sliders vs sliding tables

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Another musing... I have a unisaw with an Exaktor sliding table...Since adding the add on table, I really feel I have improved the safety, accuracy and convenience of the saw. It does, however, at times make me wish for a saw designed with a sliding table from the start which got me thinking...
For those of you with real sliders... Is the biggest difference between an add on and a slider the extra space between the blade and the sliding table (about 8-10 inches for an add on) I suspect, judging from the price differences, that the sliders also have a much sturdier sliding mechanism. Otherwise, it would seem to me that there should be a market for someone to make an add on slider for common saws like the unisaw or PM66 which would replace the cast iron tabletop (since the trunions are mounted to the cabinet, it should be easy to design a replacement!) Might even be a market to buy used Unisaws, convert them and rehab them and sell them for $4000...

[Joe Jensen]

I recently switched to a Felder 700 series slider after 30 years with cabinet saws. The Felder is expensive and I suspect the slider is a good bit of the cost. Mine has a 9ft stroke so I can have a fence on one end and a clamp on the other and still cut 8 ft. I used a dial indicator to adjust it and it holds to between .004-.005" above the cast iron table top for the entire stroke and it is within .001" of perfect slide to blade the entire travel. I'm stunned at this precision. It's frankly hard to believe. I think a big part of why it cuts so well is that the wood only contacts the blade when the teeth cut at the leading edge, and the toe out from the blade is very tiny. I have my set at .001" on a 12" blade.

You might be able to source slide mechanisms from some factory in china. I suspect something that would be the length of mine would have to cost at least $1000, could be lots more. But I know the factories there are making sliders now. As to retrofitting the Unisaw, that wouldn't be hard but you'd still be 10" from the blade unless you got radical and cut the cast iron top.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Yup, I'm not considering retrofitting mine at the moment.. but it does seem that rather than just offering add on tables that replace the wing on a conventional saw, someone ought to offer an add on table that does just that... replaces the whole top! For a cabinet saw I should think that would be relatively easy-- just more $. It sounds like the precision (and holding the precision) is certainly the high point of your Felder. The Exaktor and Excalibur add on tables are precise, but they aren't as heavy as I'd like to enable really clamping things down. Mine's pretty short also, so I can't comment on precision in the longer models which would more closely approximate your Felder.
Thanks for your input. I might have to start saving my change so I can upgrade as I reach retirement age and spend more time in the shop.

[Joe Jensen]

I'm an electrical engineer but I'm close to having a double major in mechanical engineering. The longer the slider stroke the harder it is to make it stiff enough to minimize deflection. I can ride mine end to end with minimal deflection and I'm over 230 lbs. It would be a lot easier with a 4ft stroke. I think my slider mechanism weights like 300 lbs and that's all aluminum. and bearings

[Rod Sheridan]

Bill, as Joe indicated the accuracy is incredible, and mine is set up with 0.0012" toe out on a 12" blade also.

The cut is unbelievable, and if I use scoring I can't tell which side was up on veneered or melamine panels.

Some of the differences between the Euro machines and the add on tables are:

- the slider table is very close to the blade

- stiffness and straightness of the slider

- Euro slider doesn't add width to the machine

- if you want an outrigger, it's there, if not it's folded up not taking up shop space

- Euro machine with outrigger can be portable, mine is moved 90 degrees for some operations since I have a small shop, mobility kits are factory designed in.

- Euro sliders can straight line rip solid wood, or use the slider as a ripping guide instead of the ripping fence.

I've looked at the add on sliding tables, they not in the same universe as a Euro slider........Regards, Rod.

[Steve Rowe]

Otherwise, it would seem to me that there should be a market for someone to make an add on slider for common saws like the unisaw or PM66 which would replace the cast iron tabletop (since the trunions are mounted to the cabinet, it should be easy to design a replacement!) Might even be a market to buy used Unisaws, convert them and rehab them and sell them for $4000...

Not to rain on your potential business venture but, why would anyone pay $4K for a modified used Unisaw when you can buy a new format saw that would have the equivalent if not better capabilities for $2999 (i.e. - Hammer K3 for example)?

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Well part of it I can attribute to musings after midnight after working a full day and then on until midnight+ but actually I was more thinking that it would make more sense to sell an add on sliding table with replacement top rather than just an add on sliding table. It seems like Exaktor, Excalibur, Dewalt, Grizzly, Delta, etc. sell quite a few sliding tables ranging in street prices from $400 to $1500.. I have no idea how much a replacement top would run but it would seem to be a big competitive advantage for one of them to offer the top exchange...

Interesting that the K3 is that low... From a safety standpoint IMO, that seems to be the best direction to go.
Clearly tool marketing is a science in itself, but you would think that Delta would have introduced a true sliding table saw along with their latest Unisaw...
Might take some of the wind out of the sales of their rapidly growing SS competition.

[Richard Link]

Bill,

I would agree with the others that the add-on sliding tables aren't in the same universe as a true slider. I used to have a Jessem Mast-R-Slide attached to my sawstop and posted about a direct comparison here (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1399094#poststop). Bottom line was that the Jessem was a sort-of-replacement for a crosscut or miter sled but a true slider is a real change in your workflow. I've never used the sliding table you described and I think its quite a bit more beefy than the Jessem but some of the limitations still apply. Its not only the presence of an outrigger table that helps, its the presence of a long sliding mechanism that maintains almost perfect alignment with the blade.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

The number one primary difference (over weight and engineering) is that the "true" slider has the wagon right up to the blade. On those sliders that support dado blades (MM, for example) there is a very small distance between the edge of the wagon and the blade, but it's not all that meaningful. The add-ons, no matter how good they are, still have the friction of that stationary table between where the sliding table starts and the actual blade location.

Secondary benefits is that many of the sliders that those of us who own them buy have much longer throw, making ripping sheet goods and long boards convenient. Mine is 8'6". The obvious downside is that you need 19' total for a full stroke and some shops will not support that!

[Bill ThompsonNM]

This has been an interesting thread--one thing I didn't realize is that some of the more economical sliders are in the same price range as new unisaws or similar. As I noted in the first post-- I'm convinced and apparently I'm not the only one-- that sliding mechanisms which control the wood and keep you away from that blade are the real safety mechanism of the future. It's probably no surprise that the sawstop didn't originate in Europe. Although I only have a considerably inefficient sliding add on-- it eliminates a lot of exposure and a true slider eliminates even more. Maybe if there were $1500 sliding saws (with expected compromises) they would be even more popular. Hard to compete at the low end with the Ryobi jobsite saw though.

[Rick Potter]

Delta did sell a slider table saw years ago. I toured a pro woodworking shop a few years back and they had one. It was either a 12 or 14" saw, big table. I checked with a local Delta dealer, and they said they could still find a few unsold ones for around $9K.

Rick Potter

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Maybe what sliders really need is a popular TV show where the host makes all sorts of things quick and easy on a slider... or maybe even a full combo machine with mortiser, shaper, jointer, planer....

Or, of course, they could take a hint from the SS ads and advertise to the wives... I have to admit, it would be easier to acquire if the LOML would come up with the idea instead of me...:D

[Joe Jensen]

:cool:I ended up getting a sawstop (before the slider) because of the wife. We stopped at a big WW store to pick up some supplies and as I browsed the large used industrial section, the astute sales guy showed my wife a video of the sawstop. When I was paying, she told me I needed to order one. We ordered it on the spot (I'm not stupid). I've since changed to a slider, and the only thing she wasn't happy about was that it didn't have the sawstop technology.

Maybe tell the salesman to watch for you and your wife next weekend, and then run an errand with her to that store :cool: