$ 3 years ago but I haven't had any issues with mine and am very happy. I'm sure all the other ones you are considering are also top performers so in the end it might come down to quality of customer service / delivery costs etc..

Jeff

[Will Overton]

"SawStop - If you take out the Break is this tablesaw still in the same league as the Unisaw. I've read several sites were people complain about the break tripping with cutting wet wood and such. Also trying to figure out the difference in the Professional series and the Industrial Series. All I can figure out is the Industrial Series is about 200lbs heavier and a better dust collection."

The industrial has a larger footprint and top. It's available in 3, 5, & 7.5 hp.

The PCS is available in 1.75 and 3hp. The 3hp has the dust collecting blade guard standard, while it is an option on the 1.75hp. The 1.75 is also available with a cheaper fence, like the one on the contractor saw.

As for cutting wet wood, there is an over ride to prevent triggering the brake. There is a way to let the saw check to see if you need to use the over ride.

Very recently there was a post (here or another site?) where the OP said his SS just came to a stop without triggering the brake. He called SS and was told the saw sensed wet wood and shut down automatically. After engaging the over ride he was able to complete the cuts. He also noted that the information on this, including which light would be flashing, is in the owner's manual.

I looked at the Delta and PM the other day (not to buy) while ordering the 1.75hp PCS. I didn't test them, but all three brands look to be very well made.

[Rob Steffeck]

General 650 - Never Seen one, people either love them or not and from what I can figure out that are more of a old school design which isn't so bad.

This is the saw that I purchased about 3 months ago. I'm very happy with my decision. Its very well built and seemed beefier than the others that I was considering (specifically the trunnions and saw body). Mine is the 3HP Baldor version and in my limited time with the saw, its been more than sufficient power-wise. The quick release riving knife works well. My only real complaint is related to the blade guard. Its aluminum which is nice in case you either drop it or drop something on it, but its terrible as far as visibility versus the more traditional see-thru plastic. Again, this isn't a huge issue because I rarely have it on and I plan to upgrade to an overarm dust collector someday.

It is a bit short on innovation, but has all the main features you really need. To me the quality and durability was worth that tradeoff.

[Aaron Wingert]

The Grizzly G0605x1 is one you shouldn't overlook. It does have a riving knive, and is a 12" saw.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Extreme-Tablesaw-1-Phase-5HP/G0605X1

If you're not dead set on a 5hp, they have numerous 10" 3hp configurations, all with riving knives. Some of their saws have Leeson motors as well.

[Dave MacArthur]

I have a PM66, and love it.
However, from what I've read in many many threads, the SawStop is perhaps the best of all, even without the brake. Everyone agrees it's a great saw. Under-cabinet dust collection shroud and above the blade DC would be a huge plus for me.

[Aaron Berk]

I've got last yrs 605X I didn't want the X1 because of various personal reasons and the shipping weight on the X1's is less than that of the standard x model. Not sure if this meant the used less steal in the cabinet or what??


But I LOVE mine

Never touched a different cabinet saw though, this is my First ever.


The Grizzly G0605x1 is one you shouldn't overlook. It does have a riving knive, and is a 12" saw.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Extreme-Tablesaw-1-Phase-5HP/G0605X1

If you're not dead set on a 5hp, they have numerous 10" 3hp configurations, all with riving knives. Some of their saws have Leeson motors as well.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Safer Still:
Look at European Sliding Table Saws

and if you like those Baldor Motors, Laguna has a model close to the cost of the high end SawStop.

Look at them all. It's a big decision.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ray, I had a General 650 which I replaced with a Hammer B3 Winner.

The General is a very well made saw, dated in design, however very well made and accurate.

The only problem with the cabinet saws was that all they did well was rip.

I now have a saw with the same footprint that can straight line rip, conventional rip, crosscut a full sheet of plywood, and it has the capability of using 10" or 12" blades and it has scoring saw.

It also has excellent dust collection above and below the blade, and a 3 position rip fence that allows you to safely make rip cuts that aren't possible on other machines.

In my case I also have a tilting spindle shaper in it, however the Euro sliders are also available as a saw only.

You couldn't convince me to buy another cabinet saw after owning a slider.

Regards, Rod.

[Ray DuBose]

Having never used a European Slider I may be wrong on this but it looks like it's mostly for sheet goods. I mostly use solid lumber so will this type of saw be overkill for my purpose?

Also I keep reading how European Sliders take up less space but when looking at them online The sliding table seems to take up a lot of room. I don't have a lot of space and I understand on a cabinet saw I need that much room around it free but when I'm not sawing that space isn't being used and I can walk around my shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ray, I have a small one with a 49" sliding table, which can crosscut a sheet of plywood.

It takes up the same amount of space as my cabinet saw did, it's just turned 90 degrees to the orientation of my old saw.

I also primarily use solid wood, with ply used for cabinet backs for example.

The ability to clip on table extensions is great, the saw is only as large as I need at the time.

The outrigger table removes in a minute, and the arm folds against the saw when not in use.

Regards, Rod.

P.S.

Have a look at the Hammer and Felder videos, with the realisation that you can order the saw customised for your application specific needs.

Regards, Rod.

[Frank Drew]

I'm with Rod and would suggest at least considering a sliding table saw: My Ulmia 1711 didn't take up all that much more room than the Powermatic 70(?) it replaced, and I could cross cut up to 54" and rip with the fence to 34" or so. I also worked mainly in solid but it's nice having one saw that can take care of pretty much all your cutting needs since I didn't have enough room along a wall for a radial arm saw.

[Will Blick]

Ray...of course as you know, there is NO right answer to your question.... most depends on what you will use the saw for, that dictates what saw is best for you... The level of saws you are looking at are all superb, doubt you would be unhappy with any of them...

I have a PM2000, its a solid saw, its nicest feature (other than being rock solid) is the riving knife that moves with the blade. All the other features were a "nice try" but not so great, like the wheels and blade guards... fence is mediocre, a bit outdated IMO.... but for some, the added fetures may be "good enough" and of value...... I went with an incra fence, router extension ...ect. the point being, often you have to cusotmize to best suit the type of work you do and the space you have available...

If I had to do it over again.... I would probably opt for a 12" TS. IMO, this size, such as the Grizz mentioned by Aaron is often overlooked as a great hybrid saw (betwen a slider and a standard cabinet saw). The reason is...I find the limitation of standard 10" TS's are primarily with the width of a board you can cut. While a panel saw can handle a full sheet, a standard TS struggles with 12" - 14" wide boards... to overcome this, we build sleds which reduces the depth of cut, which starts at a tad over 3"....after a 3/4" sled, maybe 2 1/4" remains...

With a 12" saw, I would build a larger top...to greatly increase the infeed and outfeed, and at the same time, still having a net gain on the max. cut height...probably another 1/2". This would make a nice table saw IMO, handling widths up to 20 - 22" comfortably. You can improvise with building all kinds of infeed / outfeed options with a 10" saw, but IMO, not as nice as a fixed top... of course this takes up extra space, is time consuming to build, etc. You also need to buy a rock solid top material that is FLAT, a bit of an obstacle, but there is many choices out there. So whether this issue concerns one, is what the avg. size board you cut is.... if you rarely cut wide boards, a sled with 10" saw would suffice.....

Lots of considerations though, certainly this is not on everyones major priority list... just thought I would mention it... if safety is the number one concern, of course the SS is ideal...and as others have attested, even without the safety feature, its as good as, or better than any cabinet saw out there... the bottom line is, today, the higher end tools are pretty amazing...

As for Grizz table saw, I never seen the one in the link, but I can tell you Grizz high end tools are as good as any on the market. My 12" Extreme Grizz jointer is the nicest of all my tools...

[Van Huskey]

Ray, I ended up in the same position with the 2066, that was a really cool saw, shame they quit making them.

If you are a fan of the PM66 you might want to try to look at the General 650, although I normally don't recommend the saw due to the fact it is VERY old school, I just PMed someone this morning saying it reminded me of the 66, aluminum guard and all. From a pure basic saw point of view the only things that I am not a fan of is the smaller table and the switch and the price should be about $500 lower.

I went with the PM2000 with as you mentioned a Baldor motor and got a very good deal on it, I think they still have some but I think you want a 5hp.

If you want the BEST 10" American style cabinet saw then the SS ICS should be at the top of your radar, without the brake it is still the best but commands a premium. The PCS sounds like it is built a little "lighter" than you prefer your saws.

In all honestly you can't really go wrong with the ICS, PM2K or Uni, the 650 is right up there as well if an old school saw is what you want.

[Joe Jensen]

I've owned 4 different saws since graduating college.
1) A 1970s Unisaw that I bought used in 1984. It came with a Biesemeyer fence from the first year Bob Biesemeyer sold them and he even installed it himself. I was very happy with the Uni until I saw a PM66 that tilted away from the fence.
2) In 1990 I sold the Uni and bought a new made in the USA PM66 with a 72" Biesemeyer fence. I loved the saw and used it with great pleasure until my wife insisted I buy a SawStop.
3) In 2006 my wife and I were running some errands and we stopped at a large WW tool dealer to pick up some supplies. The store had a Sawstop ICS (they were pretty new then) with the top off so you could see the guts. While I was busy checking it out the salesman showed my wife the hot dog video. When I was paying for the supplies my wife declared that I needed to switch to a Sawstop and we ordered the 5HP 52" version right there. Great saw.
4) I do quite a bit with sheet goods and keeps large parts square with a cabinet saw was always a challenge. I tried a Festool guided saw and the cut was fantastic but it didn't help at all with keeping things really square. I had a final project that put me over the edge and I decided to get a sliding saw/shaper combo. That ended up being a Felder KF700SP with a 9' slider.

With any saw, keeping the blade perfectly parallel with the miter slot no matter what height it is set at, or what angle it is set at is a big challenge. Unisaws and PM66 saws depend on perfection in machining to make sure this happens. If the pivot isn't perfectly perpendicular to the miter slot, AND perfectly level, when the saw blade raises and lowers, the blade will move relative to the miter slot causing cut problems or burnging. Also, when the blade tilts, both halves of the trunion need to be EXACTLY the same, or the blade will change relative to the miter as the angle is adjusted. When the Uni and PM66 were made in the USA, they probably put the time and cost into making sure those things were machined with precision. I personally don't trust the asian manufacturers to ensure that these critical areas are perfectly machined. Manufactures use shims to adjust this, but the shims just shift the error around. Say it's perfect at blade height max, and off .005" with the blade 1" above the table. The shims make it so that it's off .0025" at the top, on at 2", and off -.0025" at the bottom. This helps but it doesn't really solve the problem.

SawStop planned for this and they designed their trunion with adjustments for this that remove the error, not just shift it around, (I know this on the ICS, not sure on the other Sawstop saws). You can download the Sawstop ICS manual on their website and read about the adjustments. I have all the dial indicator tools and jigs and I was impressed that the Sawstop ICS was perfectly dialed in right out of the crate. The Sawstop also has gas struts to counterbalance blade height adjustment and angle adjustment, and interlocks on the doors for safety, the riving knife, and other things I'm not remembering.

As far as I can tell, the Felder doesn't have the adjustments of the SawStop, but I checked it thoroughly and it is essentially perfect.

This is why I claim the SawStop is superior to the Uni and PM66.

[Brian Penning]

Show your wife/partner/whatever the SawStop video.
Let them decide. :D

[Neal Clayton]

if i had to buy a new one today, i'd buy the 12" grizzly, tbh. there are uses for a larger blade on a table saw, lots of them. and it's the only commonly available single phase 12" saw that i know of (someone correct me if i'm wrong).

i currently use a ~20 year old PM66.

[Rod Sheridan]

if i had to buy a new one today, i'd buy the 12" grizzly, tbh. there are uses for a larger blade on a table saw, lots of them. and it's the only commonly available single phase 12" saw that i know of (someone correct me if i'm wrong).

i currently use a ~20 year old PM66.

Hi Neal, the Euro machines generally accept a 10 or 12" blade........Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

My Felder slider takes a 12" blade, 5.5HP 1PH

[Aaron Berk]

if i had to buy a new one today, i'd buy the 12" grizzly, tbh. there are uses for a larger blade on a table saw, lots of them. and it's the only commonly available single phase 12" saw that i know of (someone correct me if i'm wrong).

i currently use a ~20 year old PM66.


You know when I was deciding to get my G0605X I was thinking that I would install the 5/8 arbor and just use 10" blades. I had decided to save the 12" blade for the times I "desperately" needed the extra depth.

Well now that I've had the saw for awhile I've swapped everything over to 12" blades and don't plan on using 10"s for any thing other than a 10"dado blade.

The number ONE advantage to me with the 12" blade is the increased blade depth when using a sled.

Number TWO would be the "sheer" angle provided by the larger diameter blade. (correct terminology?)

Number THREE would be the over all increase in blade depth for bevel rips, and 90's.

Now my selling point on the actual cabinet saw itself was the increased table depth between the operator and first contact with the blade. Gives more room for a wider cross cut, and better sled support for the big one.
Oh, and the 5hp didn't hurt either :D

[Neal Clayton]

You know when I was deciding to get my G0605X I was thinking that I would install the 5/8 arbor and just use 10" blades. I had decided to save the 12" blade for the times I "desperately" needed the extra depth.

Well now that I've had the saw for awhile I've swapped everything over to 12" blades and don't plan on using 10"s for any thing other than a 10"dado blade.

The number ONE advantage to me with the 12" blade is the increased blade depth when using a sled.

Number TWO would be the "sheer" angle provided by the larger diameter blade. (correct terminology?)

Number THREE would be the over all increase in blade depth for bevel rips, and 90's.

Now my selling point on the actual cabinet saw itself was the increased table depth between the operator and first contact with the blade. Gives more room for a wider cross cut, and better sled support for the big one.
Oh, and the 5hp didn't hurt either :D

yep, agree on all of those things. the only complaint i have with my old PM66 is an 8" dado won't give me a 4" tenon jig cut. i hate having to finish deep bridle joints on a mortiser, the hole isn't close to as clean as a dado blade. with a 10" or 12" dado blade i could build windows entirely without a mortiser (except for the muntin mortises). i'm tempted to buy the 10" forrest 5/8 dado set for that reason. i have a 5hp motor so can drive it, i just complain about the price when i have a 8" dado set that's only a couple of years old :(

[Peter Aeschliman]

I recently bought a Sawstop PCS.

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but the ICS actually has worse dust collection than the PCS (no dust collecting blade guard). However, the ICS is heavier duty and has deeper cast iron tables.

Either way, you won't be disappointed with a SS.

However, I have found myself frustrated with the inability to square up panels on my table saw. This is a criticism for all North American cabinet style saws. I guess I've been doing a fair amount of case work lately. So not I'm starting to wonder whether I:

1) Should've bought a slider... For less money, I could've gotten a nice Grizzly slider. It would solve the panel/squaring/cross cut struggles I've been having. But ripping is probably the most common operation I use the TS for, and the sawstop has a HUGE edge over current sliders in terms of safety during ripping operations, or

2) Should buy a sliding table attachment for my saw. Grizzly and Laguna have one very similar models I'm considering, but after forking out be big money for the Sawstop, it will be a while before it's in the budget.

End of the day, I love my table saw. Super well-built machine and performs at the same level as the competitors in its class, with the added safety. But a lot of woodworking involves making square panels, so don't forget about that.

Peter

[Joe Jensen]

I recently sold a 15 year old Forrest dado set with a chipped chip breaker for $150. Sell yours and buy the bigger one.

[Ray DuBose]

Actually as of a Week or so ago according to the SS people when I called them, the PCS and the ICS both have the same Dust Collection now.

I saw that Grizzly was making sliders but Hammer has a Deal this month on a pretty nice machine with a 80" sled that's normally like $9k and it's on sale at the same price as all the Grizzly's I've looked at.

I want to build several sets of cabinets in the future but haven't made any at this point so don't know the issues with Cabinet saws and squaring up panels.

The Sliders look nice but I've never used one and it seems all the ones around that I can take a look at are some large industrial versions that wouldn't really be comparing apples to apples. I still keep trying to figure out how to make jigs and such for the Euro Sliders like a Box Joint Jig or a Box Jig for a Keyhole Slot..




I recently bought a Sawstop PCS.

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but the ICS actually has worse dust collection than the PCS (no dust collecting blade guard). However, the ICS is heavier duty and has deeper cast iron tables.

Either way, you won't be disappointed with a SS.

However, I have found myself frustrated with the inability to square up panels on my table saw. This is a criticism for all North American cabinet style saws. I guess I've been doing a fair amount of case work lately. So not I'm starting to wonder whether I:

1) Should've bought a slider... For less money, I could've gotten a nice Grizzly slider. It would solve the panel/squaring/cross cut struggles I've been having. But ripping is probably the most common operation I use the TS for, and the sawstop has a HUGE edge over current sliders in terms of safety during ripping operations, or

2) Should buy a sliding table attachment for my saw. Grizzly and Laguna have one very similar models I'm considering, but after forking out be big money for the Sawstop, it will be a while before it's in the budget.

End of the day, I love my table saw. Super well-built machine and performs at the same level as the competitors in its class, with the added safety. But a lot of woodworking involves making square panels, so don't forget about that.

Peter

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ray, a box joint jig for the slider would be similar to one for a tablesaw.

A piece of wood attached to the crosscut fence with a locating peg for the box joint.

Here are two videos from the Felder site, worth watching.

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/the-complete-workshop.html?videosgruppen_id=0

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/the-hammer-saw.html?videosgruppen_id=0

regards, Rod.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Actually as of a Week or so ago according to the SS people when I called them, the PCS and the ICS both have the same Dust Collection now.

Good to know. I know they started selling the accessory package for the ICS that included the under-table dust shroud and the dust collecting blade guard, but I didn't know they were selling it standard on the new ICS machines.



I want to build several sets of cabinets in the future but haven't made any at this point so don't know the issues with Cabinet saws and squaring up panels.

The issue is that a standard table saw is really only good at cutting two parallel sides. One side of the workpiece slides along the rip fence, the opposite side gets cut off by the saw. The side getting cut is essentially copying the side riding against the fence.

Although it's great at making two parallel sides, it doesn't do well at making square corners. You can't use the rip fence when squaring up a 40" x 10" panel because it's unsafe to make a cut like that: it's really hard to keep the 10" edge against the fence with such a wide board. If you don't keep it firmly against the fence, the workpiece can bind against the blade and cause kickback.

You also can't use a miter gauge on a piece that wide, because there isn't enough space between the front of the table and the front of the blade. What I've had to do lately is lower the blade below the table, place the miter gauge and workpiece on the table saw, holding the workpiece against the miter guage, start the saw, and slowly raise it up so that it cuts through the workpiece.

This is not ideal (and really time consuming when you have a lot of pieces to cut), and won't work on pieces much larger than say 12" on most table saws.

A slider gives you way more capacity to crosscut a sheet of plywood squarely. If you plan to do kitchen cabinets, a slider will make a huge difference. Grizzly offers a 5hp 1 phase slider for $2,700. It's a 10", but I don't really see why you'd need a 12" anyway.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Sliding-Tablesaw/G0623X

The thing about the sliders that I don't like is the rip fences are often pretty flimsy.