Sawstop competition or alternatives

[BOB OLINGER]

After accidently cutting my thumb on my Delta contractor table saw, I'm seriously considering putting a Sawstop in the budget. I was fortunate, my cut wasn't too deep, no cut tendons but a few nerves, 7 stitches. First accident like this in 40 yrs. My question - is there any other cabinet saws with Sawstop technology? It's amazing (at least to me) that Grizzly, Delta, and others haven't come up with similar equipment. I would appreciate any suggestions.

[Neal Clayton]

check the manual for your saw. it says...

1) don't put your hand in the path of the blade
2) use push sticks, not fingers
3) don't cut warped/twisted lumber on a table saw
4) maintain pressure against the fence or miter guage
5) don't freehand cuts
6) don't stand in the path of potential kick backs while ripping boards

do all of those things in the safety manual and you won't get hurt. and unlike sawstops, all of those things in your saw's safety manual are free. what a bargain!

[Van Huskey]

You have basically two options:

1. Get a Sawstop

2. make another saw as safe as possible:
a. get a "newer" saw with a true riving knife
b. get a quality over-arm guard (Brett, Excaliber etc) and use it
c. uses proper feeding devices (ie Grrripper) for dangerous cuts
d. be vigilent about safety

3. get a slider and make it as safe as possible with a mix of the above

With a true riving knife you will reduce the chance of kickback significantly and thus the associated hand in blade jerk. With a good solid over-arm guard you reduce the chance of hand to blade contact signficantly as well, with through and non-through cuts.

Lets not let this thread go downhill, don't forget the sticky on SS threads... :D

[Bruce Page]

Bob, to my knowledge SS is the only one with this technology. I would be surprised if some of the other manufactures weren’t at least looking at developing something along the same lines.

Neal, in a perfect world we wouldn’t need safety options, and people would never make a mistake. I’m not perfect, are you?

[Joe Mioux]

SS or Euro Sliders seem to be the safest (or safer) saws out there.

[Victor Robinson]

Let's just answer Bob's question and be done with it. I don't see a need to lecture or belittle him.

Bob, right now, there is no other saw with skin-cutting safety technology. There are whispers here and there of other companies developing similar tech, but nothing concrete. I imagine any competing designs/patents are at least a few years away. Even if other companies end up simply licensing SS technology, those saws are IMO also some time away.

As other mentioned, you could try making your current or a cheaper new saw safer by using more robust blade guards and safety devices.

Only you can decide whether SS technology is right for you.

[Myk Rian]

Let's just answer Bob's question and be done with it. I don't see a need to lecture or belittle him.
I agree.
There is only one saw with the technology. SawStop.
Instead of spending the bucks on that saw, I bought a couple Grr-Rippers.

[Vijay Kumar]

Sawstop has a patent and thus a lock on the technology for another 15 years ( a total of 20). Other manufacturers have tried to license it but have not come to terms with the pricing from SS.

Other flesh saving alternatives may be a track saw, or a euro slider.

Otherwise Sawstop is the only game in town.

Vijay

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Bob
If you are not using your blade guards or your saw did not come with any, check out Shark Guards. www.leestyron.com (http://www.leestyron.com) Tom

[Randal Stevenson]

There is a guard, that is similar tech to the sawstop (physical contact causes it to kill the saw), but it isn't on any by default yet. I also haven't seen reports that it can be bought separately yet.

[Dan Friedrichs]

There is a guard, that is similar tech to the sawstop (physical contact causes it to kill the saw), but it isn't on any by default yet. I also haven't seen reports that it can be bought separately yet.

I think it's called the "Whirlwind" or something, but isn't even close to being commercially available, and it's basically just a regular overarm guard that shuts the saw off if you touch it. Not very useful, IMHO...

[Rod Sheridan]

After accidently cutting my thumb on my Delta contractor table saw, I'm seriously considering putting a Sawstop in the budget. I was fortunate, my cut wasn't too deep, no cut tendons but a few nerves, 7 stitches. First accident like this in 40 yrs. My question - is there any other cabinet saws with Sawstop technology? It's amazing (at least to me) that Grizzly, Delta, and others haven't come up with similar equipment. I would appreciate any suggestions.

Hi Bob, I'm glad to hear that the injury wasn't more serious, and I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

SS is the only flesh sensing/blade braking system on the market.

I view SS as a secondary protection system, it's meant to save you from the extremely rare instance when blade guarding fails and you need a back up safety system.

Injury prevention is normally viewed in the following steps, with the first step being the most favourite.

1) Engineer out the hazard, for example use a mechanical feeder so people aren't involved

2) Provide suitable guards so that operators cannot contact the cutters, and use other devices such as push blocks etc.

3) Provide suitable personal protective equipment (glasses, ear muffs etc).

So for a table saw, always use a guard. If the stock guard doesn't work for the operation you have 2 choices, use a machine meant for that operation, or purchase/build a different guard that provides suitable protection.

For example, since most stock guards don't allow non through cuts, don't do them on the table saw, or purchase an overarm guard such as an Excalibur.

If you cannot come up with a guard for a tenon jig for example, don't use it on the saw. (That's why I now cut tenons on the shaper, an overhead guard and a dado cutter are also a suitable solution for a table saw).

The SS technology is ground breaking, and in my opinion the only significant improvement to the North American cabinet saw.

If you cannot train yourself to follow steps 1 through 3 above, then the SS is your only viable solution.

If you can retrain yourself to follow the above steps, and buy a SS as well, then you have a backup safety plan as well as a primary plan.

Personally, I wouldn't consider a saw without an overhead guard and a riving knife, that's the bare minimum.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. Then you can get into fence designs, the typical NA saw only has one fence configuration, Euro saws, and the Delta Unifence??? have 3 operating configurations to increase operator safety.

P.P.S. If you want could you provide some info such as the accident parameters such as operation, safety equipment in use at the time etc
?

[glenn bradley]

Bab made it pretty clear that this was the 'first blood', so to speak, in 40 years. I think we can assume he knows how to work around a saw. This one time, 'something' happened and it sounds as though he is interested in protecting against that rare occurrence should it come around again.

All that said, Saw Stop is the only machine with their technology.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread is now closed.

It has outlived it's useful purpose.


I reconsidered it. It was a lot of work but I edited out anything that wasn't directly related to the OPs topic......SawStop or any alternatives.

This thread is NOT about debating SawStop's history, or it's technology....it's about is there any alternatives available today.

If your post has been edited or deleted, it wasn't on topic or germane to the subject. Please stay on topic or the thread will be closed again.

[Rick Prosser]

As has been posted, SawStop is the only option TODAY with the technology that can be purchased.

The next question: When will there be other options, and can I (should I) wait until other options are available?

With all the publicity related to SawStop, I expect other options will come around sooner - rather than later.

Depending on how long it takes to save up the money, there may be something else available to purchase when the time comes. I have not seen/heard anything about what may be coming anytime soon - but maybe someone has ?:confused:

[jason lambert]

Simple answer, Sawstop is the only one with that technology and is a great saw it has all the other benifets as well now even including a overhead guard with close to 100% dust collection when used. Don't forget about our lungs.

I got it because I have been using a table saw 20 years with no problems but you never know I am not 100% all the time and my fathor uses it and in his old age has gotten quite jerky in his movements and likes to take short cuts, I can see him doing some thign stupid.

If you don't wat a saw stop and have the room the slider are really nice also and alot safer than us table saws.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am watching this thread closely.

The OPs topic was not theory or history.

Are there alternatives?

Postings with subjects other than the OPs original will be deleted.

[Chet Kagel]

Deleted - post off topic.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, and I think it was already mentioned, I think the Euro sliders are probably just as safe. No, the blade won't stop if you hit it but then again your fingers are never anywhere near the blade. The flaw with our table saws is the proximity of our fingers to the blade when we're using the tool properly. Take that away and the moment of inattention no longer ends in catastrophe.

As I've said in other threads, one of my few tool regrets is that I didn't simply buy a slider instead of the SS. A Euro slider combo machine would have made me one happy camper, and my wallet would have been over the sting by now.

[Will Overton]

FWIW, and I think it was already mentioned, I think the Euro sliders are probably just as safe. No, the blade won't stop if you hit it but then again your fingers are never anywhere near the blade. The flaw with our table saws is the proximity of our fingers to the blade when we're using the tool properly. Take that away and the moment of inattention no longer ends in catastrophe.

As I've said in other threads, one of my few tool regrets is that I didn't simply buy a slider instead of the SS. A Euro slider combo machine would have made me one happy camper, and my wallet would have been over the sting by now.

Is a slider an alternative to a SS, safety wise, when doing narrow rip cuts?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,


This thread is not for testimonials.....it is not about theory.....it is not about SS history....


It is about alternatives or competition for SS technology.


Stay on subject. I will remove any off topic posts.


Please show a little discipline and stay on topic.

[John Coloccia]

Is a slider an alternative to a SS, safety wise, when doing narrow rip cuts?

I can't say I've ever done narrow rips on a slider. My guess would using hold downs with the slider would be the ticket. Of course if you're taking 1/8" slices off a 1/2" stick, that may not work, but I don't know that I'd consider that a safe cut on a SS either...well at least not if you push all the way past the blade. Then again, if you stop short and turn around, you run the risk of kickback and burning. I'm sure someone with a Euro slider will chime in on how they make those kinds of cuts. That really is the only alternative out there at the moment, though, at least until you start getting into industrial machinery that takes the operator right out of the equation entirely. Stop the blade or keep the fingers away in the first place, right? I'd almost have to give a Euro slider a slight advantage, in fact. The way they're configured, I'm not sure what you'd have to do in order to get a kick back. That's also a leading cause of hand injuries.

[Rod Sheridan]

I can't say I've ever done narrow rips on a slider. My guess would using hold downs with the slider would be the ticket. Of course if you're taking 1/8" slices off a 1/2" stick, that may not work, but I don't know that I'd consider that a safe cut on a SS either...well at least not if you push all the way past the blade. Then again, if you stop short and turn around, you run the risk of kickback and burning. I'm sure someone with a Euro slider will chime in on how they make those kinds of cuts. That really is the only alternative out there at the moment, though, at least until you start getting into industrial machinery that takes the operator right out of the equation entirely. Stop the blade or keep the fingers away in the first place, right? I'd almost have to give a Euro slider a slight advantage, in fact. The way they're configured, I'm not sure what you'd have to do in order to get a kick back. That's also a leading cause of hand injuries.

Hi John, when making narrow rip cuts the Euro slider I own (Hammer B3) is safer than the cabinet saw it replaced (General 650).

It's not safer due to the slider aspect however, it's safer due to the multi-position rip fence and having a riving knife instead of that in the way splitter/anti-kickback pawl contraption.

The multi position rip fence is similar to the Delta Uni-fence.

1) It can be used in normal configuration as a tall fence

2) It can be used as a tall fence pulled back towards the operator so it doesn't extend past the leading edge of the blade, very useful for ripping solid wood as the stock is never between the blade and the fence.

3) it can be used as a low fence (1/2"??) in either position for ripping bevels or narrow strips.

The #3 setting is what makes narrow strips on a slider so safe, the fence doesn't obstruct your use of push sticks or other pushing devices so you never are tempted to remove the blade guard.

You are correct however that cutting narrow strips from a narrow board is unsafe on any table saw. That's what a shaper with a feeder is for.

Regards, Rod.

[jason lambert]

One thing to consider readign Chets thread above Sawstop is not improving quality over all once that break engages and stopes the blade the mistake has already happened. Euro sliders improve the process to prevent the mistake in the first place and do much better at large materal handeling. Really depends on what you want a saw for and what you are comfortable with which way you go.

[BOB OLINGER]

Thanks for all of the responses. My post was only intended to confirm my suspicion that SS was the only manufacturer offering this type of technology. Given the replies, it appears so. Now, for my accident - and I would like to share with all the 'creekers - no mater how many years and no matter how safe you think you're operating, my experience reconfirmed accidents can happen and in a split second. FYI, I was using a push stick with my right hand. However, my left hand got too close to the blade as it was being used to clear the cut-off section; my thumb accidently touched the blade as I pushed the cut-off aside with my fingers. I realize this isn't safe operating procedure and I offer it as testimony to others to be careful. Given my experience, I am rethinking the purchase of a safer saw; thus, the question posted.

[Van Huskey]

Thanks for all of the responses. My post was only intended to confirm my suspicion that SS was the only manufacturer offering this type of technology. Given the replies, it appears so. Now, for my accident - and I would like to share with all the 'creekers - no mater how many years and no matter how safe you think you're operating, my experience reconfirmed accidents can happen and in a split second. FYI, I was using a push stick with my right hand. However, my left hand got too close to the blade as it was being used to clear the cut-off section; my thumb accidently touched the blade as I pushed the cut-off aside with my fingers. I realize this isn't safe operating procedure and I offer it as testimony to others to be careful. Given my experience, I am rethinking the purchase of a safer saw; thus, the question posted.

Bob, I am not laying blame or anythng of the sort I am just curious: Was this a cut a standard guard or overarm guard could have been used for. I ask this first since there are a few cuts that are difficult to do with either of the guards in place. If it was a cut a guard could have been used was it in place? Again I am NOT throwing rocks since my house is made from glass forged from the grains of sand collected one for each time I have not used a proper guard on a machine, instead I am curious if a better designed and easier to use guard were available would it have been more likely to be in place.

[BOB OLINGER]

Hi Van,

Thanks for the interest. There were no guards in place at the time of my accident. A standard, come-with-the machine very likely would have prevented the accident. FYI, I grew up at the time in which there wasn't such as a guard (at least that I can remember). I believe my first table saw which my Dad purchased for me in about 1974 (9" Delta) may of had one, but never installed. I used this saw until about 2008, never with a guard. I upgraded to a 10" Delta contractor that I purchased at a garage sale. The guard came with but not installed. However, after my accident, I acquainted myself with the guard and installed it for a while. Given 40 yrs+ of home workshop and likely less than desirable safety habbits, I've got to get familiar with the guard that came with, buy and use a better upgrade guard, or upgrade further to the SawStop. That was the basis for my original question. Hope this answers your question.

[Mike Cross]

I know this is an older thread, but to answer your question there is a competitive product to the Sawstop and it is non-destructive to the blade. Tou can reset and continue working in seconds. Here is the link http://www.whirlwindtool.com/. Check it out, it can be retrofited to many saws. Not sure of the availability date but looks good to me. I just learned of it today and haven't read everything but looks promising.
It has built in dust collection and a light.

No affiliation, just passing on the info.

Mike

[Mike Goetzke]

How about a track saw system? I bought a rail after stalling my 3hp Uni pushing a full sheet of ply through by myself (even with in/out support). It happened to be from Eurekazone that uses any circular saw but there are many others out there. Even though I have a Uni I make all but a few cuts with my track saw equipment. These systems have expanded well beyond just clamping a rail to a board - do some research & hope you thumb heals quickly.

Mike

[David Kumm]

Mike, There are some videos over on OWWM but I think the info is a year or two old. Is your news more recent? Dave

[Chris Fournier]

The alternative to SS is safe practices and a kerf splitter. Is this alternative adequate for you? I don't know. I now have a slider and it is great but the safety aspect of a slider is often blown out of proportion in my opinion. If you work sheet goods, rough and finished lumber and you rip as well as crosscut the slider is a biter too. Unless you have a system that stops an exposed blade dead in it's tracks you are exposed to danger.

[David Kumm]

Chris, I agree with you regarding rips on the slider. As much as I like my slider, for whatever reason I find myself ripping on my old Rockwell 12-14 about 75% of the time. Two grrippers give me as much comfort as anything. Dave

[Don Bullock]

Bob,
You may want to look at a fairly recent post over on the Fine Woodworking website.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/40477/blade-brake-inventor-aims-to-compete-with-sawstop?&lookup=auto&V18=E&V19=0&V20=7&V21=E&V22=&V23=0&V24=0&V25=0&V26=0&V53=01-JUN-2008&V54=11.49&Taun_Per_Flag=true&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=20110903-sketchup-cabinet&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking
(http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/40477/blade-brake-inventor-aims-to-compete-with-sawstop?&lookup=auto&V18=E&V19=0&V20=7&V21=E&V22=&V23=0&V24=0&V25=0&V26=0&V53=01-JUN-2008&V54=11.49&Taun_Per_Flag=true&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=20110903-sketchup-cabinet&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking)
This is the only thing that I've seen that comes close to the SawStop technology.

Like others have said, I'm sure there are other similar projects in the works. Once I convinced my wife that I needed a new table saw and she gave me the go ahead for a SawStop ICS I decided I couldn't wait for someone else to come up with a competitive product. If I had known more about sliders and perhaps been comfortable with them I might have explored them before I bought the SawStop.

[george wilson]

A blade can do plenty of damage in 1/8 second.

[Brian Kent]

Hey Bob,

Since this happened 16 months ago, how are you doing?

Brian

[Mark Engel]

A blade can do plenty of damage in 1/8 second.

Yes it can.

The Whirlwind system detects at the blade guard, not the blade itself. It triggers when you touch the guard as opposed to the blade. So the brake stops the blade when your finger is still an inch or so away from the blade. You could not get your finger to travel that one inch in 1/8 second without having some pretty impressive hand speed. Plus, you still have to get your finger/hand past the guard.

The downside of the Whirlwind is on those occasions when you use the saw without the blade guard in place like very narrow rips, etc.

[Peter Aeschliman]

You could not get your finger to travel that one inch in 1/8 second without having some pretty impressive hand speed.

I know this is maybe going a little off course for this thread... but I can't resist!

The only use case I can think of is kickback. When I got drilled in the forehead a month ago, it was unbelievable how fast the workpiece came at me. I literally did not see it. So if you were pushing a piece with your hand, and at the moment the piece kicked back you had your hand near the blade, I suppose your hand could be thrown into the blade at that kind of speed.

But to your point, you'd still have to get your hand past the guard. That means the guard has to be incredibly strong so that it doesn't get knocked out of the way by kickback. Assuming this is an overarm style guard (so that you could use it for non-through cuts), it would also require the user to be very diligent about adjusting the blade guard height so that the workpiece can only barely fit under it.

Anyway, I love to see competition. I like the idea of making the table saw safer but this one seems to have enough limitations in its effectiveness that I can't see it truly competing with SS.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'd have to agree with Peter, I had a kickback on my router table. Luckily I was using Grippers, and the router took out some of the Gripper. If not.......... Who knows. BUT it happened WAY faster than 1/8 second. BAM and I felt the router bit chewing up the Gripper. TOO LATE.

It happens in a flash. Use whatever safety gear you can.

[Brent Ring]

I was in the almost same boat as the OP. I almost sprung for a SS, and then went with the Grizzly 6023x slider instead and have been very happy and feel very, very safe either to the right or to the left of the blade. Personally, the best solution would be the flesh sensing technology on a slider... :)

[Peter Aeschliman]

I was in the almost same boat as the OP. I almost sprung for a SS, and then went with the Grizzly 6023x slider instead and have been very happy and feel very, very safe either to the right or to the left of the blade. Personally, the best solution would be the flesh sensing technology on a slider... :)

Here here! There was a thread on this exact topic recently. Apparently SS is planning on making a full slider sometime in the next few years. Judging by how expensive their cabinet saws are, I can't imagine their slider will be a "budget" machine though!

[BOB OLINGER]

Hi Brian,

Yes, a bit of water over the dam since my original post. FYI, I purchased a sawstop in early Jan. 2011. Everything is going fine, so far. Thanks.

bob o

[John Coloccia]

My opinion:

The right solution is to simply license the technology. Not sure how feasible that is anymore given SawStop's success. It all very much reminds of of the Floyd Rose tremelo. They got it right and everybody licensed it. Everyone made money, and life was good.

The current situation is a complete mess. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, to be quite honest. If we're going to look at it objectively, however, the SS technology is far superior....IN MY OPINION. I would like to see a competitor but I don't think the guard sensor solution is quite it, though it does fill a completely different niche that SawStop has left wide open.

There's room for both, but I just don't see them as being in competition with each other, anymore than a 3 point restraint competes with a full 5 point restraint. Two completely different systems with similar goals, but much different effectiveness, convenience and cost profiles.

[Don Bullock]

Hi Brian,

Yes, a bit of water over the dam since my original post. FYI, I purchased a sawstop in early Jan. 2011. Everything is going fine, so far. Thanks.

bob o

Congratulations Bob. Enjoy!!!!