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View Full Version : Ok! Mark Singer you asked for it.



Zahid Naqvi
11-22-2004, 9:52 PM
Well you started the whole debate on how we spend too much time on tools and too little on design, so here's your chance to be the guiding light for wannabes like me.

How do you go from being amazed by pretty pictures in magazines or Internet to developing a personal style. I am a computer engineer and have been brain washed for too long. When aproaching a new subject I am used to looking at a flow chart of certification track of courses. So what do you think would be a design track which culminates into one being able to visualize original designs, and not combines aspects of several others into a single product. Which is my current modus operandi.

:confused:

Mark Singer
11-22-2004, 10:46 PM
Zahid,

I am actually quite pleased with the response and activity from my thread on design.. People ,like yourself are starting to think about design....or thinking more about it than before. I never promised than one project of focusing on design would make anyone a great designer. I have recieved private messages about what to do and some good suggestions. One which I am planning to take is to document one of my own woodworking projects from inception , design , chosing materials, construction, and finally finishing. I think this will be helpful, because each step of the way I will document making decisions we all must make for each project and why I chose a particulsr one. It means I will need to slow down and take a few pics to help visulize the process (and keep Tyler happy:eek: )

For your upcoming project though, I would move ahead. Try to find examples that give you a place to start. It really depends on what you like and what you feel you can successfully construct. You should design something you love that fits your ability and your workshop. Now, if you are missing a key tool...it is a good chance to buy it, knowing you need it for the project. Also if you have never made a special joint that is necessary...it is a great chance to improve your techiniques and skills. Reach a little with each project, but don't try something that will frustrate you because it is to difficult. Practice on a scrap piece, test yourself.
Once you find some personal inspiration...make it fit your eact situation...change it. Think about it , carry it with you. Make a scale drawing.
Make copies on a Xerox...sketch on them...cover them with tracing paper and experiment...be free. This is a process of developing sensitivity. Some of us see and hear the birds...each flower..the color the shape. You begin to see the world differently.

How do you know if all the design concepts belong? I always trust nature. If you look at a particular tree...that is one project. A Pepper tree is different than an Elm or a Sycamore...each leaf, large or small fits that tree...they are from the same species and belong...like family. If a branch of the Sycamore was growing from the Elm , it would look very strange. You need to look at each piece, each, material and form and even as seperate elements , they should feel united, or different enough that they contrast in a good way. Like a flower against the green foliage of a plant.
I have given you much to think about. The most important thing is your desire for a good design and you are aware that some parts often don't look like they belong...that is a major step. Keep me informed and I will try to help.

Tom LaRussa
12-08-2004, 2:58 PM
Hi Zahid,

I hope you don't mind if I toss in my $0.02 worth on this issue.


So what do you think would be a design track which culminates into one being able to visualize original designs, and not combines aspects of several others into a single product.
First off, there is no such design track, but don't let that bother you.

Secondly, reguarding the quest for originality, who says you must or should produce something "original"?

Indeed, I think we need to look at whether the word "original" has any real meaning -- and if so, how much meaning does it have? -- in the context of furniture design.

The basic pieces of furniture all have histories going back many centuries. Plato used the idea of "table" and "chair" something like 2500 years ago -- thus we know they were common objects prior to that time. Similarly, the dovetail joint goes back at least as far as ancient Egypt.

What I'm getting at is that given the long history of furniture it is highly unlikely that anybody is going to come up with a truly original design that is not in some way ridiculous -- whether completely impractical or just silly to look at.

Ikea, for example, sells a large number of "original" designs. But will anyone remember them 100 years from now? Will anyone buy them at auction 100 years from now?

I think not!

So, does this mean we should all just work from canned plans purchased from Rockler?

NO!

Not at all.

What I'm saying is that instead of striving to be different, what we should strive for is to be very good at what we do.

Consider the field of hi fidelity audio equipment.

As I understand it, at one time all audio equipment was full of vaccuum tubes. These tubes were eventually replaced with transistors, and now there are probably microprocessors inside many stereo sets. No longer is analogue information recorded on vinyl to be read by a diamond stylus. Instead we have digital information encoded onto a plastic disc which is then read by a laser.

BUT, my parents have a friend who designs and installs super-high end audio systems -- the kind that architects build into the houses of wealthy clients.

And guess what?

Most of the equipment he installs uses vaccuum tubes, and he sells more turn tables than CD players.

Why?

Because, apparently, the "true" audiophile will swear that the sound fed from a vinyl record by a diamond stylus through a vaccuum tube amplifier is simply better than the sound that is fed from a digital CD by a laser to an all-transister (and/or microchip) amp.

What does this have to do with furniture?

I'm getting there, (I think :D ).

Allow me to go back to Ikea for a moment. Besides the fact that some of their designs are silly to look at, the other major sin of Ikea (and its ilk) is that its furniture is junk. It's disposable, like a 29 cent razor. You use it for a while then when you move you put it out next to the dumpster.

Here is the point:

In today's world, if you really take the time to learn the craft of woodworking, then everything you make will be original as compared to 99.99% of all other furniture being produced.

************************************************** *******
Note: I'm out of time for now, but I have not yet completely composed what I'm trying to say, so I'm going to post this as is and come back to it later.

Jim Becker
12-08-2004, 3:49 PM
I can see what Tom is saying and it's true that there is little "true originality" this side of studio furniture, etc., and even there...well...there are strong "influences". While it's nice to experiement, building a number of projects of a particular style to refine your abilities and consistancy is very important to the design process for future projects. The consistancy is important because you cannot develop your own style without it! For example, there is a wonderful turner who posts on the AAW form as well as WoW. She specializes in small turned boxes and end-grain bowls for the most part, many of which have a geometric "crossword puzzle" design burned and colored on them or an "invisible" joint between a box and its top. These things have become a recognizable signature of hers even though she has not been turning "forever". Lately, she's started to alter the shape of her turnings but they are still immediately identifiable as hers...because she maintains consistancy on certain elements while changing other things. Mark's work, both in architecture and in woodworking, also exhibits certain things that are "his"...

I think that we all have the ablity to begin to develop something of our own style, even if it's something subtle, such as softening the line of a piece or varying the thickness of certain components to minutely change the overall "feel" of a piece. The key is the two words, "over time". It could be a certain combination of materials, a finish, some form of inlay...whatever. Something that takes a particular style and makes the piece or pieces "your own".

I certainly haven't found that yet, but I've only been woodworking for five or six years now. When it happens...it happens. In the mean time, learning is what it is about!

John Stevens
12-08-2004, 4:10 PM
To underscore what Tom said, I recently read a book on architectural design (The Old Way of Seeing, on Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039574010X/104-9491902-8035116?v=glance) and while I wouldn't recommend it as a good book on learning design, there was one good point, which I'll paraphrase:

perhaps the most difficult task for the modern designer is to come to terms with the ordinary

As a person who feels like he lacks in creativity, I've found that idea to be as comforting and liberating as it is challenging.

Mark Singer
12-08-2004, 4:10 PM
Jim,

Your message is very well stated. I never intended to descourage anyone from building anything, because even if it is not original something is learned and woodworking is a process....it is working , learning and improving. As Tom states most of the great designs for chairs, tables etc. have already been designed. You don't need to recreate the wheel from scratch...as you said Jim, take it and give it a bit of yourself and a bit of where it will sit in context with the room. It is a slow process...drawings are easier to change than apiece that is half built...carry it...think about it...a little nuance will make it special.
Tom, I know we have similar likes in many things, but while the furniture at IKEA is crap from a construcyion standpoint, I think many design are thoughtful and well proportioned. Although it is not Krenov , Wegner or Jacobsen it comes from the same part of the world and a great tradition of design. I have been asked to assemble some of that crap, and it is broken before I put it together....the particle board just crumbles.

Sometimes I just go in the shop take a scrap, plane it saw it, spokeshave make a shape....saw a bit on it...hit it with a mallet...throw it in the trash!
Yeah I like just playing with wood like everyone.
There is a moment though, when the song within each of us wants to be sung....that is a special moment! Embrace it!

Ryan Singer
12-27-2004, 1:24 PM
Dear Zahid,
I went to school for design and have some tips that either teachers gave me or I developed on my own. I do believe that you can create designs which are unique to your own spirit and will make you happy. you don't need to go to school to be great at anything... it's the small voice inside you that you need to trust and listen to. all it takes understanding fundamental concepts of what WE like and also honing our design-ablity skills to basic design problems which will get you started in the right direction.

we all like things. there are many things we don't like... there are the things we LOVE and it is these which we should try and understand. you must ask yourself a bunch of questions about these designs. WHY? WHY?? WHY????? a good way to do this is to make a scrapbook of designs you love, try and find the reason which makes the piece great. what do you like about the shape? about the way it functions? realize that beauty is also a function... are there ideas evoked from the design. what are these ideas? why?? more whys??? after you do this for many many designs, you might find common threads and themes in your reasons. don't be discouraged if you seem like the eclectic type, because that just means that you are more sophisticated than you realize and it might take more work. the thing about this is that we all change through time... that's the wonderful part about life and design.. design evolves as we do

another thing to do is to look at a design and try and fix it if you know a solution. we can always make a design better or more suitable for ourselves. for example, looking at a coffee mug... the handle would be better if it fit my fingers ( and they are this big...) that is a solution! it's that simple. . there are many other considerations, but it could be a shape that you think would be more suitable, or a texture, or a finish, or a color, material...etc. once you get the ball rolling, you might realize you have certain favorites. these create a style

after you have mastered the first 2 steps to understanding why you like things and starting to develop your design abilities, you might want to try designing something from scratch. this little trick takes a little meditation and might seem weird at first.

1 clear your mind of everything
2 think about all aspects of the problem, breaking it down into components of hierarchy. we all have our own personal criteria which shape our designs differently than one another. don't feel weird if you feel like you are the only one thinking what you are thinking.. there are many common ideas we all share because we are all connected. if you do create something unique, then that's great! don't be ashamed!
3 sketch it out your concept
4 figure out which method of construction is best for your concept. this is developing your design... your design might change a little here, but the better you understand your craft, the more able you are to stick to the concept

one thing I always had going for me was that I had the confidence to move ahead and not be scared. it's only a design. yes, you will come up with weird stuff at times... but don't be discouraged. take a chance, reinvent the wheel if you have to understand how it works. go head and be a rebel. sometimes you find something someone else might have missed. believe in yourself, your ability, and remember that if you can see it in your mind, there probably is a way to make it possible!! good luck!

Michael Cody
12-27-2004, 3:18 PM
I've been following the threads on design. I find them very thought provoking as I too am bored by the repetition of designs I see. But I see Mr. Singer's point in particular about IKEA ... I think some of the stuff ain't bad looking but it's built poorly. I've often argued about the old saying "They just don't make them like they used to!" ... my take being that while many antiques (not just furniture) are awesome -- most are built better .. why?? Were old time craftsman better, more meticulous, etc.. "NO" .. the junk built 100, 200 years ago was just as prevalent as now, but it ended up in the fireplace or junk pile, just like the IKEA stuff today will. The stuff we see now that was 100-200 years (or older) is the best stuff, the stuff that was built right or at least better so it lasted. One of my customers (I am an IBM Bus Partner Comp Tech) is a division of the folks who make Saunders Furniture, COSCO Kids Stuff, etc.. I have been in a warehouse that has 1.5 million square feet of DIY assemble furniture stacked 6 levels high. They bring 100 rail car loads of particle board and lift the whole car off at a time to feed automated cutting equipment.

What I am saying is design is a personal thing, you need to make yourself happy, don't worry what other folks think. Me I like mission stuff, don't care for most European stuff, love Asian influences too.. but what I always look for is how it's made. If Stickley or Greene built stuff that only lasted 6-10 years then was throw away -- bet they wouldn't have been the influence they are today. If you want your designs to pass the test of time, then execute them well and 200 years from now, your relatives might be able to sell them at the 2205 Antiques Road Show equivalent. Every design will have folks who love it, hate it, are indifferent too it.. Most great designs IMNSHO will have a point in the design that incites passion (be it love or hate - both are passions) but never indifference. If it's executed well, then it has a chance to influence others. At least you then know where you are in the world. You have to be true to yourself on that one and build stuff you like .. if you don't like it why build it?? (unless you are getting paid anyway).

Tom LaRussa
12-27-2004, 8:09 PM
Tom, I know we have similar likes in many things, but while the furniture at IKEA is crap from a construcyion standpoint, I think many design are thoughtful and well proportioned. Although it is not Krenov , Wegner or Jacobsen it comes from the same part of the world and a great tradition of design.
Hey, I said "some of their designs are silly to look at" -- not all of them. I actually like some of their stuff from a purely looks point of view. :)

Ryan Singer
12-27-2004, 10:16 PM
hey! don't make fun of IKEA!!! that's all I could afford for a while.. I am slowly getting off the IKEA kick. Actually, some of their products last longer than a year!

Zahid Naqvi
12-28-2004, 12:43 AM
As if the Arkies didn't feel isolated enough already, what is Ikea? I vaguely remember going into an Ikea showroom in Chicago (Ibelieve it was three stories tall, and a mall in itself). No such thing in Arkie land, which may not be a bad thing actually.

But I hear you Ryan, and Tom. Knowing my personality I know if I have to stick with this hobby for more than a couple of years I have to develop designs on my own, repetitive reconstruction of traditional styles is not my cup of tea. For now I am not too concerned about quality of construction or design, my immediate interest is in learning new joints with every project I do, but I also try to incorporate some personal twists in everything I make. As you guys said it's a personal journey and individual milage varies. I'm just fascinated by the immense communication possibilities the Internet offers us, even though I am a computer engineer myself and have been on the net since the late 80's. Can't imagine how else I would get such great advice from people like Mark and some of the other accomplished craftsmen.

Mark Singer
12-28-2004, 12:49 AM
Zahid,

Thank you ....it is a pleasure to share and help the rewards are in seeing others progress. You chart your own journey....I spent a great deal of time learning joinery and I still am learning...it is all part of the journey

Peter Hochmann
12-29-2004, 4:21 AM
I commented on another forum, that it is unlikely that one could create an original design in this era. A comment came back to me that, to limit oneself with such a position, is to deprive oneself of the "pot of gold" at the end of the rainbow.
After extensive reflection, of my skills, my eye, my appreciation, I am inclined to suggest that the pot of gold of creativity still exists. The difficulty one may face is looking at the box from the outside, inward....that is assuming that one can get themself out of the box.
We live in a society that bombards us with conformity from the moment we wake to the moment we close our eyes to rest. The quest for originality, therefore becomes even more paramount in my mind. Society says dipsy...I must doodle. What has created the most pleasure for me, is having fun with it along the way.