Is carpentry woodworking?

[Dan Mages]

This was brought up in a different thread, and I thought it deserved some discussion. Is carpentry, such as building decks, houses, sheds, fences, etc..., considered woodworking? Why or why not?

Dan

[Jason Roehl]

Oooh, boy. Can o' worms here. I'd say the line is not so definite, but very gray. I think building the things you mentioned COULD be woodworking, but in many cases is not. I've seen many a trim "carpenter" who knew nothing of joinery, wood movement, accuracy and the like. I think a lot of it has to do with two things: the attitude of the carpenter towards the construction they are doing, and the budget. Some customers may just not be paying for "woodworking", rather they are paying for "hanging trim" or "slapping up a shed". Some carpenters may not stoop to this level, but sometimes it's what a guy has to do to pay the bills.

As a comparison, I'm a painter. I much prefer doing custom work with deep colors and razor-sharp cut-lines. But, come August when we have a couple hundred apartments to paint, I can't turn down the profitable, hard, sweaty work of painting a 4-bedroom apartment in 2-3 hours (still done neatly, of course--I can't be paid to ruin things).

[Mark J Bachler]

"Beer cans & framing hammers are to carpenters as hand planes & wood chisels are to cabinetmakers."

I have allot of carpenter friends that I help out & they just love it when I give them a measurement like 32 25/64" to cut. HUH? That's when I give them the line above.

It's like any profession. You have the good & bad.

[Karl Laustrup]

I always have thought of it as a carpenter being one that builds houses and the like. A Woodworker builds furniture and beautiful works of art in wood.
My 2 cents on the subject.

Karl

[Frank Pellow]

There is an overlap and the size of the overlap depends on the project, the design of that project, and the interest/skill of the carpenter/woodworker.

[Tyler Howell]

Both are time honored professions that have the good and the bad.

Both are highly skilled craftspersons, some that play on both teams. I say yes!

[Jason Roehl]

There is an overlap and the size of the overlap depends on the project, the design of that project, and the interest/skill of the carpenter/woodworker.

I THINK that's what I said. :D Some people just have a way with words... :cool:

Well put, Frank.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm with Frank and Tyler on this one.......I've seen beautiful homes where the persons who built it were artists......I've seen tract houses that were just team mass produced. Depends on the project and the attention to detail by the persons building it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

While not every carpenter out there is a woodworker (or vice-versa), there are some exceptions. While I am no master woodworker, I can hold my own on certain projects.

I build decks and fences, but also do entertainment units, cabinets and built-ins as well as trimwork.

I would say the question is way to general to be answered one way. There are many answers to that question.

[Bob Hovde]

Oooh, boy. Can o' worms here. I'd say the line is not so definite, but very gray. I think building the things you mentioned COULD be woodworking, but in many cases is not. I've seen many a trim "carpenter" who knew nothing of joinery, wood movement, accuracy and the like. ....

I think we're equating "carpenter" to someone who uses nails to hold wood together. Traditional log buildings (a few in this country - many in Germany) have very intricate joints and are held together with gravity and pegs. There is just as much "woodworking" to them as most cabinets.

Bob

[Jason Roehl]

I think we're equating "carpenter" to someone who uses nails to hold wood together. Traditional log buildings (a few in this country - many in Germany) have very intricate joints and are held together with gravity and pegs. There is just as much "woodworking" to them as most cabinets.

Bob

I agree wholeheartedly, and would love to live in/build such a house, or at least a timber-framed house with pegged joinery.

Some of the areas I have seen trim "carpenters" fall short is in the construction of fireplace mantles (onsite, and many unnecessary nailholes, etc.) and stair systems. I can't say I've ever seen trim glued onto the walls, though I've heard some do it.

[Kurt Aebi]

Todd is a brilliant example of the collision between carpentry skills and woodworking skills and excells at both, from everything I've seen here at SMC.
Unfornately, he is an exception, not the rule.

I feel both are woodworking as each uses Wood to Work with. Enough said.

It is just a "degree" of woodworking, there is much planning, designing, skill and craftsmanship/workmanship involved in both endeavors. There is a huge overlap and there are many out there that can do Both. But just not as many that excell at both.

I like to look at it in a little different light. Could scrollsawing, intarsia, penturning, vessel turning, chair-making, caning, sawmilling lumber, picture-framing, box-making, clock-making, furniture making (fine, functional or artistic) etc. be considered woodworking. Of Course - and there is room here for it all.

Not trying to put anyone or any of the different avenues of woodworking down, just trying to clarify that if it is Made of Wood and you Work with it - It's Woodworking, in my book anyway.

So my answer to your original question "Is carpentry woodworking?" I'd have to say Yes

[Jack Hogoboom]

Since each of them is equally difficult for me to do right, I'll consider them as one in the same. Frankly, any victory over a piece of wood is a sweet satisfaction for me, whether it's the baseboard trim or a clean miter. I'll take 'em wherever I can get them!!!

Jack

P.S. In my experience, the splinters are the same. :rolleyes:

[Randy Meijer]

The grillman at the local diner and the chef at the 5 star restaurant are both cooks; but their focus is different. A carpenter and a cabinet maker are both woodworkers; but their focus, too, is different. And to bring it a little closer to home, both Jason and Rembrandt are painters; but...........

[Jason Roehl]

And to bring it a little closer to home, both Jason and Rembrandt are painters; but...........

So was Michelangelo, but I don't take 10 years to paint a single ceiling... :D

[Mark Singer]

I guess you can say its all woodworking... a Yugo is a car like a Porsche or BMW,Mercedes...they are just cars!
House framing is an art...I have done it , even had crews for a few years...it requires skill...the tools are different. It is amazing what a seasoned framer can do with a Skillsaw.
Timber frames with exposed joinery is an art! Beautiful to watch...better to live in!

[Lee Schierer]

My grandfather was a carpenter. If you wanted something made from wood, he was your man. He could build a house, a deck, make your kitchen cabinets, hang a door and trim it. He was not and never pretended to be a cabinet maker.

The problem is the term "woodworker" By definition it is anyone who works with wood. So the guys with chain saws doing carvings, those building houses and decks and those making jewelry boxes, bowls and dressers and even Sam Maloof are woodworkers.

If you stick with Carpenter and cabinet maker you are going to be more accurate. While I can frame up a house or build a deck, I take far too long and want everything plumb and square. The carpenters that worked on my house last summer were amazed at the fit I achieved on some of the work I did. For them if it was within 1/4" it was close enough.

Cabinet makers can do carpentry, but wont' get rich doing it, and many carpenters can't make a decent cabinet.

[Keith Christopher]

I say it is, I mean on a different level. They still deal with the angles and joints and compound cuts, it's just on a different scale. I finished my apprenticship as a carpenter building A frames just before leaving for the military and being good at it, much like building furniture is a true talent. :D I don't think it is safe to say any cabinet maker could build a house much like any carpenter could build fine furniture. Wood worker, for sure. Just on a differnet scale.

[Ed Falis]

There is an overlap and the size of the overlap depends on the project, the design of that project, and the interest/skill of the carpenter/woodworker.

What Frank said!

- Ed

[Bob Smalser]

Had a similar discussion earlier today:


Posted in query:What about you guys- are you perfect all the time- or just with the stuff you really love? And how bout work for hire? Where's the standard of craftsmanship here?


Posted in reply:
When studying naval architecture, wooden boatbuilding was taught by a rather patrician Brit whose comment on the abilities of woodworkers was as follows:

"There are three types of people who work with wood. At the apex are yacht builders, who are true masters of the material. Beneath them are cabinetmakers who, though competent at using tools, are limited by their restriction to building things as boxes. The rest are mere wood-butchers."

I always admired his flexibility. ;)

Actually, my first impression is rather uncomplimentary, to say the least...someone who obviously has never met an accomplished luthier, timber framer, stairbuilder, stockmaker/fitter, patternmaker, etc, et al.

I most admire craftsmen willing to expand their skills by appreciating and watching the other trades...nobody owns the market on craft. My Dad's favorite adage was "30 years of experience"... i.e. learning something new every day, versus..."ten years of experience and 20 years practice at it."

Heck, one of the best craftsmen I know locally works only with storebought framing lumber and power tools. He's a mere framing carpenter whose specialty is roof framing on high-end houses....gables, turrets, dormers, curving, dished eaves....all the stuff that makes my head hurt just looking at the plans. Doing that level of work to the competitive, commercial pace that feeds his family is an artistry of its own, and I'll hold up the ends of his rafters any time just to watch his dance.

But to address the question, My Uncle Paul apprenticed as a traditional carriagemaker under his Dad...went on to build wood boats commercially as carriagemaking became auto body work...and later in his life took on winter work conserving and restoring antique furniture for museums and high-end dealers, as his special joy was painting and finishes.

While his joinery standard was a constant, you simply got the level of finish you were willing to pay for....ranging from boat soup on a planed or even roughsawn surface to his finest French polish.

[Bob Worrel Jr.]

I put both of the following projects together.

At the end of the day I was able to stand back and have the same feeling of satisfaction. I consider both to be done by a carpenter.

[Kent Cori]

I agree with Keith, both are variations of wood working. My personal problem with a carpentry project is that I approach it like I do a fine wood working project in that I am a stickler for precise dimensions and angles. Clearly the carpenter who built my house wasn't constrained by 90-degree angles; he was much more creative by choosing random angles that were only in the general range of 90-degrees! :eek: :confused: :(

[Chris Padilla]

LOL, Kent! :)

I've been running into that particular problem with my garage remodel. I am learning (kinda) where to draw the line between something taking me an hour to do and 5 minutes if I just "get it close"....

[Jim Becker]

I've been running into that particular problem with my garage remodel. I am learning (kinda) where to draw the line between something taking me an hour to do and 5 minutes if I just "get it close"....
Sage advice we all need to listen to! It's great to be anal in the shop, but when it comes to Home Improvement and other "carpentry" skills, if it's getting covered by something get the job done expeditiously and move on...IMHO, of course, not that I always follow my own advice! :D

[Tyler Howell]

[QUOTE=Jim Becker]when it comes to Home Improvement and other "carpentry" skills, if it's getting covered by something get the job done expeditiously and move on...


But, But, But,......... I've been trained to do it right and, and, and, ..... I've got all these $$$$$$ toyls...... and Creekers will be looking!!! :( :o

[Tyler Howell]

[QUOTE=Bob Worrel Jr.]I put both of the following projects together.

Great play room Bob.......:rolleyes: I mean work space:o .

[Jim Becker]

But, But, But,......... I've been trained to do it right and, and, and, ..... I've got all these $$$$$$ toyls...... and Creekers will be looking!!! [/b]
Nowhere did I or Chris say not to do it right! It just doesn't have to be "pretty" when drywall is going to cover it up. Just accurate, strong and secure. Now...trim...that's an art sometimes!

[Tyler Howell]

I know I know!:o
I've often said to nubeez "It's not fine furniture" or "No one knows but you" but I find myself incredibly frustrated by less than a stellar performance on some remuddling projects. The more I know and invest time/$$$$ the more critical I am of my work.
I guess I'd prefer the guy following behind me and my peers say "well done" rather than my mom and S.O.


Nothing drugs and therapy won't fix:p :p . I'd like to measure my work by more than speed. I can hire that out.



It's still fun and satisfying. I'll keep making sawdust!!!

[Jim Becker]

Nothing drugs and therapy won't fix !
There are better vices, my friend... :D :D :D

[Dino Makropoulos]

This was brought up in a different thread, and I thought it deserved some discussion. Is carpentry, such as building decks, houses, sheds, fences, etc..., considered woodworking? Why or why not?

Dan
Building a house, a shed or a deck is woodworking on larger scale. (And you have to take in consideration many fact's and other trades.)

To get closer to your question, We install kitchen's (at the projects) for $150.00 each and we build and install doors for $35,000,00 each.
The principles of woodworking apply the same on both jobs.

The "woodworking industry" is to broad and start's from the logger and sawmill to the woodworking architect-designer and deck builder.
YCF Dino "the carpenter"

[Carl Eyman]

The woodworking trades represented there include Sawyers (they saw the logs into lumber), Carpenters (they build the frames of the buildings), Jointers (they do all the trim work, panelling, interior cabinetry, and, perhaps sashes and doors), Cabinetmakers (build furniture, clock cases, etc.), Gunsmiths (fashion gun stocks and carve them), Luthers (make musical instruments such as harpsicords, mandolins, violins, etc.), and Coopers (make barrels, wooden buckets, and other wooden water holding vessels) I have named seven of the eleven trades that use woodworking tools at Williamsburg. (I've just remembered Carriage Builders and Wheelwrights).

Would any of you care to claim that any one of them is not a "woodworker". I don't think anyone would be so brash. So how does that fit in with the "handyman" that cobbles together a deck that is out of plumb, wobbly, etc? Does it depend on the workmanship?

[Keith Outten]

I think the term "Woodworker" is actually a generic term that includes all those who work with wood. Woodworkers specialize in the same fashion as Medical Doctors...general dentistisry, orthodontists, surgeons, pharmacists, etc. Also the same as welders, pipe welders, structural welders...and on and on.

The answer in my opinion is that carpenters are woodworkers.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Would any of you care to claim that any one of them is not a "woodworker". I don't think anyone would be so brash. So how does that fit in with the "handyman" that cobbles together a deck that is out of plumb, wobbly, etc? Does it depend on the workmanship?

You have a point there Carl.
Let's call this guy's...bad woodworker's. (no such of thing) :confused:
Oxymoron?
So, we remove them from the "title." :)
But I' know of some deck builder's that BUILD "art" on deck's.
How do we call a bad doctor? Butcher?
And a bad woodworker? same thing?
To answer your question, i' think yes, It depend's on workmanship a lot.

A good carpenter is a woodworker. :cool:
Now it will get confusing. :D
A good woodworker is a carpenter? :confused:
Who start this thread? he sould give us the answer.
Happy thanksgiving to all carpenter's, woodworker's and butcher's.
YCF Dino

[David Rose]

I am a woodworker. I work with wood. I think I would prefer to be "called" a furniture maker.

I often enjoy the intensity of selecting wood, close fitting joints, hiding problems, and a nice finish. I also enjoyed throwing my deck together so that it would hold up some wood and my smoker and give me a place to walk. I could care less how the deck looks... well... within reason. :D We don't entertain on it, so it is just somewhat cleaner than the ground.

I really prefer the precise work, but the imprecise is a great diversion for me.

If the carpenter who built my house worked like I work wood, I would never have a house. I couldn't afford it or he would be working on it until after I die. :o He was a "workman in wood", a woodworker. He worked to the dimensions that were needed for the job at hand. I have no less respect for him at his trade than for a great builder of furniture at his. Both are woodworkers, I guess the Boy Scout is who builds a fire :rolleyes:. One works in thousandths of an inch, one in 1/8"s (not counting the Boy Scout). They both do what the job calls for to produce a workmanlike product.

David with an opinion...

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Hey Dave...now that's an interesting take on the subject!

I still haven't figured out what to do with the bent Oak strips, but they are waiting patiently!!

[David Rose]

Kelly, when you use those oaks strips for something, post it! :) They were headed for my trash, so you taking them was a blessing to me. I expect to live a few more years. Anytime within that time limit is fine. :D If they become firewood, may you stay warm.

Everyone thinks I'm nuts for going from precision metal working at my job to precision wood working as a hobby. But when I was spending time tying fishing flies I was tying mostly 26 to 30 sizes, so... The bend of a size 28 hook won't slide over your thumbnail's thickness! But they sometime catch *big* trout! That does not stop me from admiring those who can open up tolerances a little and really turn out some production. After all, a 6" Rapala may catch as many big browns as my 1/4" or smaller midge.

I am sad that my Dad feels like I consider his wood work inferior because he does not try to hold (or really know how) the tolerances that I do. I never want anyone to feel like I consider their work less "meaningful" than mine. Shoot! I suspect that 90% of the folks who post here blow me away on both quality and quantity of work! I do not feel bad about that. It gives me goals. I want to be happy with what I do. This is a hobby to me for pure enjoyment.

David


Hey Dave...now that's an interesting take on the subject!

I still haven't figured out what to do with the bent Oak strips, but they are waiting patiently!!

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I will post the finished product for sure. Once we get into the dead of winter I might have time to ponder it.

[Curt Putnam]

This is an interesting question because it demonstrates the power of language to influence the way we think. As phrased, the question invites a yes or no answer when the subject is clearly a continuum. In addition, had the word "fine" (as in fine woodworking) been added to the question, I suspect the answers would have been different. There would probably be more agreement with a question along the lines of: What are the characteristics that separate fine woodworking from carpentry?

:D :D Don't mind me - just killing time.

[Dan Gill]

After helping build a stage for our church Christmas show, I can safely say that carpentry is NOT woodworking. It's a LOT HARDER! I ache in places I didn't know I had places . . .

[Chris DeHut]

Perhaps the question should be:

"is a woodworker a carpenter?"

just a different angle on an interesting subject.

Chris DeHut

[Peter Gavin]

I noticed on NYW this weekend that Norm calls himself a 'Master Carpenter'. Just my 2 cents worth.

Peter

[Jay Knoll]

Well, if the US government is any help, here is what they say about carpentry

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos202.htm

I don't know if I made a throw away comment a while ago in a thread concerning a corner cabinet. I said something like "of course this isn't woodworking it is carpentry" refering to a corner cabinet that was in effect, a big face frame in a corner with cleats attached to the walls to create the shelves.

I guess I think of woodworking as projects that are created to be used inside a structure, and carpentry as the skills needed to create the structure itself.

Probably splitting hairs, its all good, as long as it is made of wood!

[Jerry Olexa]

Good thoughts by all. All of them make some sense. To my eyes, carpentry generally refers to bigger or more basic projects. Woodworking refers to generally smaller things w more attn to detail and closer tolerances. The sheer size of a room/shop addition easily overlooks a measurement 1" off. But a mortise tenon in fine furniture, this would be unacceptable. Speed is also a factor: You can throw up a framed 2X4 wall quickly but to build a much smaller Cherry highboy demands much more time, patience and attention to detail. In my own case, in younger, healthier days I did more carpentry (big and Fast). Now I necessarily enjoy more the detail and precision of furniture (small and slower). Maybe I'm casting an unfavorable image. Anyway, my 2 cents worth...