Emmert Vise

[Dave Gallaher]

OK, I'm on the prowl for a Emmert Vise. I've seen them in the past between $400 and $750 or higher. What is the difference? What is the average price for a vise like this?

[Jeff Burks]

The price will vary based on the model, condition, completeness, original/clone, location, demand, buyer, seller, etc, etc. Pattern Makers vises are often missing parts by the time they end up for sale at the flea market or tag sale. The Emmert Pattern Maker's Vise came in 2 basic sizes, with many variations. There were other inventors of similar vises, and they all got copied throughout the 20th century after the patents expired. Don't be fooled into thinking they are super rare. They were expensive when new (think 10-12 days wages) and can be expensive used (compared to available consumer trash). Do your homework before you buy one.

Joseph F. Emmert - Patented more than one vise:
457,710 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=295UAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Turtleback Vise
471,169 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=Dl5wAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A471169&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Vise
510,124 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=KOVUAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A510124&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Jeweler's Vise
709,399 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=S3tpAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A709399&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Universal Machinists' Vise
787,328 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=XQY_AAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A787328&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Turtleback Vise

Gilmore M. Yost
899,779 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=m_59AAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A899779&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Patternmaker's Vise
1,298,145 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=JhVgAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=1%2C298%2C145&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Columbian Model 3B
1,298,146 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=JxVgAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=1298146&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Columbian Model 1A

728,858 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=PmhgAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A728858&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Vise - Edgar Byer
1,000,417 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=n_FPAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A1000417&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Turret Vise - Harry Kuhn
1,310,351 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=RWdOAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A1310351&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Victor R. Koontz
1,385,504 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=T-dGAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=patent%3A1385504&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Freeman Stroh

There are also reproduction versions and new improved renditions.
5,127,639 (http://www.google.com/patents?id=wyUiAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false) Adjustable Vise (Lee Valley/Veritas) The Tucker Vise (http://books.google.com/books?id=h_sDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA14&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Woodworking Vises - Get a Grip on Your Work (http://books.google.com/books?id=CfYDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA56&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false) - American Woodworker
Robert Whitley's Workbench (http://books.google.com/books?id=DfYDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA36&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA36#v=onepage&q&f=false) - American Woodworker
Wood pattern-making (http://books.google.com/books?id=QNQJAAAAIAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA168#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Horace Traiton Purfield
Emmert patternmakers vice Type U5 (http://www.brasscityrecords.com/toolworks/emmert_vice/emmert_vice.html) - Brass City Records
Shavings.net (http://www.shavings.net/EMMERT.HTM)
PearceWoodworking (http://www.pearcewoodworking.com/forsale.aspx)
MvR's Workbenches (http://www.mvr1.com/myworkbenches.html)
The Great Bench Making Class of 2003 (http://jjblack.net/BenchClassWebFiles/BenchClass.htm)
G.M. Yost Manufacturing Company Patternmaker's Vise (http://www.galootapalooza.org/yost.html)


Emmert Advertisement (1902) (http://books.google.com/books?id=wSQAAAAAMAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=RA1-PA96#v=onepage&q&f=false) Machinery Volume 8
Emmert Advertisement (1907) (http://books.google.com/books?id=XSk2AAAAIAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=RA1-PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false)Railway master mechanic, Volume 31
The Emmert (http://books.google.com/books?id=0UM7AAAAMAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=RA2-PA13#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Emmert New Universal, Machinist and Toolmakers Vises (http://books.google.com/books?id=fisAAAAAMAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA698#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Emmert Universal Pattern Maker's Vises (http://books.google.com/books?id=_3oAAAAAMAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA815#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Emmert Universal Vise (http://books.google.com/books?id=3UdVAAAAMAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Emmert "Presto" (http://books.google.com/books?id=J6TmAAAAMAAJ&dq=Emmert%20MFG%20Co&lr&as_brr=1&pg=PA396#v=onepage&q&f=false) - Quick-Acting Machinist's Vise
Modern machine shop construction equipment and management (http://books.google.com/books?id=CToPAAAAYAAJ&dq=Emmert%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA170#v=onepage&q&f=false) By Charles Oscar Eugene Perrigo
The Yost Improved Vise for Woodworkers and Patternmakers (http://books.google.com/books?id=3kQ7AAAAMAAJ&dq=Yost%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=PA59#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Oliver Universal Vise (http://books.google.com/books?id=4QgCAAAAYAAJ&dq=Oliver%20Universal%20Vise&pg=PR41#v=onepage&q&f=false) 2 (http://books.google.com/books?id=UHEhAAAAMAAJ&dq=Oliver%20Universal%20Vise&lr&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is&as_brr=1&pg=RA10-PA27#v=onepage&q&f=false)


These 2 links will be the most useful:
The Iron Hand (http://mprime.com/Emmert/) by Carl Matthews
Emmert Vise Blog (http://emmert-vise.blogspot.com/)

Keep in mind that Emmerts require specific bench mutilation (http://mprime.com/Emmert/Images/Emmert-U5-RogerVanMaren-Mount06.jpg).

[Ross Canant]

The under table tilt lock is over $100 for a reproduction. Many are missing from the vises for sale. Many have welded jaws where they were broken. There can be other problems, missing dogs, broken hinge plates, etc. Both the Turtleback (earlier) and the K1 are very nice vises to use.

[David Keller NC]

Dave - In general, and especially with Emmert vises (true emmerts, not the modern clones), if the price is below about $500 - $600, you should be suspicious that the vise has been broken and re-welded, substantial parts are missing (i.e., not easily replaceable bolts, but things like locking collars), or that the vise has been cobbled together from parts that are the wrong model and/or don't work well together.

Typically, you should expect that a $700+ vise is a complete and original K1 (without the original handle, which is easily replaced). A completely original and early turtleback with its original vise handle might also sell in this range. Really rare emmert vises can go for thousands - to collectors, obviously.

Many of the early rip-offs are well worth having, particularly the Bishop and Yost versions. Except for the Veritas Tucker's vise, the new and cheap ones are almost universally junk and not worth having.

[Paul Saffold]

From their on-line catalog: "Due to supply and production issues, the Tucker Vise is no longer available."

[Bob Smalser]

Except for the Veritas Tucker's vise, the new and cheap ones are almost universally junk and not worth having.

As has been pointed out, the Tucker is no longer being made.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7297605/95066292.jpg

And I've been using a new Emmert Taiwanese clone I bought from Highland Hardware during one of their sales five years ago that has held everything from fine mahogany to tractor wheels without complaint. It is a superb tool made every bit as well as the originals.

And it cost a whopping 200 bucks plus $12.00 shipping from Atlanta to Washington State. One of the better values I've seen lately at twice the price.

An Emmert Vise Clone
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19807

[David Keller NC]

Bob - good that you've gotten an exception, but at 3 of the local woodworker's club in my area got an inexpensive emmert clone made in asia, and all three of them disposed of them on fleabay and got an antique yost or emmert. My comments were based on their experience, and personal examination of one of these in a Woodcraft store. Seems to be a bit of a crap shoot as to whether a good one can be had or not.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob - good that you've gotten an exception, but at 3 of the local woodworker's club in my area got an inexpensive emmert clone made in asia, and all three of them disposed of them on fleabay and got an antique yost or emmert. My comments were based on their experience, and personal examination of one of these in a Woodcraft store. Seems to be a bit of a crap shoot as to whether a good one can be had or not.

My research at the time indicated there was only one foundry in Taiwan making these clones....and I don't think that's changed.

So folks who want one should call Highland and talk to their tech guys about it. I never found them to be short-sighted about their reputation, and I've been doing business there since they opened. They have no reason at all to misrepresent the quality of what they are selling today.

As I said, the one I have equals or exceeds the tolerances and finish used in the originals....and unlike most originals, mine came with all the parts.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7297605/95066149.jpg

[Ross Canant]

I have probably 15 original Emmerts in my shop (ok, I got the bug a few years ago), both K1 and Turtlebacks. I can tell you from that picture that the finishes do not compare at all. You won't see that rough grain finish on Emmert castings. That likely won't affect the holding of work, but I'm just saying....The Turtlebacks have particularly nice castings, swooping curving locking handles and such.

[Jon van der Linden]

Since I've owned one of the Emmert clones for over 15 years I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I absolutely agree, the casting is rough and the action can be bad. That said, mine works very smoothly and tight, and it didn't come that way.

All it took to change mine from junky and annoying to smooth and tight was a file and a washer. I took the vise completely apart, smoothed the adjusting surfaces and cams with the file and inserted a thrust bearing washer between the T handle and beam to take up slop and make it turn more smoothly. After this, adjusting the vise for tapers was smooth and rotating the handle was immediately responsive... and quiet.

If you only need a 14" vise, the clone is not a bad choice if you're prepared to spend 20 minutes fiddling with it after it's installed. Then again, I wouldn't count on an old one requiring substantially less attention. I've always found the fact that it's not the K-1's 18" size to be its primary drawback. Even so, it works quite well and I wouldn't expect much if anything more from the "genuine article."

[Russ Hauser]

I might have told this story before, If I did , I appologize.

Years ago the company I worked for closed one of it's foundries. I had been in that plant many times and knew the pattern shop benches were equipped with Emmert K1 vises. There being a couple dozen vises involved and knowing the person who was responsible for disposing of equipment. I contacted him to find out how the vises were being disposed of. He told me they had been removed from the benches and if I wanted one, I should show up at the plant the following day and pick one out. When I got there, all the vises had been loaded in a large crate constructed on a pallet. The vises were dissasembled, and I had to dig thru the crate to come up with the parts to make one complete vise.

After I got home and cleaned the vise, I thought it would be a good idea to have another for spare parts. When I called my friend he told me the vises had been sold to a scrap dealer and had already been fed to the crusher. Sad but true.

Russ

[Stan MacMoran]

I joined the Sawmill Creek forums some time ago but tonight did a search on Emmert Vises and found a post by Dave Gallaher regarding them.
I was just wondering if there is still any interest as my father was a patternmaker for over 55 years and I have most of his tools from his home shop. There are two Emmert vises a T1 Turtleback and a U2 both very well used but in excellent condition. I am planning to list them in the classified section but will take some photos first.

Stan

[Larry Fox]

Search the Classifides section, IIRC there was a guy in Jersey listing a Turtleback for $500 a few weeks ago. I have a #2 and it is a really REALLY nifty gizmo and have found a ton of uses for it already. They are tough to mount properly though.