My poor poor cast iron top

[Robert gree]

I went out of town for a few weeks. and have retured home to a table top covered in ROS swirls and some fairly deep scratches around the insert (can barely feel when you run your finger nail over them).

My so call helper did a small project and spilled some glue on the top and used the ROS. well not only did this swirl the top it removed my protective coating and let the dull brownish color to appear.

My goal is obtain the the like new surface i received the saw with from grizzly. Would like the polished top look and the horrible ROS swirls gone as well as the nasty brown patina.

Would course of action do i need to embark on to achieve this? Or do i just need to suck it up and buy a new top?

i know its not a big deal to some, but i pride myself in keeping my tools tip top cosmetically and mechanically (the OCD does not help).

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m244/F3RR3T_01/DSCF0104.jpg

[Will Overton]

Or do i just need to suck it up and buy a new top?



Or suck it up and get back to woodworking. ;)

In the meantime let your helper clean it up and wax it.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You can sand the top using your ROS - maybe finer grit paper...

[Peter Quinn]

Let me be the first to say that sucks, but holly molly get over it. Corse of action? Take out any problematic nicks with fine emery cloth, coat of past wax applied with synthetic brillo, and push wood over it as required. I pride myself on wood working, I hate that shiny silly new chrome polished top look, more than half of my machines now have a blanchard grind which frankly works much better anyway, and I love it! Release your self from the tyranny of polishing your tools and consider this unfortunate incident an opportunity to move in a new direction.

Buy a new top for a few swirls? As noted most of my machines are now "factory swirled" by choice. Perhaps send it out to be blanchard ground?

[Carroll Courtney]

Robert I really don't see a problem other than losing the new look.While the ROS was not the way to go,its not the end of the world for the top.I would start w/600gr wet/dry sand paper(auto supply) and some minerial spirts then work my way up cleaning between grits.Once the shine comes back then alittle wax and a new set of rules for the assistance----Carroll

[Brendan Plavis]

I hear helper blood cleans it out very well....

Second to that, Emery cloth, or have the helper pay to have it re-ground..... he wont do that again....

[Van Huskey]

Take some time, relax, get over the initial horror and accept that when you put enough wood through the saw the wood will scratch it also, CI is soft.

Its a good thing to obsess over taking care of a tool, going too far will prevent you from actually ever using it. Short of Blanchard grinding the top (MUCH better than when it came from Grizzly and a darn bit flatter) my suggestion would be an inline sander run parallel to the blade, you could even build a jig to run in the miter slot, this would give you a uniform scratch pattern that you could get as fine as you are willing to spend the time on and just it will look like the scratches that will be there once you have cut a lot of wood anyway. I would submit there isn't anything you can do (short of a new top) to get back to the as new finish that wouldn't cost more than a new top. I am anal but you sir have me whipped! This would be a good time to cut a piece of hardboard to lay over the TS so you can use it for table space without fear of problems.


Failing all this just grab a Miracle Eraser from the box n the background and it should fix everything right up... :D

[Robert gree]

he got on it with 80 grit on the ROS. im thinking of going back with 600 grit on the ROS? then polish with my high speed rotary and some compound and call it done.

While sanding is wd-40 sufficient or should i use another product for lubrication?

[johnny means]

Just a thought. I assume the saw is a Grizzly because you didn't want to waste a lot of money. Some might consider replacing a perfectly good top a waste of money.

A little sawdust should hide those impeferfections;).

[Will Overton]

Wd 40 is fine.

[Robert gree]

Just a thought. I assume the saw is a Grizzly because you didn't want to waste a lot of money. Some might consider replacing a perfectly good top a waste of money.

A little sawdust should hide those impeferfections;).

saw is a grizzly because its a solid product, and i did not see the advantage to powermatic delta and other brands.

i do with it was cheap though, ran me 2500 to the door. Saw is a Grizzly G0605x1

[Robert gree]

Wd 40 is fine.


Ok plan is once i get the new compressor to just hit the top with some 1000 grit on a inline sander and call it done. Thanks guys for bringing me back to reality a good bit

[Chip Lindley]

I understand the compulsion to rid the top of those swirls and bad scratches. If the helper does not know better, educate him!

What worries me, is that *brown* patina! What is that? Residue of the cosmoline? If so, that top needs a deep cleaning with mineral spirits or even lacquer thinner. Then proceed with the abrasives.

[george wilson]

Get rid of the idiot helper. If he has so little imagination to do something like that,he's beyond hope.

There is nothing wrong with keeping your things nice. I do it. It goes with the territory of becoming a good craftsman.

I went to look at a new saw a guy had. It had a DEEP,over 1/16" at least,cut in the top from the front wheel of a belt sander that his idiot helper was tracking the belt on while it was on his saw. The owner ordered him to stop that. The response was " It ain't going to hurt it". The owner said he didn't want it damaged anyway. How some guys can be so stupid I can't imagine.

Now,you've got to polish out that mess,and it's going to be a big job to polish the whole saw top.

Re: Blanchard grind: the Blanchard grind was used on OLD machines because it was the CHEAPEST,and LEAST ACCURATE form of grinding. +- .003". The new surface grinds are done with a full width wheel which is precision dressed before each grind. It is much more accurate and nicer in every way than the Blanchard ground tops that you'd see on old Deltas,etc.

You will have to use IN LINE sanding strokes,and go accurately in line over the whole top to restore it. The worst will be getting rid of the coarse swirls.

[johnny means]

Re: Blanchard grind: the Blanchard grind was used on OLD machines because it was the CHEAPEST,and LEAST ACCURATE form of grinding. +- .003". The new surface grinds are done with a full width wheel which is precision dressed before each grind. It is much more accurate and nicer in every way than the Blanchard ground tops that you'd see on old Deltas,etc.


Actually, blanchard grinding produces a superior surface for woodworking. The textured surface reduces the contact area between the work piece and the table, thus reducing stiction. Blanchard grinding can also be done with tolerances within 1000ths of an inch. If you need further proof of its superiority just visit any Felder, Minimax, Griggio, Altendorf, or Martin showrooms and you will see nothing but Blanchard ground tables. I'm pretty sure $20,000+ machines don't come with shiny, pretty tops for a reason and cost isn't that reason.

[Van Huskey]

Re: Blanchard grind: the Blanchard grind was used on OLD machines because it was the CHEAPEST,and LEAST ACCURATE form of grinding. +- .003". The new surface grinds are done with a full width wheel which is precision dressed before each grind. It is much more accurate and nicer in every way than the Blanchard ground tops that you'd see on old Deltas,etc.

.


A good rotary grinder (Blanchard is a trade name) has no problem with .001 tolerances! Powermatics custom PM2000/66 program used Blanchard grinding specifically because of the higher tolerances and many like the finish. I think the biggest current issue with CI TS tops is lack of seasoning before the grind.

[Rick Markham]

Get rid of the idiot helper. If he has so little imagination to do something like that,he's beyond hope.

There is nothing wrong with keeping your things nice. I do it. It goes with the territory of becoming a good craftsman.

I went to look at a new saw a guy had. It had a DEEP,over 1/16" at least,cut in the top from the front wheel of a belt sander that his idiot helper was tracking the belt on while it was on his saw. The owner ordered him to stop that. The response was " It ain't going to hurt it". The owner said he didn't want it damaged anyway. How some guys can be so stupid I can't imagine.

Now,you've got to polish out that mess,and it's going to be a big job to polish the whole saw top.

Re: Blanchard grind: the Blanchard grind was used on OLD machines because it was the CHEAPEST,and LEAST ACCURATE form of grinding. +- .003". The new surface grinds are done with a full width wheel which is precision dressed before each grind. It is much more accurate and nicer in every way than the Blanchard ground tops that you'd see on old Deltas,etc.

You will have to use IN LINE sanding strokes,and go accurately in line over the whole top to restore it. The worst will be getting rid of the coarse swirls.

I'd put a 60 grit ROS swirl mark on your helpers rear quarters before showing him the door, JK about the swirl mark... The LOML almost lost her "girlfriend" status for leaving a sweaty coke can on the top of my table saw... and mine is just a Ridgid 3612 LOL.

I spent years as a chef, my tools were my life, I learned early that I have to be the one to respect and care for them. No one else would! My employees knew, that if they didn't ask if they could borrow a tool, or if I caught them using it improperly, it was an A.. chewing, and possibly their job. Educate the man or send him packing!

[george wilson]

Today's Blanchards might be better than they USED to be,for .003" tolerance is about all old Deltas et.al. had.

[Robert gree]

I'd put a 60 grit ROS swirl mark on your helpers rear quarters before showing him the door, JK about the swirl mark... The LOML almost lost her "girlfriend" status for leaving a sweaty coke can on the top of my table saw... and mine is just a Ridgid 3612 LOL.

I spent years as a chef, my tools were my life, I learned early that I have to be the one to respect and care for them. No one else would! My employees knew, that if they didn't ask if they could borrow a tool, or if I caught them using it improperly, it was an A.. chewing, and possibly their job. Educate the man or send him packing!

He's gone. Once i told him i needed him this friday for about 2 hours (was going to let him inline sand the top) he came back with the following. "man its just a piece of steel with a blade its going to get messed up let it go i did you a favor and got you over the hump" :mad::(

really liked this kid to hes 18 and was showing a awesome interest in the hobby. I use the term kid loosely as im only 20 myself. Better hes gone now before i get the new jointer and bandsaw.

[Rick Markham]

Oh to be 18 again LOL, it's ok man, there are plenty of folks hungry for the chance to learn the trade ;) Just make sure you educate them from the beginning that taking care of the tools is a top priority. I agree that it is a tool, and you shouldn't sweat it getting scuffed up and marked from use, but regular wear (character) vs. a buffoon with a 60grit running around gluing things on your table saw are two different things. It's different if it's your own buffoonery (is that even a word) :D

[george wilson]

It IS difficult kicking yourself in the duff,and it can really twist your knee,too:).

[Robert gree]

Oh to be 18 again LOL, it's ok man, there are plenty of folks hungry for the chance to learn the trade ;) Just make sure you educate them from the beginning that taking care of the tools is a top priority. I agree that it is a tool, and you shouldn't sweat it getting scuffed up and marked from use, but regular wear (character) vs. a buffoon with a 60grit running around gluing things on your table saw are two different things. It's different if it's your own buffoonery (is that even a word) :D

Very true, His mother asked me to let him help in the shop to try to get him away from the crowd he was running with. I told him once he gains respect hes welcome back to the shop to finish the mantel for his mother or i will complete it for him.

[Rick Markham]

Good on you Robert! Maybe he will reconsider, or maybe he won't. Regardless ya did the right thing

[george wilson]

The kid needs to be made to attend Karate classes with a good master. They teach respect as much as anything else. Or,maybe a stint in the Army.

I had this kid's mother call me when I was toolmaker in Williamsburg. She told me in glowing terms how good a son he was,etc.. He wanted to "apprentice" under me. Well,a few days later,this guy shows up. He had long,very ugly,frazzled,dirty blonde dreadlocks,and the stupidest outfit on you'd ever hope not to see. The men in the yard stared at him as he came through to my shop.

This idiot proceeded to tell me(an ex 6 year teacher) that he just didn't need school IN HIS LIFE right now. I thought"When will you need it,when you're 40?"

Needless to say,
I didn't offer any apprentice work,and he never came back.

Another time,I was in a music store owned by a guy I know. This young hippie was passed out on a tarp on the floor behind the counter,sleeping off a drunk. The owner said the guy had taken a course in guitar making somewhere. He was hoping the guy could learn something from me so that he could be able to do repair work in the music shop. STAY AWAY from any young guy who is showing any sign of being a jerk.

I got a call from party boy some days later. He wanted to learn,says he,and also said "I wasn't getting any younger". I was in my late 40's,IIRC. I wasn't about to let this guy near my shop.

Sure enough,some months later,to further his woodworking skills,the guy had taken a job in a cabinet shop,where he injured his finger on a disc sander,and was trying to SUE THE OWNER. Bear this in mind,please. any machine is dangerous,and you are taking a big chance that could ruin your life.

[Greg Peterson]

Glad you gave him an opportunity to return. Ball is in his court.

I suspect that it is the lack of respect for your tools rather than the damage that bothers you most. Accidents will happen and tools will develop personality as a result. You trusted this person to care for your saw while you were not there and he failed.

The cast iron can be cleaned up. The trust you need to have in your helper may prove more challenging. Good luck.

[Neal Clayton]

could be worse, i've found my helper sanding trim around doors and transoms....with oiled bronze finishes....without taping the hinges off. made the bottom half of one look like a shiny new nickel.

also left an alcohol soaked rag on a window sill when he left one day after cleaning the glass on said window, when he knew the sill and window both were finished with shellac. needless to say, the window was welded shut against the sill when we came back the next day.

but i think the incessant shouting from those two days broke him of 'stupid', at least for the most part ;).

on the plus side, now he knows how to repair/re-blend shellac finishes and re-darken brass hardware with those acidic brass darkening chemicals.

[Stephen Cherry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HvEw5k09R8&feature=related

This process looks pretty crude, but it makes for an extremely flat surface. Looks pretty good also.

[Tom Rick]

I get in used tools that have been rough sanded to get off rust on occasion.

To get them back in order I set up with a hard sanding block, wet/dry paper and WD40.

Wet the whole top with the WD and hand sand with the block in one direction over the whole top.
Switch 90% and sand out again.
Finish in stock feed direction.
Rag off the grit often.

For scratched up tops I start with 60 or so and move finer till I am happy with the surface.

It sounds improbable but you can flatten and remove scratches over the whole top in short order if you put some muscle towards the project.

I just finished a large BS table & was able to pull out a bunch of RO swirls and depressions where someone bore down with a sander trying to get rust off.
A precision rule now shows no light on this top.

I don't take it as OCD on your part.
Tools, including rifles bother me if they bear marks of being abused.
"Honest wear" in one thing abuse another

[Rick Markham]

+1 "Ya can't fix stupid!"

[Jim Becker]

Actually, blanchard grinding produces a superior surface for woodworking. The textured surface reduces the contact area between the work piece and the table, thus reducing stiction.

Agree. Totally. Both my 14" J/P and the cast iron top of my slider have this grind and it's a blessing when working with wide stock, especially when face jointing. I've done that on another wide machine with a shiny flat top and I could barely move the material once it was flat!

[Robert gree]

Agree. Totally. Both my 14" J/P and the cast iron top of my slider have this grind and it's a blessing when working with wide stock, especially when face jointing. I've done that on another wide machine with a shiny flat top and I could barely move the material once it was flat!

I once visited a older gentleman's shop. He had a 36" jointer he made custom bar tops. I got to work a fair bit with him and got to run a bar top on the jointer, i could not move it. I called him over and he flipped a light switch. He had drilled and tapped holes in the bed and basically turned the jointer bed into a air hockey table of sorts. Hundreds of pounds of wood glided like like a 2x2.

This got me thinking instead of having to plumb all the air lines why not drill 3/16 dimples in the top like a golf ball.

[Doug Carpenter]

Maybe this is a case of an over zelous kid that wanted to do right.

Only the op knows for sure.

Of course he could have wiped it up right away and we wouldn't be taliking about this.

evertime time I have gone out of town my employees break something. and know one ever knows anything about it.:confused:

Good help is hard to find.

[Curt Harms]

on the jointer beds--looks like wide shallow corduroy. I was wondering "what in the world??". Then i found out that high end Italian machines have similarly ground beds. It helps with moving heavy stock. I'll bet the "air hockey table" idea is more effective, though. :cool:

[Ronald Blue]

Blanchard grinding is capable of far better the +/- .003. If that's the best they did then it was either an operator issue or the chuck was in dire need of resurfacing. When I was in metal working we routinely ground to within .0005. the secret is you redress the wheel for a finish grind.

[Aaron Wingert]

Sorry to hear of that happening to your saw. I'm a little OCD about my tools too, and I assure you that those swirl marks would drive me insane. Probably not to the point of considering replacing the top, but I'd be looking for a way to make it look more uniform. For this reason, most people aren't allowed to borrow my tools because nobody will respect them and take care of them the way I will.

As for cleaning the staining and rust, I've had fair results with synthetic steel wool and WD40. I've had even better results with TopSaver and synthetic steel wool. That stuff works great.