Fore or Scrub Dilemna

[John Marchesan]

A while back I posted about which planes to buy, thanks for the advice. I ended up with a LV LA Jack and Jointer which I have been playing with. I was trying to flatten some hard maple approximately 6" wide by 5 ft long and had a bear of a time. I was using stock blades that were honed to 8000 grit. I could never get gull length shaving going with the grain but across the grain with the Jack was fine.

It was also very slow with the Jack. I have since tried to camber the Jack blade (LV Camber roller on sandpaper) and it helped but the blade was ugly and chipped up pretty fast (about a 28 degree micro bevel).

To speed things up I was wondering about either getting an old #5 and set it as a fore plane, or get a new LV scrub. There seems to be much debate about which to use. I do not have a powered jointer or planer so all board prep will be by hand and was wondering what the current opinions were.

[Bill Houghton]

A scrub plane will make furrows maybe 1/16" to 1/8" deep. If you're buying rough stock and doing serious stock cleanup or reduction, I personally think a scrub makes a lot of sense.

A cambered jack plane will do a much shallower furrow, suitable for less drastic hogging out, or making the transition from the scrub plane's furrows toward your final smoothing.

No. 5 jacks are cheap enough on the intertubes that, unless money is really tight, no reason you can't have both.

[Jim Koepke]

Pictures of the shavings might help.

Also, knowing how thick of a shaving you were trying to take could be helpful information.

Were you experiencing tear out?

Did you try planing "against" the grain. In my experience, sometimes the way a grain looks best to plane is not the best way to plane.

Finally, how do you test the sharpness of your blade when honing? Can it cut through a piece of paper or be used to smoothly shave hair?

jim

[John Stan]

A while back I posted about which planes to buy, thanks for the advice. I ended up with a LV LA Jack and Jointer which I have been playing with. I was trying to flatten some hard maple approximately 6" wide by 5 ft long and had a bear of a time. I was using stock blades that were honed to 8000 grit. I could never get gull length shaving going with the grain but across the grain with the Jack was fine.

It was also very slow with the Jack. I have since tried to camber the Jack blade (LV Camber roller on sandpaper) and it helped but the blade was ugly and chipped up pretty fast (about a 28 degree micro bevel).

To speed things up I was wondering about either getting an old #5 and set it as a fore plane, or get a new LV scrub. There seems to be much debate about which to use. I do not have a powered jointer or planer so all board prep will be by hand and was wondering what the current opinions were.
I have a scrub plane for the purpose you described. It works very well for its intended purpose. I also have Bedrock Jack for takins off lesser amounts of wood. I find that the combination scrub and jack works well for rough cut lumber. If I recall correctly, the expense of the scrub plane was not that drastic (I have a LN, but a vintage or lee valley would also work)

[Neil Zenuk]

I think you'd be best served with an old #5 as a fore plane. They're a dime a dozen and having a dedicated fore plane is a must in any neanderthal tool kit. Any plane that's worth buying is in good enough shape to start acting as a fore plane with minimal work. Open the mouth and shape and sharpen the blade to 8" radius curve. 8" seems to be a good compromise between hogging off and flattening vs. the 3" of a scrub. If you check out the woodworking magazine blog The Schwarz has loads of info on fore planes.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I personally prefer either a fore plane or an old jack with a radiused blade turning it into a fore plane. I had a #40 scrub but found that it was next to useless face planing on long or really wide boards. It just simply isn't long or wide enough and if used agressively tends to dig in and tear out too much. Scrubs like the #40, #40 1/2, or the LV are more suited to rough stock removal on the edge of boards rather than the face. I believed this strongly enough that I sold the #40.

[Bruce Haugen]

I've wanted a scrub for a long time - haven't had one, but I do have two #5's. One is treated as a proper #5 (Winchester, btw) and the other is a dogmeat 1950's with no real character. The dogmeat 5 is set up with a strongly radiused iron and the frog as far back as possible. It will wear me out pretending it's a scrub. Truth is, I really don't need a scrub. Want and need sometimes are miles apart.

[Rick Erickson]

They both can function the same. However, for boards 6" wide I prefer a scrub. You can rip cross-grain or diagonally with your scrub very quickly with a board this size. As the board gets wider you will want to go with a fore plane. I was trying to use a scrub on some 24" wide walnut and it was tiresome. I bought a number 5 and it was quicker work. If you are going to dimension by hand I would suggest you own both.

[Sean Hughto]

Imagine how long it would take to rehab a chpped blade with only a 8000 grit stone. But with a course stone or, better yet, a grinding wheel, it's much faster. The other day I need to take about 3/8ths off the face of a blank I wanted to turn. I thought of my scrub, but when I tried it out, I realized that was going to be too slow. I tried my sculptor's adze, which made quick work of the job, then followed with the scrub, and then a bit with the jacl to get to the flat realiteively smooth surface I needed. That's all a long way to say, that yup, prepping a board with a twist or cup using only a jack, is going to take a long time. I scrub is excellent to start the job though, then follow with the jack. By the way, I never take any 1/8th inch bites with my scrub - don't know what others do, but I couldn't puch it through with that kinds of bite. While the scrub's shavings seem thick (compared to the onion paper thin shavings you might see from a corse set jack, they are not 1/8th inch thick or even close. I find for board prep work, think about working diagonal strokes towards the middle of the board. The jack too is good on diagonals or even stright across the grain for rough work. While the jack's sole helps to get to flat, with the scrub on a face work, you need to figure out the high spots (winding sticks, just referencing by laying the face against your workbench top, etc.), take a set of passes, and then recheck. Rinse and repeat as needed. It's a good work out too.

[Tom Henderson2]

a five-foot long board is pretty long... you might start developing your skills on something shorter... 12" to 18" for example...

[Derek Cohen]

A while back I posted about which planes to buy, thanks for the advice. I ended up with a LV LA Jack and Jointer which I have been playing with. I was trying to flatten some hard maple approximately 6" wide by 5 ft long and had a bear of a time. I was using stock blades that were honed to 8000 grit. I could never get gull length shaving going with the grain but across the grain with the Jack was fine.

It was also very slow with the Jack. I have since tried to camber the Jack blade (LV Camber roller on sandpaper) and it helped but the blade was ugly and chipped up pretty fast (about a 28 degree micro bevel).

To speed things up I was wondering about either getting an old #5 and set it as a fore plane, or get a new LV scrub. There seems to be much debate about which to use. I do not have a powered jointer or planer so all board prep will be by hand and was wondering what the current opinions were.

John

One option is to buy another blade for the LAJ and then grind and hone it according to my pictorial ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

You want this ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades_html_m4dd74105.jp g

... to end up with this ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades_html_m22d070e1.jp g

Note that the cutting angle you ended up with - 40 degrees (28 degree bevel on 12 degree bed) - is far, far too low for using the LAJ (or any other) as a jack plane. You need a cutting angle of about 30 degrees.

The alternative is a #5 or #5 1/2 Stanley with a similarly cambered blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Carl Miller]

Hi John
I only use my #40 when I'm smoothing a log side that's been chain sawn before I start re-sawing on the band saw. That's about the only time I've found a #40 useful. For preping a board I start with a #5 with a slight camber and go to it on a diagonal and sometimes cross-grain. Then I work it length wise with a long plane until I'm happy.

[Steve Dallas]

A while back I posted about which planes to buy, thanks for the advice. I ended up with a LV LA Jack and Jointer which I have been playing with. I was trying to flatten some hard maple approximately 6" wide by 5 ft long and had a bear of a time. I was using stock blades that were honed to 8000 grit. I could never get gull length shaving going with the grain but across the grain with the Jack was fine.

It was also very slow with the Jack. I have since tried to camber the Jack blade (LV Camber roller on sandpaper) and it helped but the blade was ugly and chipped up pretty fast (about a 28 degree micro bevel).

To speed things up I was wondering about either getting an old #5 and set it as a fore plane, or get a new LV scrub. There seems to be much debate about which to use. I do not have a powered jointer or planer so all board prep will be by hand and was wondering what the current opinions were.

A wooden Jack is a reasonable 'substitute' for a scrub plane. With an open mouth and a cambered, thick iron heck it IS a scrub plane for all practical purposes. Smooth runnin' too - wood on wood is heavenly. Conversely, I don't like a metal jack as a substitute for a metal scrub plane. Sure, you can open the mouth and you can install a thicker iron and put a nice camber on it, I frankly find them too heavy (and I'm neither small, nor unfit, nor weak). There's just something about them I find uncomfortable vs. their wooden brethren when used for the same purpose - removal of bulk amounts of material. So, if you intend to stay in the realm of iron planes (just the phrase makes my elbow start hurting) then go ahead and buy a dedicated metal scrub plane.

Of course, you could just get an ECE wooden scrub plane and have the best of several worlds - lightweight, wood on wood action, stout and stoutly curved/cambered iron, all the attributes that contribute to removing a lot of wood with the least amount of orthopedic bad outcomes.

I use hand planes day in and day out and I've banished iron planes, other than for a Record 405, from the workshop. Well, not banished entirely, they are sitting in a box awaiting a round 'tuit of some sort.

I couldn't possibly describe how tickled I am to be out of the bevel-up, low-angled this, high-angled that, which steel is best, rat race. All of which, for the most part, are a distraction and a big load of bunk.

[William Hovis]

Of course, you could just get an ECE wooden scrub plane and have the best of several worlds - lightweight, wood on wood action, stout and stoutly curved/cambered iron, all the attributes that contribute to removing a lot of wood with the least amount of orthopedic bad outcomes.

+1 on the ECE wooden scrub plane. I've had one for about 4 years and I love it.

[Mark Stutz]

I could never get gull length shaving going with the grain but across the grain with the Jack was fine.

I

Not sure at what point in the process you were trying for full shavings, but that is the last step...with the smoother. You really aren't looking for full length shavings. With the fore plane you're rapidly removing stock, to get to the jack which I use to refine the surface. Take off the high spots and work toward flat, but flat does not equal smooth. Final flattening is with the jointer. Here I usually try for pretty good long shavings depending on how near the finished dimension I am at the time.

Now I'll be the last one to try to dissuade you from a new plane:D, but like others, the best use of the metal scrub, i.e. #40, is to reduce the width of the board.

+1 on the ECE wooden scrub. I do use that on smaller boards for initial prep. Light weight so you can really work quickly.

Mark