Batteries changing to Lithium

[Jack Burgess]

Was warned by several clerks NOT to buy any current hand tools - including lawn mower that use Nicad batteries - everything is changing to Lithium - Is this happening now any comments

[John Coloccia]

I don't see NiCd going away anytime soon, although Lithium is the future. There are many different flavors of Lithium based batteries with advantages and disadvantages. On disadvantage is when Lithium Ion batteries are damaged, from physical damage or overheating (overcharging/discharging usually...think shorting it out), they tend to blow up and erupt into a chemical fire. It's generally dangerous to store them fully charged or fully discharged. There are electronics in the drill and charger that will prevent that from happening. Still, I've seen a Lithium Ion battery go, and I don't leave my packs charging unattended. At a minimum, put the charger on a concrete floor or something like that. The good news is they charge quickly. There have been some recent developments with Li-Ion technology, particular from a company called A123, that addresses some of the safety concerns.

They have a great advantage in energy/weight and energy/size. I can show you a pack just a little bigger than my thumb that has as much energy in it as a NiCd pack made with 6 C cells. Now that's impressive! They're also environmentally friendly.

This isn't meant to scare you. When used properly, Lithium Ion batteries are safe, but they don't completely replace NiCd yet and NiCd will be available for sometime to come. In fact, they're getting cheaper and the chemistry is still improving. I believe NiCd still support a much higher discharge rate than LiIon. The biggest drawback to NiCd is they're considered hazardous material, and they're much larger than an equivalent Lithium Ion battery. When cared for properly, though, they outlast Li-Ion...by quite a bit, actually. This should really not be a factor because NO ONE cares for their NiCd batteries properly except maybe a handful of people with proper equipment, knowledge and will. Even they wouldn't do this kind of maintenance on a cordless tool battery, though.

All that said, I probably wouldn't buy a NiCd powered tool if I had the choice simply because the Li Ion is smaller and lighter.

Hows that for a long winded answer to a simple question?

[Van Huskey]

Was warned by several clerks NOT to buy any current hand tools - including lawn mower that use Nicad batteries - everything is changing to Lithium - Is this happening now any comments


It has BEEN happening. BUT, on a lot of the old tools will use the new Lithium batteries, this tends to be the "full" size tools. I have several brands of 18V tools that can use either. If you catch the NiCad tools on closeout it can actually be cost effective to add the batteries as some point later.

[Jack Burgess]

Will the Nicad and Lith be interchangable - can't imagine manuf doing that to save us money

[Jack Burgess]

Thanks, appreciate you insight and knowledge

[Nathan Palenski]

Lithium ion and lithium polymer are great in devices with planned obsolescence, like a laptop or cellphone. In 10 years you probably wont want to use the same laptop you're using now due to advances in both hardware and software. Both give much superior energy density than NiCd or even NiMH. The only problem is the associated halflife with Li-ion. In the worst case its 10 months from manufacturer, in the best its 30. So at best in 5 years it'll hold ~1/4 the charge and thats from manufacture, not when you started using it. If it sits on a boat for 6 months and then on a shelf for 6 more you only get 4 years out of it before you're at the same place. Lithium polymer are better but not by much.

Not saying don't buy them, just be educated about them. Like anything else they're great for the right application and terrible for others.

[Curt Harms]

One of the problems with early NiCad batteries was self discharge. If I didn't use a NiCad drill purchased in the late '90s for a few weeks, the battery would be pretty well self discharged. I'd heard 1% discharge/day. I had two battery packs rebuilt by MTO battery with NiCad cells 3 years ago. The rebuilds were MUCH better about not self discharging. This past Christmas I bought a Bosch kit at Lowes for $199 18 v. drill & impact driver. I charged the batteries when I unpacked them and haven't charged them yet. Of course I haven't used them much either :o but point being they'll hold a charge very well. The 18 v. LiIon is lighter than the 14.4 v. NiCad as well.

[Paul Ryan]

If you check with the battery experts, those that specialize in rebuilding batteries. Most of them recommend a good NiMh over lithium. There reasons are lithium are not cost effective to rebuild, in many cases have a shorter life span than NiMh, and are not effected by temperature as much. The only advantage lithium has is lower weight.

[Lee Ludden]

The 18 Dewalt Litium's will be backwards compatible with the 18v NiCad. I am pretty sure that is not the case with Bosh and Milwaukee. I haven't verified it personally, but it was what was told to me by my local dealer when I saw a new kit on display.

[Glen Butler]

The advances in lithium technology in the last few years has been incredible, but other battery technologies are not going to disappear. There is no reason to hold out buying a product for something better unless that something better is right around the corner on the exact product you want to buy. Even then, would you want to be part of the first gen. consumer beta test? I bought a Hitachi cordless drill with new massive Nimh batteries. They died very quickly, but out of warranty. I am still using a much older Ridgid drill with NiCd batteries. Every battery technology has its advantages and disadvantages. Just get what you need if you need it and enjoy it.

[Ray Bell]

One of the problems with early NiCad batteries was self discharge. If I didn't use a NiCad drill purchased in the late '90s for a few weeks, the battery would be pretty well self discharged. I'd heard 1% discharge/day. I had two battery packs rebuilt by MTO battery with NiCad cells 3 years ago. The rebuilds were MUCH better about not self discharging. This past Christmas I bought a Bosch kit at Lowes for $199 18 v. drill & impact driver. I charged the batteries when I unpacked them and haven't charged them yet. Of course I haven't used them much either :o but point being they'll hold a charge very well. The 18 v. LiIon is lighter than the 14.4 v. NiCad as well.

Curt,
Is having the batteries rebuilt cost effective? Is the cost much different than buying new batteries?

[jason lambert]

More tools are going to lithium ion. Buy the tool and the battery will follow the Dewalt stuff is nice because you can eithor use the lithum or nicad and the same charger and they even make small and large batts that all work interchangeable. Depending on the job and tool I will grap a compaq or xr pack.

Anyhow not everyting is changing and you didn't mention what tool you where looking for. I do like the lithum mainly because of no memory and weight. But I would also buy a nicad tool if it was a good tool I think the technology is more robust. Also Lithum ion is about twice as expensive so it all depends on funding as well.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Curt,
Is having the batteries rebuilt cost effective? Is the cost much different than buying new batteries?

I have had numerous batteries rebuilt. It is not clear to me that it was significantly cheaper than purchasing a new battery pack (similar cost). I have done this, however, because I have had good results, and, for some items, it was not possible to replace the battery pack. I have an old cordless drill with the batteries built into the handle (no pack). There is no official replacement path. I like the device for its size and features. Have not found anything similar in the same size and features.

I have also rebuilt battery packs that I could purchase new, but, this allowed me to be a bit more environmentally friendly (rather than simply pitching the entire assembly), and, I have had very good luck with the replacement batteries used by batteries plus (the people that I use).

I have had great advantage using them to replace batteries in things such as my back-up batteries used for my computers. Just bring the entire pack with you. Sometimes they need to connect certain pieces together for you.

[joe milana]

My neighbor the electronic engineer really pushes NiMH technology. I have been borrowing his Panasonic 12v impact driver with a 7 year old battery to drive 3" deck screws and I must say, this thing refuses to quit.

I have a 2.5 year old Milwaukee 18v Li-ion compact drill that still works, but the batteries are just about shot. I paid $200 for the drill and new batteries are about $130. Is it worth it? I'll probably end up with a new drill.

Moral of the story: Choose a battery operated tool, enjoy it for a couple years, and expect to replace it....OR maybe take a serious look at the Panasonic NiMH tools. They are supposedly a leader in battery technology.

[Nathan Palenski]

I have also rebuilt battery packs that I could purchase new, but, this allowed me to be a bit more environmentally friendly (rather than simply pitching the entire assembly), and, I have had very good luck with the replacement batteries used by batteries plus (the people that I use).



Batteries plus uses japanese cells branded Nuon if I remember right. They're some of the better replacement cells out there.

[Joe Chritz]

Rebuilds are usually a little cheaper.

Back when I bought my DeWalt 14.4 it was actually better to buy another needed tool or an extra drill with 2 batteries than have a pack rebuilt or a new one purchased. Now that the 18 volt are so popular a rebuild is the best way to go short of a complete tool replacement.

I am going to be switching to a small 12 volt driver for cabinet assembly and doors / drawers because they are now very powerful for the size. Lithium ion batteries make smaller sizes possible.

Battery tech will continue to improve over the next few years for sure.

Joe

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Batteries plus uses japanese cells branded Nuon if I remember right. They're some of the better replacement cells out there.
I have batteries from them with the Nuon name on it. They have performed very well.

[Curt Harms]

Curt,
Is having the batteries rebuilt cost effective? Is the cost much different than buying new batteries?
Hi Ray

it was for me--the batteries for this drill (P-C) had been discontinued. The rebuilt batteries performed much better than the factory battery did when new-virtually no self discharge and seemed like better capacity, so for me it was worth it. One of the downsides to li-Ion is no one rebuilds them that I know of. Unless that changes, if the battery style is discontinued the machine becomes a paperweight even though it works great.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The 18 Dewalt Litium's will be backwards compatible with the 18v NiCad. I am pretty sure that is not the case with Bosh and Milwaukee. I haven't verified it personally, but it was what was told to me by my local dealer when I saw a new kit on display.

The question is.... Can you charge the Lithium batter in the NiCad charger? I always assume no unless it is specifically listed as compatible.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks all for the replies. This has been an interesting thread to me as I have a DeWalt 14V drill that is ~ 5 years old now, and both batteries are about shot. Neither will hold a charge more than half an hour. In my mind I have been debating on what to do. Buy a new drill motor, and pitch this one... somehow it just doesn't seem right to pitch a perfectly good drill motor because of bad batteries, but because the cost of new batteries almost equals the cost of a new drill with new batteries it seems silly not to.

And if I do buy a new drill should I abandon the seemingly now outdated NiCd battery system, and go with one of the newer systems. The battery rebuild is something that I have never heard of, and is now a new option, ummm....decisions, decisions!

[Curt Harms]

If you check with the battery experts, those that specialize in rebuilding batteries. Most of them recommend a good NiMh over lithium. There reasons are lithium are not cost effective to rebuild, in many cases have a shorter life span than NiMh, and are not effected by temperature as much. The only advantage lithium has is lower weight.

Li-Ion cells are fussier about being recharged. The battery packs have circuity that monitor temperature and charge rate and regulate accordingly. So charger compatibility enters into it as well.

[Ray Bell]

"Li-Ion cells are fussier about being recharged. The battery packs have circuity that monitor temperature and charge rate and regulate accordingly. So charger compatibility enters into it as well".

Curt, if the Li-Ion chargers regulate, does this mean you can leave the batteries on the charger indefinitely without the adverse memory effect of NiCds?

[Tom Cornish]

I've pretty much switched to all Lithium. The power to weight ratio makes a big difference (though not necessarily a physical size difference) in usability of the tool to me. I've had the Dewalt 36-volt stuff for 3 years now. One of my two batteries died within the first year. I continued to use the half-dead pack for another year, and Dewalt replaced it anyway for free. My original pack is going strong. I recently replaced my smaller tools with the Dewalt 18 volt lithium.

Dewalt spends a lot of time marketing their cells as being different - "Nano" tech. In the case of the 2.3Ah batteries I believe this marketing info - they use batteries from A123 systems that were originally designed for electric car use. They fit power tool uses better than general-purpose lipo or lion cells in that they can handle the discharge demands and have really long calendar life - supposedly 5 years plus. This comes at the expense of energy capacity - those tools with 3.0Ah batteries can hold more energy per charge (at least when new) than the Dewalt 2.3Ah stuff, but they will die sooner.

Note that the baby Dewalt 1.2Ah packs are NOT the A123 cells and as such don't have the longevity benefits that the 2.3Ah cells do.

[Nathan Palenski]

I have batteries from them with the Nuon name on it. They have performed very well.

Do they say they're made in japan? I find that pretty much any decent quality aftermarket battery works better than factory equipment. I buy a lot of batteries from seidio and have a handful from BP.

[John Coloccia]

"Li-Ion cells are fussier about being recharged. The battery packs have circuity that monitor temperature and charge rate and regulate accordingly. So charger compatibility enters into it as well".

Curt, if the Li-Ion chargers regulate, does this mean you can leave the batteries on the charger indefinitely without the adverse memory effect of NiCds?

Li-Ion batteries, and generally none of the rechargeable lithium chemistries like Li-Po and LiFe, do not suffer from memory. However, modern NiCds do not suffer from memory anymore either. The only reason to discharge a NiCd these days is to monitor it's life, i.e. you charge it up and then discharge at a known rate. The time required tells you the condition of the pack (it took 1 hour to discharge last year....this year it's only 30 minutes...the pack's gone). The memory problems had to do with crystallization in the packs. This has been largely eliminated by changing the manufacturing process.

re: charging Li-Ion in another charger
Absolutely, positively not, never...generally, that is :) You're sure to severely damage, if not blow up, your pack. Li-Ion charging is quite a complicated affair compared to NiCds. Some packs have charging circuitry in them already, though. I don't know what the deal with those is, and they may well be safe to charge in a standard charger.

re: A123 batteries
I believe they're using a variation of LiFe technology. A123 cells are the best cells on the market in terms of safety and user friendliness. The greatest advantage of their cells is that they don't fail by blowing up and catching fire. They smolder and vent instead. A typical failure mode for a standard pack is to get hot, puff up, and then spectacularly erupt into a very nasty chemical fire. A123 batteries are a slam dunk and I'm not sure why any manufacturer of consumer goods would ever use anything else. They also outperform just about every other cell on the market, if not every other cell.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks John

[Paul Ryan]

Ray,

I have had 2 batteries rebuilt one for a crapsman 19.2 tool. That was a wash a new battery or rebuild same price. I also have had a 18v dewalt rebuilt. That saved me money over the cost of a new battery. Both batteries last significantly longer than the orginally batteries when they were new. It seems that I never have to recharge them they last forever now. I strongly suggest rebuilds if the tool is in good shape. The batteries are so much better than a new one, I will never by new batteries.

[Jim Andrew]

I have a Makita NIMH, and I dropped one of the batteries, and it will not charge any more. Anything I can do with it?

[Ray Bell]

Thanks Paul, this is probably what I will do. I hate to toss a perfectly good drill motor because of a bad battery.

[Curt Harms]

"Li-Ion cells are fussier about being recharged. The battery packs have circuity that monitor temperature and charge rate and regulate accordingly. So charger compatibility enters into it as well".

Curt, if the Li-Ion chargers regulate, does this mean you can leave the batteries on the charger indefinitely without the adverse memory effect of NiCds?

I wouldn't leave the batteries on the charger indefinitely. One of the advantages of Li-Ion is they don't self discharge. The reason the leave batteries on the charger all the time is to counter self discharge. Li-Ion doesn't self discharge. I've read where Li-Ion batteries not in regular use are better stored partially discharged, then charge 'em when you need 'em, such as when starting a project. Another reason to not leave Li-Ion batteries on a charger all the time is if the regulating mechanism fails, overcharging Li-Ion cells can lead to spectacular results. Remember the notebook batteries that were recalled 'cause they caught fire?

[Jack Wilson50]

I just purchased a set of Makita 10.8 volt, on is a impact driver and the other is a drill driver. They are supprisingly powerful.

[Jack Burgess]

Just learning I guess - did not know you COULD have batteries rebuilt !! where do you sent them and yes is it cost effective - sounds like everyone is agreeing that they and better rebuilt than buying new ?

[Curt Harms]

Just learning I guess - did not know you COULD have batteries rebuilt !! where do you sent them and yes is it cost effective - sounds like everyone is agreeing that they and better rebuilt than buying new ?

Here is the guy I used: http://mtobattery.com/store/index.html

Some batteries can be rebuilt, others cannot. The difference seems to be whether the battery pack can be opened and reclosed without destroying it.

[Jack Burgess]

ThanksCurt, I wonder if there is a list of the ones that can and cannot be rebuild that is available to review

[Curt Harms]

ThanksCurt, I wonder if there is a list of the ones that can and cannot be rebuild that is available to review

The owner of MTO battery seems to be good about responding to emails. If I were you, I'd email him a list of batteries you'd like rebuilt and see what you hear back. He has a phone # listed as well 717-252-1158 Voice 773-364-8031 Fax. I'm certain there are other quality vendors out there as well but I have done business MTO and was satisfied.

[Jack Burgess]

John, you seem to know a lot about batteries. Recently having problems with batteries not lasting long as usual - I have charging station in garage shop - does the heat make the batteries de-charge faster or not stay charged as long - or would it be better to have place to charge in house. Would welcome your comments.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

John, you seem to know a lot about batteries. Recently having problems with batteries not lasting long as usual - I have charging station in garage shop - does the heat make the batteries de-charge faster or not stay charged as long - or would it be better to have place to charge in house. Would welcome your comments.

Will have to see what John says, but...

I expect heat to accelerate the "chemical reaction" in the battery; both the good and the bad. Expect, therefore, a decreased battery life.

http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm

Note that there is exponential growth with temperature increase. There is a graph showing expected age versus temperature.

[michael osadchuk]

Here is a link to a free online book about various types of batteries.......

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/

click on 'book' in the top row of items and follow the links....

I found this online about a year and a half ago when I was researching whether to buy a 18 volt Lithium battery powered Makita dual pack of an impact driver and regular drill (I bought the Makita set and am happy with it)......

I don't know how dated the information in the book may be today and the book itself notes that the lithium battery is a relatively new, fast evolving technology, with different chemical formulations so it may be that some of its descriptions of the advantages/disadvantages of the lithium powered tool that you now have or are thinking of buying may not apply.......

.... my take on lithium (from the book): more power in a smaller/lighter package; has a definite shelf life compared to nicads (so don't buy a spare set of lion batteries and stick them on the shelf for a year or two down the road); has a much rate of self-discharge than nicads between charges; if possible store in a cooler environment to extend shelf life and they are more expensive than nicads (but I assume that like most new technologies the batteries will get cheaper... lithium is a mineral that it mined commercially and I don't know that it is scarce)

.... and no, I don't think nicads will disappear for some time; it is a stable, proven technology....

good luck

michael

[John Coloccia]

John, you seem to know a lot about batteries. Recently having problems with batteries not lasting long as usual - I have charging station in garage shop - does the heat make the batteries de-charge faster or not stay charged as long - or would it be better to have place to charge in house. Would welcome your comments.

Cold is typically the killer when it comes to battery performance. Ever try to start your car in the winter time? YANG*YANG*YANG*******YAAAAANNNGGGGG******YAANNNNNC LICK CLICK CLICK*DEAD. There you go :) It really depends on the specific chemistry but that's generally true.

Batteries can, and do, get quite warm while they're running. You probably don't notice it because tool manufacturers do a good job of surrounding them with lots of plastic bits that don't conduct heat very well. The packs are getting pretty hot, though. Not Lithium packs, by the way. Lithium packs should NEVER get hot...they will get warm but there's something wrong if it gets hot.

Lithium packs in particular, though, are a bit of a different animal. Sometimes there are admonishments to storing them in hot cars, for example. There are others that claim they're really not affected by hot and cold temperatures. There's a whole slew of Lithium technologies so it's tough to generalize.

The bottom line, though, is that I just really wouldn't worry about it too much. The extra 20 degrees in your shop is just probably not enough to make a significant difference and the performance drop you're seeing may just be aging batteries.

UNLESS....and here's one possibility. Are you using NiCd batteries by chance? There are some chargers out there, and to be very honest I have NO idea if any of the tool chargers work like this, that use the heat generated by the NiCd pack in order to detect the pack is peaked and to stop charging. In this case, if you're starting with a pack that's already pretty warm, it might throw that off just a little bit and not quite give you a peak charge. I think this is a long shot, and even if it were happening I still wouldn't worry about it because life's too short to worry about batteries.

So relax and enjoy your charging stations. It's probably all in your head, and if it's not it's the battery's fault, and if it ends up being your fault, well then so what? The batteries don't mind too much :)

Better yet, insulate the garage, air condition it, and the problem's solved for good!