New "Old" tools

[Keith E Byrd]

I need some help! I was given a box of 28 lathe tools of all shapes and sizes. My brother-in-law had these tools in his garage for 50 years. He received them from his dad who was an avid turner when he passed away. I am told that some of these tools were from his dad's early days and most are probably before turn of the century (1900). I have examined a few of them very closey and can find no marks, brands etc on them. He may have made some of them. There are 2 in the box that are just flat steel ready to have an end ground into it. He apparently made all the handles - many of brazilian cherry.
Can anyone give some advice on how to determine their age and quality? Also I need sharpening guidance.

[John Keeton]

Keith, without getting into some type of metallurgical testing, I doubt there is any way to truly tell the quality of the tool short of sharpening it and using it. You will quickly find out if they will hold an edge. Same for age - without markings one would only be guessing.

I think you can count on them being carbon steel and you will need to be careful and not get them hot and losing the temper. And, there is always the possibility that brittle metal was used in making some of them. That could present a danger to you as they could break during use. Hopefully, you will get some feel for that while sharpening them.

I would suggest a slow speed grinder and a Wolverine sharpening system with the original Vari-grind jig for some of the gouges.

Hopefully, others will offer additional comments to help you.

[Thom Sturgill]

Kieth, they are surely carbon steel as John said. That means that for turning they will take a sharper edge, but not hold it as long as modern HHS. Also might tend to break easier and lose their temper as John said. If some of those handles are nice you might think of salvaging them and using one or two with a nice new blade. Otherwise, I'd probably clean them up and display them for the most part.

[Karl Card]

my first set of tools were carbon and yes they were easier to sharpen but id have to sharpen them during turning a simple pen...

Moved up to HSS and love it... Now my next step is to move up to a better HSS set. Not all HSS is the same hardness. Usually if the tool does not state the hardness you can be sure it is not the hardest steel..
Good HSS steel will have hardness code either in the ad or on the tool itself.

[Jerry Marcantel]

On the above answers, one in particular about brittleness, how do you determine if one is brittle?????
I also went to http://arwarnerco.com/index.html, looking at high speed steel, and the Materials page has a list of their metals with the respective hardness range for each individual HHS....
What hardness range are good lathe tools made??.... Jerry (in Tucson)

[Thom Sturgill]

On the above answers, one in particular about brittleness, how do you determine if one is brittle?????
I also went to http://arwarnerco.com/index.html, looking at high speed steel, and the Materials page has a list of their metals with the respective hardness range for each individual HHS....
What hardness range are good lathe tools made??.... Jerry (in Tucson)

That's a difficult question as it relates to the alloy and tempering process. Doug Thompson's site says his steel 'CPM 10V® (A-11) a powder metal manufactured by Crucible Materials Corporation with a 9.75% vanadium content' has a hardness of 60-62 Rockwell (I assume that's HRC). Henry Taylor uses M2 steel at over 60 HRC, and P&N says their M2 is between 60-63 HRC. Packard claims their ASP2030 (powdered metal) are between 65-67 HRC while their M2 is between 62-64 HRC.

Carbon steel might come in as low as 40-45 HRC.

[Dave Ogren]

Keith,

If you want to know what they are take them to a good old machine shop or a heat treat plant and they should be able to "spark" them.
With a clean grinding wheel the sparks of each different type of steel have different sparks.

I wouldn't bother, just buy new high speed or Thompsons.

Good Luck,

Dave

[Leo Van Der Loo]

HSS has been used for at least 70 years that I know off, but wasn't used much for wood cutting tools and only much more recently has become the standard metal for turning tools.

Mostly skews and spindle gouges where uses as lathe tools, with the hook-tool used for hollowing, and those were carbon steel normally.

The carbon steel cuts very nicely but dulls a little quicker, the biggest problem is with sharpening on a grinder, as you will very easily overheat the very thin edge and loose the hardness of the steel, if you have a water-cooled wheel to sharpen, I would just use the tools and sharpen them that way, you will find quick enough if these tools are worth keeping.

To find what kind of steel it is, the easiest way is to hold the tool against the grinder and look at the sparks that come off it, a dark red solid spark would indicate HSS, anything else is not HSS.

Carbon steel will generally give you a spark that burns up in the air and is a much lighter color, but you don't have to know exactly what it is, it is either HSS or it is not.

I have a couple of carbon steel skews, and they cut as well as a HSS skew if not better, I was given them, I would not go out and buy carbon steel tools this day and age, good quality turning tools are not very expensive considering the time and sheer quantity of wood you can cut with a tool before it is all used up.

[Dick Strauss]

Keith,
You can get some idea of the hardness of the tools. You'll want to use a good metal file to try to remove metal from the tools. If the file skates across the tools and removes no metal, then the tools are harder than the files (probably Rc 60 or so). If the metal comes off with some effort, the tools are probably in the 50 range. If the metal comes off quite readily, you can assume it isn't too hard (in the 40s).

Carbon steel can be brittle if it is above a hardness of about Rc 55 so it is not recommended for turning. They can shatter if you get a catch with the tool (thus the reason for not wanting to use files as turning tools).

Take care,
Dick

[Keith E Byrd]

Gentlemen, thank you all for the insight. I was told that they were very high quality steel but being a novice in this area I didn't know what that would mean. I will try some of the techniques you provided and see if I can determine what I have!

Following some of your comments.
If it gets too hot and turns red on the edge - can you just grind past the blued part and regain the temper?
I sharpened a couple of the gouges and skews(did not get them too hot!) - they sharpened very nicely and on a test turn they cut well.
As far as sparks - they gave off a reddish pink kind of spark. Not sure what shade of red I am looking for?
I ran a file across a couple and got no metal grindings.
I also found a couple of names or on the steel.
I found a few with a buck or stag head and the name BROS STEEL
Another was stamoed with USA WARRANTED CAST STEEL
Another was stamped with ? & IJ WHITE (I think it is IJ)
One was stamped with T. H. WITHERBY
Does any of this mean anything?

Thanks.