New Festool drill - purchase before the sale is over?

[Thomas Walker]

Hello,

The chuck on my dewalt drill is barely functioning and not long for the world so I've been researching alternatives for my next cordless drill.

Since I've been very pleased with the festool tools I have, I've considered the new festool drill that's on sale until 11/30.

While it's definitely priced higher than other drills, I've found that the my festool tools are worth the premium price to me.

However, based on information I've gathered on this site, I've decided that I'm probably not going to purchase the festool drill for the following reason:

1) American standard hex bits don't fit the festool drill. While there's an adapter, using the adapter introduces more runout in the bit and eliminates the small formfactor advantage of the drill.

It also means that if I want to use the small formfactor that I have to buy new bits from Festool and keep up with them.


(Correction) It turns out that the new drills come with a standard adjustable chuck that will hold a 1/2 shank bit, so I can use this drill in the same way I use any other drill -- but I lose the biggest advantage of these drills -- the centrotec chuck.



It seems to me the solution would be for Festool to make a centrotec chuck that is sized to fit American bits. They wouldn't be able to sell their specialized bits, but it would make their drill much more acceptable to the American market.




Please let me know if any of my assumptions are wrong.

Thanks.

[aurelio alarcon]

Hello,

The collet on my dewalt drill is barely functioning and not long for the world so I've been researching alternatives for my next cordless drill.

Since I've been very pleased with the festool tools I have, I've considered the new festool drill that's on sale until 11/30.

While it's definitely priced higher than other drills, I've found that the my festool tools are worth the premium price to me.

However, based on information I've gathered on this site, I've decided that I'm not going to purchase the festool drill for the following reasons:

1) American standard quick change hex bits don't fit the festool drill. While there's an adapter, using the adapter introduces more runout in the bit and it eliminates the small formfactor advantage of the drill.

It also means that if I want to use the small formfactor that I have to buy new bits. Plus keep up with the separate bits and experience down time if a drill bit breaks.

2) Since the festool drill doesn't have an adjustable collet I can't use bits that have a round shank. This means I have to have another drill handy for my vix bits, spade bits, etc.

3) The specialty collets are nice, but I can buy a right angle drill head at harbor freight for $15, so I don't see them as a tremendous advantage.



Please let me know if any of my assumptions are wrong.

Thanks.
Priced higher than other drills is an understatement. All their tools, in my opinion as well as the opinions of some very reputable magazines, are priced over the top. From what I have read, I'm sure that they are very fine tools. But I've yet to be convinced that a sander priced at 3 times the amount of the average priced sanders (Porta Cable, DeWalt etc.) is plausable. Just my opinion. I read in a recent tool review that the Milwaukee has an excellent 14.4 cordless drill out. The review was in either FWW or Wood or American Woodworker--can't remember.

[Jason Roehl]

Why not just replace the chuck on your DeWalt? They are usually very easy to remove and replace, and a decent 1/2" Jacobs chuck can be had for around $30. Unless you're just looking for an excuse to buy a Festool...

[aurelio alarcon]

Why not just replace the chuck on your DeWalt? They are usually very easy to remove and replace, and a decent 1/2" Jacobs chuck can be had for around $30. Unless you're just looking for an excuse to buy a Festool...That is a perfect solution Jason.

[Chris Padilla]

Thomas,

The Centrotec chuck in the new Festool 15.6V drill will hold a hex shank...but it depends. The Irwin hex shank (spade bit) will fit but I have some other hex shanks that will not so it could be a game to find stuff that fits unfortunately. However, it is a wonderful drill. Is it worth it? Dunno, give me a year to use it and I'll let you know.

The Craftsman 14.4EX drill I have is garbage already. The batteries won't hold a charge for longer than 10 minutes of normal drilling. I should say that the drill is fine...the batteries stink. I'm dumping this thing and ain't buyin' no more Craftsman power/wood tools.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hello,

The chuck on my dewalt drill is barely functioning and not long for the world so I've been researching alternatives for my next cordless drill.

Since I've been very pleased with the festool tools I have, I've considered the new festool drill that's on sale until 11/30.

While it's definitely priced higher than other drills, I've found that the my festool tools are worth the premium price to me.

However, based on information I've gathered on this site, I've decided that I'm probably not going to purchase the festool drill for the following reason:

1) American standard hex bits don't fit the festool drill. While there's an adapter, using the adapter introduces more runout in the bit and eliminates the small formfactor advantage of the drill.

It also means that if I want to use the small formfactor that I have to buy new bits from Festool and keep up with them.


(Correction) It turns out that the new drills come with a standard adjustable chuck that will hold a 1/2 shank bit, so I can use this drill in the same way I use any other drill -- but I lose the biggest advantage of these drills -- the centrotec chuck.



It seems to me the solution would be for Festool to make a centrotec chuck that is sized to fit American bits. They wouldn't be able to sell their specialized bits, but it would make their drill much more acceptable to the American market.




Please let me know if any of my assumptions are wrong.

Thanks.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Festool TDK. But if you don't really want/need it replacing your Dewalt's chuck would certainly be another good solution.

As far as I know, the Centrotec chuck does neither work with standard European bits, nor does it work with common American bits. I'm not sure but I think that the shafts of common Euro and US bits even have the same size. As my bits and my caliper are about 150 km away from here, I can't check that right now but I hope to do so next weekend.
I understand that the Centrotec chuck was designed in order to combine short size and low weight with quick bit changing and a max of true running precision.
Just have a look at this document (http://www.festool.com.au/images/Australia/TDK_ENG-AUS.pdf) from Festool Australia. You'll notice that a common hex shaft bit (no matter whether it's a European, Aussie or US type) can't fit the Centrotec chuck because it’s too short.

Regards,

Christian

[Charles McKinley]

Hey Chris,

Why not have the batteries rebuilt by one of the specialty battery stores? Or are you that disgusted with the drill? I swore off anything with a motor of any kind from sears years ago.

[Chris Padilla]

Rebuilt batteries, from what I have found, aren't cheap and if I have both done, it appears about equal to what I paid for the drill/batteries in the first place. Besides, I already have the $$$ Festool taking its place so I'm just gonna dump it for cheap. :) I'm officially "swore off".... :)

[aurelio alarcon]

centrotek...cocentric...concentric.....I believe the word should be eccentric. For the price of those tools, they should accept what ever type of drill bit I put in it! Just my opinion.

[Chris Padilla]

Aurelio,

It would be nice but I think the design of it is quite specific. Dunno if you ever seen the Centrotec chuck but it is just a small little piece of plastic really.... Further, the design of the piece one can chuck into is pretty specific, too. Like I said, I did find a spade bit that fit it...mostly. It was't a 100% solid fit but good enough to allow me to drill a 1 1/8" hole in a stud with a spade bit....

[Jim Becker]

Despite the uniqueness of the Centrotec chuck, I am very glad I bought the Festool TDK 12v Set last month. I've already benefitted from the alternative chucks and when I need a really short reach, a standard wire-detent bit fits in the nose of the tool (sans chuck) or in either the right angle or excentric chucks. Without the sale, I probably would not have "bit" on this tool, but I was much more comfortable with the incentive. Plus, I got to retire my very old PC 14.4 drill/driver that was on its last legs. Between the TDK and my Dewalt 14.4v drill/driver, I'm covered for anything I'd want to do with a cordless system.

[Greg Mann]

I am in agreement with Jim here. Yes, the Centrotec is somewhat proprietary, but it can be used with the supplied adapter for standard US bits, and those bits will fit directly into the drill spindle sans chuck (as well as the RA and Offset adapters). The issue is really that the Centrotec was developed specifically to solve the runout problems that are inherent in the rather poorly controlled hex driven tools, that we have all come to know and love because of their rapid change capability. Controlling runout on a motley collection of hex driven tools, all made to various levels of quality, is not realistic. The Centrotec has a full cylindrical component to control runout in tools made to fit it correctly (as in Festool's own drill bits, drivers, and chamfers) and, consequently, they run very concentrically. Again, however, with the provided adapter, or without any adapter, you can run the short hex bits easily. You get the benefit of increased accessibility to boot. This is a very well designed and built drilling and screwing system and is worth every penny it costs.

Why do some cabinets cost three times as much as others? Because they are made with better materials, designed to last longer, and built with better craftsmanship. Tools ain't no different.

Greg

[aurelio alarcon]

Aurelio,

It would be nice but I think the design of it is quite specific. Dunno if you ever seen the Centrotec chuck but it is just a small little piece of plastic really.... Further, the design of the piece one can chuck into is pretty specific, too. Like I said, I did find a spade bit that fit it...mostly. It was't a 100% solid fit but good enough to allow me to drill a 1 1/8" hole in a stud with a spade bit....You're right Chris. I am not familiar with the tool. I'm sure though that it is a quality tool.

[aurelio alarcon]

I am in agreement with Jim here. Yes, the Centrotec is somewhat proprietary, but it can be used with the supplied adapter for standard US bits, and those bits will fit directly into the drill spindle sans chuck (as well as the RA and Offset adapters). The issue is really that the Centrotec was developed specifically to solve the runout problems that are inherent in the rather poorly controlled hex driven tools, that we have all come to know and love because of their rapid change capability. Controlling runout on a motley collection of hex driven tools, all made to various levels of quality, is not realistic. The Centrotec has a full cylindrical component to control runout in tools made to fit it correctly (as in Festool's own drill bits, drivers, and chamfers) and, consequently, they run very concentrically. Again, however, with the provided adapter, or without any adapter, you can run the short hex bits easily. You get the benefit of increased accessibility to boot. This is a very well designed and built drilling and screwing system and is worth every penny it costs.

Why do some cabinets cost three times as much as others? Because they are made with better materials, designed to last longer, and built with better craftsmanship. Tools ain't no different.

GregI'm not disagreeing with you, however, if I paid the workers in Taiwan or Japan what workers get in say Germany, what would the Porter Cable cost me then? I could guarentee you that the tool would cost more. The thing is that just because it cost more, your not gonna convince me that that alone determines quality. It may be a better tool. I'm not saying that its not. I'm just saying that cost in and of itself isn't the only thing that determines quality. Some manufacturers have outsourced to other countries in order to maintain the same quality, keep the cost down, and all the while pad their pockets just as much or more than they were doing prior to the move. One of the most obvious example of where you could get a better product cheaper was when Japan was building a better product at a better price than the US when they flooded our country with better vehicles. Just some things that came to mind...

[Greg Mann]

I'm not disagreeing with you, however, if I paid the workers in Taiwan or Japan what workers get in say Germany, what would the Porter Cable cost me then? I could guarentee you that the tool would cost more. The thing is that just because it cost more, your not gonna convince me that that alone determines quality. It may be a better tool. I'm not saying that its not. I'm just saying that cost in and of itself isn't the only thing that determines quality. Some manufacturers have outsourced to other countries in order to maintain the same quality, keep the cost down, and all the while pad their pockets just as much or more than they were doing prior to the move. One of the most obvious example of where you could get a better product cheaper was when Japan was building a better product at a better price than the US when they flooded our country with better vehicles. Just some things that came to mind...
Aurelio,

I would not try to convince you that because it costs more it is a better tool. I believe it is exactly the other way around. I never said that cost alone determines quality. That was your take on my post and I don't see how you got there. It is a better tool, therefore it costs more, precisely because it costs more to make a better tool. Better gears, better bearings, tighter tolerances, more time in the design stages, more time in the testing stages, etc. And yes, higher wages in Germany than China. If Festool decides to be loyal to its employees and manufacture in Germany and that means you will pay more than if they are not loyal and outsource, then they run the risk of not selling to you because you seem to covet the cheaper price. Maybe they have decided to stay home and not "all the while pad their pockets just as much". Maybe they have decided they will make the tools in their own way, to high design and quality standards, charge accordingly, and accept that they will sell only to those who appreciate that effort. If that's not you then it's not you. Thomas wants to know if those of us who have bought the drill think it is worthy of the extra cost. So far, I haven't read anyone who has the drill say he regrets it. And, speaking for myself, if I am paying a little more because Festool has been loyal to its workers, I can live with it. We could use a little more of that around here.

Greg

[David Figueroa]

I am interested in the drill, and have been waiting for a good deal on the panasonic 15v. How much power will I loose with the Festool 12v? Would the difference not be even greater since panasonic uses NiMH batteries instead of NiCd? I too dont want to let this deal pass if I can justify it as my one and only cordless.

OT:
I am ashamed of US companies that have given away their markets to Germany and Japan... How is it possible that Festo, Metabo, Hilti, Milwakee, Bosch can make excellent products AND be profitable while US companies have sold out or gone under?

Are their any high quality american manufacturers left - heck, I would even accept canadian, mexican or brasilian? Even with simple things like knives, I was forced to buy german knives (wustof), and I looked and looked for an equivalent US vendor (No cutco's dont count, they are stamped metal).

[John R Lucas]

David,
I have the new Festool drills with the centronics chuck and I use standard bits. I know that the minor size difference is a hangup for a bunch of the people who write eloquent notes on the Festool forum, but I have had it in use for 2 months and have no problems. I use square drive screws an awful lot and I just snapped festool's bit holder into the Centronics and used the bits from my Black & Decker assortment in as needed. It is true they dont have the sligt recess for retension but the magnetic head provides enough. This bit "problem" scenario is really making a mountain out of a molehill. Festool will come up with the "correct bits" someday but I sure am not going to wait for theat, not when I want to get to work. These are great drill drivers

[Greg Mann]

David,
I have the new Festool drills with the centronics chuck and I use standard bits. I know that the minor size difference is a hangup for a bunch of the people who write eloquent notes on the Festool forum, but I have had it in use for 2 months and have no problems. I use square drive screws an awful lot and I just snapped festool's bit holder into the Centronics and used the bits from my Black & Decker assortment in as needed. It is true they dont have the sligt recess for retension but the magnetic head provides enough. This bit "problem" scenario is really making a mountain out of a molehill. Festool will come up with the "correct bits" someday but I sure am not going to wait for theat, not when I want to get to work. These are great drill drivers

John is right. Somehow, the notion got started that US standard bits can't be used in this drill. Nothing could be further from the truth. Between the drill itself and the attachments I can think of 4 ways US bits fit directly into the tool. I have a big Bosch cordless with a quick-change adapter for hex driven tools. How do you use it? You put it in the chuck. Works fine, but it takes an enormous amount of room. The TDK is just so incredibly flexible and light, and the 12V has plenty of torque for doing the things cordless drills are best for. Any tool or adapter made for the Centronics chuck will run very true, at least as well as in a brand new high quality keyless chuck, and will continue to run true for a long time because the piloting surfaces are not subject to wear. Someone described this chuck as essentially a little plastic thingy. Only the release collars are plastic. The critical components that pilot the tools and attach to the drill spindle are steel and work essentially the same as tap adapters used in very high volume automotive transer line spindles that are subject to thousands of cycles per day.

Greg

Greg

[Thomas Walker]

Thanks so much for all the valuable feedback and suggestions and opinions.

First, thanks for the suggestion of replacing the chuck on my dewalt -- I really hadn't thought of that.

Second, thanks for the feedback from people who own the drill that don't find the current bit limitations a problem & really like the drill.


Third (sorry this one is strictly an opinion), I really think the China manufacturing takeover via low wages is somewhat of a red herring. I think a lot of manufactuing is moving overseas because the US government is doing nothing to protect the american manufacting base, and even encouraging off-shoring through tax structures. As Ross Perot used to point out, the number of ex-government employees who become lobbyists for foreign companies and countries is staggering. Yes, Germany has higher wages than china, but they use a much greater level of automation to reduce the labor component of manufacturing cost.

Do you know who our 2nd greatest trade deficit is with? Canada! Go figure.

[Frank Pellow]

...
Do you know who our 2nd greatest trade deficit is with? Canada! Go figure.
I don't know why this should surprise anyone. Unfortunately for Canada, the a great deal of Canadian exports to the US are natural resources such as oil, wood, and water.

[Thomas Walker]

You're right, we do import a lot of raw materials from Canada, but we import about 3 times as much manufactured goods.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but no matter how many corporate paid economists tell us off-shoring and trade deficits are good for us, it just really doesn't make much sense. If you send out more money than you take in eventually you're going to go broke.

So it's become popular to say it's because American workers are lazy and too demanding. Funny, the Americans I know aren't like that - they just want to be paid a decent wage they can support their families on. Maybe it's our leaders, not our workers, that are the problem.

Importing things we don't have (like resources), or don't engineer as well (like Festool tools) makes sense. But does importing things we could easy make ourselves except that some corporate CEO wants to add a few hundred million to his bonus by paying labor and taxes in another country?

2003 trade import data with Canada (US census bureau)

38.4 Billion Oil & gas
7.7 Billion Wood & Paper products
10 Billion Minerals and Ores

145 Billion Manufactured Goods


p.s. Sorry for hijacking my own thread! :-)

[Frank Pellow]

... Are their any high quality american manufacturers left - heck, I would even accept canadian, mexican or brasilian?
You exagerate, of course, even though there is a trend away from North America that I don't like either. :(

Since you will accept Canadian, I will list three very good woodworking manuafactures right off the top of my head -Veritas, Leigh Industries, General. :)

[Frank Pellow]

You're right, we do import a lot of raw materials from Canada, but we import about 3 times as much manufactured goods.
...

Thanks for the statistics. I stand corrected.

[Greg Mann]

So it's become popular to say it's because American workers are lazy and too demanding. Funny, the Americans I know aren't like that - they just want to be paid a decent wage they can support their families on. Maybe it's our leaders, not our workers, that are the problem.

Importing things we don't have (like resources), or don't engineer as well (like Festool tools) makes sense.
p.s. Sorry for hijacking my own thread! :-)

Isn't it interesting that Japanese automakers are doing more and more manufacturing here while the American companies seem intent on going offshore. Some of the Japanese plants in North America are the most productive in the industry, even more than the home plants.

We could design and build to Festool quality levels but it would take commitment and passion to do it. Instead we get mergers and acquisitions to sew up more market spots and sell based on price point and distribution strategies. Why not just build better tools?

Greg