Danger, Will Robinson, Danger

[Bruce Seidner]

I just bought an old but very capable 6" Craftsman jointer. It seems to have been a 1979 model and Sears does not have the blade guard replacement that I need. I have not yet looked for compatible stand ins or other replacements.

My question is this. Would someone have removed it because they didn't like or feel the need for it? Basically, I think a guard would be nice but just how dangerous is this to run without the guard, on a scale from 1-10?

[Mitchell Andrus]

Basically, I think a guard would be nice but just how dangerous is this to run without the guard, on a scale from 1-10?

9. I put the jointer right up there with the TS, even with the guard.
.

[glenn bradley]

My dad's very old Rockwell has had a shop-made pork chop since I was a little feller. Not hard to make. Sam Maloof's shop has a shop-made segmented pork chop so it doesn't swing way out in the way I guess. I would be leery of running a jointer without a guard. That's part of the reason I built a planer sled; I didn't like running the too-wide board across the jointer without the guard for doing boards that are wider than your jointer.

P.s. Sorry. Talkative. The coffee musta kicked in ;-)

[Van Huskey]

1-10 I dunno maybe 8. Jointers are a scary lot even with the guard, though worse the wider they are. I would rather run a TS without a guard...

[Andrew Nemeth]

10. There's nothing left to re-attach if you run into a jointer. I actually am quite a bit mote comfortable on a wider jointer becuase they often have longer beds and I don't have to use as much down pressure to properly joint a face. You should be able to make a reasonable guard from wood.

[David Dockstader]

On a scale of 1 - 10, a joiner without a guard needs a bigger scale! I still have a scar on my left pinky where I got careless with a push stick AND a guard. I'll run my table saw without a guard. I have to if I'm doing dadoes. But never a joiner.

[Mike Cruz]

Well, I'm gonna take the other side...kinda.

First of all, you hands should NEVER be directly over the blades...with or without a guard.

Secondly, the fence moves so that you can expose as much or as little blade as you want.

Third, even with a guard, the guard won't protect you from "lagging finger tips" that are absentmindly pushing the wood through.

THAT SAID.... I think that the jointer demands as much if not more respect than any of your big equipment. As my old boss used to say, "You can't make potatos out of potato chips..." That has stuck in my head like glue!

And by all means, I'm not suggesting that you not use a guard. Find one if you can. But a jointer without a guard is not "throw away" material. IMO

[Joey Jarrard]

I would not do it myself. In a shop there is way to much that can go wrong why help out the odds.

[John Mark Lane]

Third, even with a guard, the guard won't protect you from "lagging finger tips" that are absentmindly pushing the wood through.



Preacher, can I give witness!? :)

For many years, I have hated blade guards. I religiously removed them from every tool I bought, and I judged a tool in part by how easy it was to remove the guard.

About 25 years ago, I was running a small-ish plank through my little 4 inch Rockwell jointer, sans guard. As I walked the board up and positioned myself closer to the outfeed table, I moved my right hand back to hold the pressure on the last few inches of the board.

The doctors were not amused at the prospect of having to remove tissue from my thigh to try to patch up my right forefinger. Nor have I ever quite gotten over the sound of the bone as it hit the spinning blade. Kind of a liquid sounding phhhhhzzzzzzzzzzzzzT. I had to hold my bandaged hand up in the air for something like six weeks. People kept thinking I was waving.

The good news is, the shape of my new forefinger is great for picking your nose (not yours, mine). You know how, when you're trying to get in there and get that deeeeep bugger, and the fat on the end of your finger won't quite let your fingernail get a good grip? Well, I don't have that problem. With my pointy fingertip, I can get even the deeeeepest buggers! I've often explained this at parties or dinners. For some reason, every time I start of the topic my wife groans and runs out of the room. :confused:

[Mike Cruz]

Thanks for the visual! :D

Please let me explain my "third" comment. It was not "anti-guard" it was pro-don't-put-your-fingers-there-even-with-a-guard.

Honestly, John, I am very sorry to hear of your accident. I'm glad you can make light of a horrible situation...

[Lee Schierer]

I have to agree with the pro guard enthusiasts, put a guard on that jointer. Take a look at Ebay and do a search for jointer guards. There are several choices, that I found though none specifically for a craftsman, but it shouldn't be hard to adapt one or make your own.

[Rod Sheridan]

Don't use a jointer without a guard, period.

This is the ideal time for you to make a bridge type guard for your jointer, in my opinion they are much better than the old pork chop type guard.

The bridge guard could be made out of wood, nothing fancy is required.

It would have to be able to move straight up and down, perhaps a simple vertical stick, and it would have to move left to right to allow for edge jointing so a simple slot with a knob to lock it in place.

Regards, Rod.

[Trace Beard]

The guy I purchased my first jointer from lost his finger because he removed the guard. I did get a great deal though :-)

[John Pratt]

Scale of 1-10? 10, but there has been occasion when I have used my Jointer without the guard. When I use the rabating ledge I have to remove the guard, but I am very methodical about how I do it.

[Matt Day]

I thoroughly respect my jointer and know what it can doto me if I'm careless. Same with my table saw. I'm not promoting it, but I don't run blade guards on either of them. On the jointer I move the fence to only expose the blade I need to use, and am meticulous and focused when I use the machine.

If you're not comfortable using it without a blade guard (and I think you are by posting this), you should have a blade guard and STILL be extremely careful.

[Alex Leslie]

Very dangerous with no guard. I always use push blocks, even with the guard.

[Will Overton]

Part of your question which seems to have been mostly overlooked is why someone would remove the guard. Aside from rabbeting which was mentioned, face jointing a board wider than a jointer's stated capacity can be achieved by doing half, turn the board and do the other half. The standard style guard has to be removed.

That said, my recommendation is, Do Not Use Your Jointer Without a Guard.

I congratulate those who prefer the challenge of working without a net, (guard). They are obviously very focused, and whether they believe it or not, VERY LUCKY

[Bruce Seidner]

Don't use a jointer without a guard, period.

This is the ideal time for you to make a bridge type guard for your jointer, in my opinion they are much better than the old pork chop type guard.

The bridge guard could be made out of wood, nothing fancy is required.

It would have to be able to move straight up and down, perhaps a simple vertical stick, and it would have to move left to right to allow for edge jointing so a simple slot with a knob to lock it in place.

Regards, Rod.

All ten of my fingers and countless born and as yet born blood corpuscles appreciate the outpouring of technical advice and personal tribulations. With sinus surgery several years ago and better dust control, my nose picking has decreased markedly. (I too try to see a sliver lining in life lessons.)

None the less, I have been looking for examples of the European fence-bridge fence guard and am coming up short. There is a 10" Grizzly that sports one but I am unsure if it sells separately but suspect I could buy the parts from Grizzly.

I will set out later tonight for a more thorough search but if there are some DIY solutions out there I am all about making my own stuff. Thanks in advance.

[Bruce Seidner]

Ok, I see how this works. So there are likely plans out there for these. But it does not look like it is dynamic. Do you raise and set the guard for the thickness of board or is there a spring and some way that pushing on it will raise it. It's hard to tell from the picture.

[John Mark Lane]

Ok, I see how this works. So there are likely plans out there for these. But it does not look like it is dynamic. Do you raise and set the guard for the thickness of board or is there a spring and some way that pushing on it will raise it. It's hard to tell from the picture.


Wow, I like that. It looks like it pivots on the left side of the guard, via a pin/spring mount in that arm piece. And you can lift the whole thing out of the way and rotate it down to the front of the jointer. That's cool. Would love to know where that came from.

[Bruce Seidner]

Wow, I like that. It looks like it pivots on the left side of the guard, via a pin/spring mount in that arm piece. And you can lift the whole thing out of the way and rotate it down to the front of the jointer. That's cool. Would love to know where that came from.


http://www.codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/reviews/

scroll down to the Axminster CT150

and

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-CT1502-150mm-Planer-370404.htm


And a question in return. How does one create one word links instead of cut/pasting whole URL's? I would like to have replied, "The guard is from this review." Guard would be underlined and a click on it would take you to the review.

[John Mark Lane]

http://www.codesmiths.com/shed/workshop/reviews/

scroll down to the Axminster CT150

and

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-CT1502-150mm-Planer-370404.htm


And a question in return. How does one create one word links instead of cut/pasting whole URL's? I would like to have replied, "The guard is from this review." Guard would be underlined and a click on it would take you to the review.

Thanks. Looks like it doesn't work quite the way I imagined. You adjust the cover over to the side to allow room for wood to move next to it for edge jointing. Still, I like my idea -- a pivot point on the right side of the guard, sort of like a traditional jointer guard, but the ability to lift the whole thing out of the way, kind of like some TS guards. I shoulda been a inventor.

[Lee Schierer]

And a question in return. How does one create one word links instead of cut/pasting whole URL's? I would like to have replied, "The guard is from this review." Guard would be underlined and a click on it would take you to the review.

You highlight the one word with your cursor and then click on the create a link tab. It will automatically insert the link in the word. Or when you insert the link and hit OK there will be some text highlighted. You can type in the link name to replace the highlighted text.

[Rod Sheridan]

Ok, I see how this works. So there are likely plans out there for these. But it does not look like it is dynamic. Do you raise and set the guard for the thickness of board or is there a spring and some way that pushing on it will raise it. It's hard to tell from the picture.

Yes, you set the height of the guard over the cutterhead so the work can just be pushed under it.

For edge jointing you set the gap between the end of the guard and the fence a little bit smaller than the wood.

The guard then pushes the wood against the bottom of the fence, keeping your fingers up higher.

The bridge guard is great to use, I really like mine (It's the standard guard on EU machines).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUFKxSMmVv4

The above video shows the guard being used between the 3 and 5 minute mark. (It's the jointer/planer I own).

Regards, Rod.

[Brendan Plavis]

Why is it that it seems that the Euro tools and tool designs are always safer.... :D First they engineer the saws so that Dados cannot be used... and outlaw them..... then they create the confounded guards that act as featherboards too..... dang.... I am surpised OSHA hasnt made things like that mandatory....

[Rod Sheridan]

Why is it that it seems that the Euro tools and tool designs are always safer.... :D First they engineer the saws so that Dados cannot be used... and outlaw them..... then they create the confounded guards that act as featherboards too..... dang.... I am surpised OSHA hasnt made things like that mandatory....

Hi Brendan, I think that it's an approach to working that's more disciplined than our North American attitude.

My Father in Law is a cabinetmaker who obtained his journeyman certification in England in the late forties, and then moved to Canada in the seventies.

He was astounded to see people remove the guard from a tablesaw to make a rebate in the edge of a piece of wood, when there was a shaper in the shop.

You see, in his view, the table saw sawed, and the shaper did edge treatments because they were set up with guards to do those particular jobs safely.

You didn't use machines for things they weren't designed to do safely, and you certainly didn't remove guards from machines.

A very different outlook on how you work, as a trained professional.

I think one of the other issues is that for the most part, in North America we no longer design or produce wood working machinery, so innovation has been left to those who do.

(I'll leave Saw Stop out of the discussion, even though I feel they're the only significant NA innovation in wood working safety in decades).

In my shop 4 pieces of General machinery have now been replaced by 2 pieces of Euro stuff. What a difference.

Oh, the dado isn't illegal in the EU countries, they are sold.

The 2 issues however is that most machines cannot use them because they don't have a guard that works with them, and stacked dado cutters have problems with the mandatory blade brakes.

Regards, Rod.

[Frank Warta]

I know this is maybe a little off topic, but has anyone around here retrofitted a pork-chop style jointer with a custom euro guard? I like them a lot more conceptually and if it was a reasonable task I'd like to switch mine over.

[Brendan Plavis]

Ahh I see... I had read this(posted below) which stated that they were illegal to use on a saw without a permenant guard...

"
Yeap, dado blades are forbidden by law all over the EU on table saws without “permanent guard” (a blade guard that needs the usage of a tool to remove it)...
As you know, the EU safety regulations are more strict and changing very frequently mainly, because the “Unions” are demanding it from the governments…they want the workers to come to work in one piece and come back home in one piece and they don’t care how much it will cost the “Boss” to supply safe machines or how much time is lost because of those safety procedures…
The story starts somewhere at 2000~2001…till then a dado blade was permitted while using an overhead blade guard (“the blade guard must be installed for any operation on the table saw”)...
After accident survey, it was discovered that many “Contact with the blade” happened during the long blade run-down time…so, a new regulation was born “The blade must stop within 10 seconds”...
But stopping the blade so fast created another problem…naturally, the dado blade mass is greater than a 10” blade and the inertia forces (deceleration) involved could cause the opening of the blade Arbor nut so…
No dado blade…most of the new generation table saws are also made with short arbor that will not accommodate dado blade..
On my TS the blade stops in 6 seconds and I’m very happy with this feature…
PS – Pommy, you can buy dado blade in UK it’s just illegal to use it on a table saw with a motor brake…
http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdSrch.cgi/@cSaw%20Blades%20-%20Dado@b::0::user::1,0,0,1: (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdSrch.cgi/@cSaw%20Blades%20-%20Dado@b::0::user::1,0,0,1:):"

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Brendan, I should have mentioned that the saw arbour has two metal pins so the blades cannot spin on the arbour during braking.

A dado cutter such as the Felder type looks more like a shaper cutter, and it has the holes bored in it for the pins of course.

My saw and shaper have the electric blade braking and it's pretty impressive to see it haul a large shaper cutter or 12" saw blade down from full speed in a few seconds.

regards, Rod.

P.S. Is it hot where you live? We're experiencing 30 degree C days right now, which is very hot for this time of year.

[Brendan Plavis]

Ah yea.... very warm... it was about 95F last evening... I am glad I waxed the tools I just derusted... or I would have been very annoyed....

[Bruce Seidner]

The video is very helpful and I have a very solid grasp of what is required. I often get aluminum parts for jigs and bench tools from 80/20 "the industrial erector set". I will have this built up in the near future.

If you have not downloaded their catalog or been to their website I would heartily recommend them.

http://www.8020.net/

They also have an outlet that I frequent

http://stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale

[Rob Russell]

My grandfather was a carpenter and cabinetmaker. He lost a knuckle on a finger to his jointer and it had a guard, so running without a guard isn't something I'd ever do.

[Brendan Plavis]

Ouch! I can see losing a finger... that they can easily mend... but losing a knuckle..... #$!~ that must have hurt...

I walk into things... I dont think I would ever trust myself near a spinning blade that doesnt have a guard, and that eats fingers as a small snack...

[Don Whitten]

Lost my ring finger tip to the bone a couple months ago, heeled up nicely but still have a big dent in the finger tip. This was done with a guard in place, slipped running some small stock thru and walla no tip left, turn things off and head to the CareOne which almost sent me to the emergancy room cause they didn't think they could fix it. I had to explain just burn it to stop the bleeding, nothing to stitch, already had that conversation with the wife when she said I needed to go get stitches. I tried to get her to hold my torch so I could cauterize it, but she wasn't having anything to do with that.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I've never used a tablesaw guard in my 20+ years of woodworking, but I'd never even turn on a jointer without a guard. Tremendous difference.
At my last job, the owners cousin lost a finger to their jointer over 50 years ago. Big old 12" crescent, with a crappy guard.