Shaky grinder, Geiger or Wolverine?

[David Hostetler]

I know what Don's answer to this is, but I wanted owners input on this.

I have an 8" full speed grinder (per OneWay's instructions), which I swapped the OEM wheels with the Norton white oxide wheels. However now the grinder that was smooth as a baby's backside now tries dancing off the bench (I have it on a mount board and clamp it to the bench...).

I have a pretty much full on Wolverine setup, and am wondering, if I want to eliminate any runout in the wheels (which is visible in the left wheel), would I be better off getting Don Geigers "Dressing and Truing Solution", or the Wolverine Dressing Jig?

What do you owners say?

[Joe Bradshaw]

David, I have both the Oneway wheel dressing jig and Don Geigers wheel dresser. Don's is far and away the best and easy to use.

[David Hostetler]

David, I have both the Oneway wheel dressing jig and Don Geigers wheel dresser. Don's is far and away the best and easy to use.

I like the look of the design that Don came up with... I just wanted clarification...

My big concern was that the Oneway jig connected solidly to the Wolverine jig bits, and I was wondering if that stability helped or not...

I am honestly trying to get my order in to Don, but was just checking myself... Thanks...

[Lance kanaby]

David, I too have both the Oneway wheel dressing jig and Don Geiger's wheel dresser. Don's is far and away the best and easy to use.

[Sean Hughto]

Both work and both yield a good result. I find Don's much easier and much much quicker to set and use.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

David,
Shakey wheels may be out of balance. Truing them may not balance them. That's why One Way sells their balancing system. Using that when you install wheels then truing with their diamond dresser will keep the wheels in balance.
fmr

[Don Meyer]

I have Don Geigers truing system and also followed his advise to replace the plastic bushings that came with my Norton 3X wheel with drill bushings from McMaster Carr. I get a near mirror finish on my gouges using his system.

[David Hostetler]

I have Don Geigers truing system and also followed his advise to replace the plastic bushings that came with my Norton 3X wheel with drill bushings from McMaster Carr. I get a near mirror finish on my gouges using his system.

Do tell about the bushings. The Norton plastic bushings I think may be part of the problem...

Yeah, I was planning on grabbing OneWays Balancing setup... I want my grinder as smooth as possible... Even if it IS a cheap Ryobi...

[Richard Madden]

I remember having a lot of shaking when I first put Norton 3X wheels on my grinder and I thought I was going to need to balance them. I never did, but at some time I needed the wire wheel for something and when I reinstalled the grinder wheel it ran much smoother. Seems I tightened the nut too much. After playing with both sides got it running nice and smooth. Although I haven't done it, I think the idea of changing out the plastic bushings is a good one.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I know what Don's answer to this is, but I wanted owners input on this.

I have an 8" full speed grinder (per OneWay's instructions), which I swapped the OEM wheels with the Norton white oxide wheels. However now the grinder that was smooth as a baby's backside now tries dancing off the bench (I have it on a mount board and clamp it to the bench...).

I have a pretty much full on Wolverine setup, and am wondering, if I want to eliminate any runout in the wheels (which is visible in the left wheel), would I be better off getting Don Geigers "Dressing and Truing Solution", or the Wolverine Dressing Jig?

What do you owners say?

David the answer depends a lot on what is the real problem, if the wheel is just out of round then dressing the wheel round might be all that's needed.

If the wheels material is not exactly evenly dense material then just getting it round won't do the trick.

Also if the disks that hold the wheels are not keeping the wheel exactly at 90° then dressing the wheel will not help.

The Oneway balancing set would be required for these last two problems.

For just dressing, any wheel dresser could do the job, from a carborundum stick to a diamond dresser and more complicated sets might be making it easier for those that aren't able to use the regular dressers that have always done the job ;)

Have fun and take care :)
Leo Van Der Loo

[Mark Hubl]

David,

I will be the first to say that Norton's product is in need of some quality upgrades. I recently bought some 3X wheels to replace my stock white wheels. Same problem. The Norton bushings were junk. The wheels would not run true. My stock white wheels were not perfect, but way better. I bought the oneway balancing system to salvage the wheels. It worked very well. Would recommend the balancing system it works as described, as far as the Norton product, I will look elsewhere next time.

I also have the Wolverine Diamond system. McMaster and Carr sells something similar to Gieger, you may want to check that out as well.

[Don Geiger]

David,

I will be the first to say that Norton's product is in need of some quality upgrades. I recently bought some 3X wheels to replace my stock white wheels. Same problem. The Norton bushings were junk. The wheels would not run true. My stock white wheels were not perfect, but way better. I bought the oneway balancing system to salvage the wheels. It worked very well. Would recommend the balancing system it works as described, as far as the Norton product, I will look elsewhere next time.

I also have the Wolverine Diamond system. McMaster and Carr sells something similar to Gieger, you may want to check that out as well.

Please realize, the wheel dresser you mention that is in the McMaster-Carr catalog (and several other machinist's catalogs) is a Geiger dresser, but it is the earlier model (introduced in 1975) that only works on tool rests from 1" to 2" (MAX) front to back.

In 2006 I designed one for woodturners to work on tool rests 3" front to back. I specifically designed this product to work directly on the the Wolverine platform tool rest which is 3" front to back. The 3" model places the fulcrum point very close to the wheel and has increased mass (1.75 lbs). The 3" model is not currently in any catalogs. Both models are available directly from me.


Don Geiger

[Mark Hubl]

Good to know Don.

[Don Geiger]

Please realize, the wheel dresser you mention that is in the McMaster-Carr catalog (and several other machinist's catalogs) is a Geiger dresser, but it is the earlier model (introduced in 1975) that only works on tool rests from 1" to 2" (MAX) front to back.

In 2006 I designed one for woodturners to work on tool rests 3" front to back. I specifically designed this product to work directly on the the Wolverine platform tool rest which is 3" front to back. The 3" model places the fulcrum point very close to the wheel and has increased mass (1.75 lbs). The 3" model is not currently in any catalogs. Both models are available directly from me.


Don Geiger

I have attached a photo to help explain the differences in the two Geiger wheel dressers.

The one pictured on the left is the 3" version.
The middle one and the the one on the right is the 2" and 1" version. It can be flipped over to the side needed (1" or 2").

Don

[Justin Stephen]

Could someone provide a part number for the McMaster drill bushings to replace the crappy Norton bushings?

Thanks!

[Thom Sturgill]

Could someone provide a part number for the McMaster drill bushings to replace the crappy Norton bushings?

Thanks!
I think this one will (http://www.mcmaster.com/#8491a562/=7cdnbg) work (Part no 8491A562) - at least I'm going to order some. BTW, glueing the inserts together seems to help.

[David Hostetler]

I think this one will (http://www.mcmaster.com/#8491a562/=7cdnbg) work (Part no 8491A562) - at least I'm going to order some. BTW, glueing the inserts together seems to help.

I am going to have to measure up the shaft on my grinder to verify the diameter, but that looks awfully promising... I use all the bushings from the Norton set, is that 5/8"? I thought it was 1/2".

From what I can tell, if it's 1/2 shaft, then I would need part #8491A561 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#press-fit-drill-bushings/=7ceifl), does that look right?

[Thom Sturgill]

I have the Delta 8" VS - according to Woodcraft the shaft is 5/8"

[Don Geiger]

Dear Fellow woodturners:

McMaster Carr's site as follows list a whole array of headless press-fit drill bushings. http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/2599/=7cf9a9

The catalog page is: 2582

The part numbers i use are as follows:

8491A562 5/8" i.d. X 1" o.d. X 1" long

8491A564 3/4" i.d. X 1" o.d. X 1" long (these fit the large Baldor grinders)

If neither of these fit your needs go the site.

NOTE: Once these are installed you will still need to trues the wheels so they are concentric to the axle.


Good luck!


Sincerely,
Don Geiger

[Justin Stephen]

Thanks for the part numbers all. Much appreciated.

Like others have experienced, replacing the factory course grit wheels on my VS 8" grinder with an 80 grit Norton has resulted in a substantial wobble. The plastic rings that came with the wheel did not even fit the shaft with one being way too large and the next smaller one being too small. I had to remove some material with a light circular file to get it to fit. I did not think about gluing the rings together for additional stability.

[David Hostetler]

Well, I got with Don and got his dresser on the way. Thanks Don.

I need to get the bushings, but I need to verify the size I need. Best I can tell it is 5/8".

I totally agree that the Norton product is severely lacking in quality control. Particularly in the manner of adjustability. Simply put, there is too much slop in the bushings. For the price of these things, they ought to include at the very least aluminum bushings for each size. My OE gray stones were actually dead on, but with these Nortons, you can see a visible runout of the wheel, I am reasonably positive that the runout is the cause of the shaking. Which is actually keeping me from wanting to sharpen my turning tools, and in turn keeping me from turning... So you can see why I am trying to fix this...

As far as I know the Nortons are the only white oxide stones on the market these days though. Are there higher quality alternatives?

I think I can grab some bushings for a LOT less $$ at my local Ace Hardware store, I seem to recall the 1" OD x 5/8" ID x 1" L machine bushings there for about $2.99 each. (Most likely varies by store since they are independents...) I will get them and get them installed, true up the wheels and see if the shake goes away, if not I will grab the Wolverine balance system. I doubt I will need to go that far though...

[Thom Sturgill]

It would be nice if Norton would include better bushings. Even a set of solid plastic bushings would be an improvement, and I'd bet that the vast majority of their sales of 6 and 8in wheels all need 5/8" holes. I would even be happy if the vendors would wise up and offer better bushings as an option. Of course the BEST solution would be for Norton to just get over it and offer wheels with a proper 5/8" arbor hole like the one that came with the grinder. At any rate, I have a pair of bushings coming from McMaster-Carr ($25 w shipping) that will last as long as the grinder. Now I need to decide whether that was a waste of money and I should have paid $70+shipping and bought the balancer. I suspect that with the right shims the balancer is not needed, but I need to find someone in the our club that has it so that I can compare.

[David Hostetler]

FWIW, my Geiger's Dressing and Truing Solution arrived today. Don really over packages these things. I felt like I was 12 years old again at Christmas, My brother gave me a Christmas present in a nice big box, that had a slightly smaller box, that had a slightly smaller box.... You get the idea, by the time I got to it, the present was something like a baseball or something like that...

Now I must admit, the intent obviously was content protection, but after FINALLY getting this thing out of the packaging, I don't think a nuclear warhead could harm this thing... To call this thing stout is an understatement. I have owned International Harvester trucks that weren't built as solidly...

I haven't tried it yet (going to wait to get the bushings, THEN I will try it out). Now that I see how it relates to the grinder, and to the platform, it is ever so obvious how this thing is intended to work, so the only question is, will the truing it up, and fixing the stupid bushings make the grinder stop shaking...

[Doug Thompson]

You can turn a bushing out of wood that works just fine... get a snug fit on the wheel/shaft. Go with Don's because it's easy to use, the Oneway takes more time to learn how it's done.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

David I do remember getting grinder wheels with lead centers that were the size of the shaft you ordered the wheel for, but as always someone greedy found a way to get away with a cheeper way of doing things, and so we got a stack of bushings in the wheels that you should fit all sizes, still worked as all they do is keep the wheels kind of centered on the shaft, and yes you do need to dress the wheel, no problem.
Then again a cheeper way to build grinders, as now they would stamp from sheet metal the flanges that used to be machined to keep the wheels square to the shaft,and no they aren't doing the job like the machined ones.

Then another problem, again greed and competition give us wheels that are not equally dense all around, and now we have a real problem, and what is the best way to address this???

Just dressing isn't going to get around the wobbling wheel, just straightening the wheel does not center it nor does it take care of the off center weight in the wheel.

So you really do need to take care of two things at once to be able to get a good running grinder, first is the taking away the wobble with good flanges and the centering with a dresser, if there is still a vibration then a weight balancing is needed to take care about that one.

So you see a dresser is only a partially cure, as it does not cure the wobble nor the unequal density of the wheel, just the centering part.

A unit that centers and straightens the wheel and also can balance is able to do all of that at once.

So I hope you don't need to straighten and balance your grinder wheel. as the fancy dresser isn't going to be able to do the job ;-))

[David Hostetler]

No discernable side x side play in my grinder wheels. That was my first thought. But there is a distinct out of round to the wheel. I am quite confident the problem is with the Norton wheels as I have the OEM wheels still, I ran the grinder with the gray wheels first, it ran smooth as silk, I swapped the Nortons in and go the shakes, I swapped OE back in smooth as silk...

I am concerned about the density variation issue, but figure, that I will get the shaft / bushing taken care of, and get the thing ROUND in the first place, THEN worry about balance if I have to. The out of round / offset from the axle will absolutely cause an out of balance condition on the wheel, so it seems pointless to balance before truing the wheel.

IF I need to I will order up the Wolverine balancer for the wheel...

This is truly a pain in the tail. I almost regret getting the Norton wheels, but I don't know of any higher quality vendor of grinding wheels.