Grizzly TS motor question

[Kevin Begos]

I've been going back and forth between buying the Grizzly GO 690 and the new 1023RL, and noticed this difference in 3hp motor specs on the two:

690: 220V / 12.8 amps
1023RL: 220V / 18 amps

This seems like a surprising difference in amps on motors that are both 3hp and on very similar saws. Am I correct that the 18 amp motor would have higher torque?

I've read some of the previous posts on general HP q's, and I know in practical terms there's probably little actual difference in the two. Just wondering about the spec on the new 1023RL (which I know is on backorder).

(and I know I'll probably be happy whichever one I choose)

When I looked at Leeson specs it seems the higher amp 3hp motors are what goes on Unisaws.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Kevin,

Did you call Grizzly to see if this was a typo on one or the other.

Unless there is a significant difference in the efficiency between the two motors, I'd think the current would be the same or approximately the same not 50% dfference, however.

[Van Huskey]

Power factor / energy factor without knowing it is just a crap shoot.

You probably will not see a difference in the real world between the two other than current draw.

Given the choice though I would prefer a American made Baldor or Leeson to an Asian motor.

[Kevin Begos]

Good point, might be a typo. I'll call them tomorrow and see.

Only other difference I see is they say the 690 has a Leeson motor.

[Dick Strauss]

is one 3ph?

[Van Huskey]

is one 3ph?

Nope, number he gave are 1ph.

[Jim O'Dell]

The 690 and 691s do have a Leeson motor. I've stated before, it is built in China. The amp per hp works out the same as the 5 hp Leeson on my cyclone, and it is made in the US. This has come up before, as the older style 1023 also had the 18 amp rating. I can only attribute the difference to the design of the motor, but I'm not an electrical engineer, an electric motor expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night. I just don't have any clue as to what else it could be. But I do feel like if the 18 amp rating on the 1023 motor was a typo, it would have been corrected sometime in the last 5 or 6 years.
Another place to look to try to verify is to download the owner's manuals from Grizzly's site, and see if they concur. Of course the phone call might work too. ;) Jim.

[Kevin Begos]

Both 1 phase, and both listed as 3450 rpm.
Both listed as 3hp.

[Kevin Begos]

Thanks, Jim.
Will update after I call Grizzly tomorrow.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Kevin,

Talk with Grizzly and find out for sure that the G0690 is truly a 3 HP.

I looked at both the spec sheets and the owners manual for the two saws. The 690 in both says 12.8 amps and calls for a 6-20 plug with a minimum circuit breaker size of 20 amp. The 1023RL on the other hand says 18 amps in the spec sheet...calls for a 6-30 plug and a minimum circuit breaker size of 30 amps. Both saws at 220/230 vac, of course.

The 1023RL is so new I couldn't even find an owner's manual yet. I got it's information from the spec sheet.

I don't think it's a misprint but it would be interesting to find out if both are the same HP, why one would be so much more inefficient. 50% more power is a significant difference in my world.

[Jeff Bratt]

Both 12 (or 13) and 18 amps are believable as amperage ratings for a 3 HP - 230V motor. These numbers represent both ends of the efficiency range for induction motors. At least one of the on-line owners manuals for a Grizzly 1023 saw also specs an 18 amp motor. Starting in the 1990s there was a push by both governments and manufacturers to increase motor efficiency. The newest motor designs keep squeezing more HP out of fewer amps. While there are ways to estimate HP from amperage, you have to remember that the real HP performance data is the torque and speed of the motor. I wouldn't worry about this detail of the specs for either of these saws.

[Van Huskey]

Both 12 (or 13) and 18 amps are believable as amperage ratings for a 3 HP - 230V motor. These numbers represent both ends of the efficiency range for induction motors. .

I agree. 13 amps is pretty efficient and 18 is pretty inefficient for a 3hp motor. I will be honest though and say that I don't have a lot of faith even in induction motor ratings (though much less inflated than universal motors). I have a feeling the Leeson is actually a little light in the loafers relatively, for example Baldor's premium efficiency motors draw about 12.5 amps for a 3 hp rated general purpose motor which lists for about 75% of what a 690 costs.


In the end I think the amperage draws are correct and the 1023 does have an older less efficient motor and quite frankly neither probably produce as much HP as a 3hp American made Baldor or Lesson. That said in the real world I doubt one would ever see a real difference in power output. Standards for rating motors are just too unregulated to be more than a rough estimate.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree. 13 amps is pretty efficient and 18 is pretty inefficient for a 3hp motor. I will be honest though and say that I don't have a lot of faith even in induction motor ratings (though much less inflated than universal motors). I have a feeling the Leeson is actually a little light in the loafers relatively, for example Baldor's premium efficiency motors draw about 12.5 amps for a 3 hp rated general purpose motor which lists for about 75% of what a 690 costs.


In the end I think the amperage draws are correct and the 1023 does have an older less efficient motor and quite frankly neither probably produce as much HP as a 3hp American made Baldor or Lesson. That said in the real world I doubt one would ever see a real difference in power output. Standards for rating motors are just too unregulated to be more than a rough estimate.


I agree except for the comment regarding standards.

A premium efficiency/power factor 3 HP motor will be around 12.5 to 13 amperes.

Induction motors are tested to very comprehensive standards if the manufacturer wants to have a NEMA or IEC rating on their motor.

The issue is if they don't want to, they build whatever they please, to any or no standard.

Unfortunately many people equate motor current to power output, believing that a 19 amp motor must have more power output than a 13 ampere motor.

Regards, Rod.

[Curt Harms]

Unisaws were rated around 13 amps FLA for years. G1023's in the late '90s were rated at 18 amps. It sounds like they still are. I've never put an ammeter on mine and run 3" oak through it to run it at max load so I don't know what the Grizzly motors will actually draw. I very much doubt they're as efficient as Leesons, Chinese manufacture or not.

[Kevin Begos]

Thanks, all.

Spoke to Grizzly and the tech had general answers that suggest the efficient/inefficient answer sums it up - the motors come from different factories. Said he's never noticed a difference in how the two saw lines cut wood.

I always like things that are well built and this makes me partial to the 690,
even if I know the 1023 will cut wood just fine.

[Jeff Bratt]

In the end I think the amperage draws are correct and the 1023 does have an older less efficient motor and quite frankly neither probably produce as much HP as a 3hp American made Baldor or Lesson. That said in the real world I doubt one would ever see a real difference in power output. Standards for rating motors are just too unregulated to be more than a rough estimate.

I have no reason to believe that motor with a NEMA nameplate is incorrectly rated. Standards for rating induction motors are pretty stringent, unlike the unbelievable HP fantasies (http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Ejeffnann/WoodWorking/Shop/HP/Horsepower.html) that are common in smaller tools, generally powered by universal motors. The Premium efficiency NEMA ratings have significantly lowered the expected current draw per HP of some newer motors, and we may have to adjust the "amps per HP" rule in the future as these higher efficiency motors become more and more widely used. But the rule of 10 amps per HP at 120V and 5 amps per HP at 240 V is still a pretty good estimate - with 3 HP=15A(240V) falling right in the middle of the numbers quoted for the two Grizzly saws above.

I've seen current ratings for 3 HP motors at less than 12A/230V. As manufacturers push for the latest Premium efficiency ratings, technical advances in motor design keep decreasing the electric input power required. It's real improvement, not just marketing hype.

[Chip Lindley]

My Powermatic 66 Baldor 3hp motor is 230V/15A. I have an aftermarket Leeson 3hp Unisaw motor, 230V/16A. And the 3hp Leeson on my Oneida DC is 230V/14A. Of course they are all over 10 years old. But they give a good ballpark figure for 3hp amperage of commercial-grade TEFC motors. It is hard for average consumers to tell whether increased efficiency, gross inefficiency or seller hype play any part in putting a horsepower label on any motor, without being able to put a meter and dynamometer on them.

Imo, unless a very state-of-the-art, efficient motor is rated at 3hp/12A, there is some hype involved. I have several 2hp motors in that range. Rockwell RC33 planer with a Rockwell (Marathon-made) 2hp, 12A motor. Even ShopFox moulder's 2hp Asian motor is 12A. Delta 2hp single-stage DC with usa-made TEFC motor is 10.2A. Odd about those smaller amperage DC motors...

[Jeff Bratt]

My Powermatic 66 Baldor 3hp motor is 230V/15A. I have an aftermarket Leeson 3hp Unisaw motor, 230V/16A. And the 3hp Leeson on my Oneida DC is 230V/14A. Of course they are all over 10 years old. But they give a good ballpark figure for 3hp amperage of commercial-grade TEFC motors. It is hard for average consumers to tell whether increased efficiency, gross inefficiency or seller hype play any part in putting a horsepower label on any motor, without being able to put a meter and dynamometer on them.

Imo, unless a very state-of-the-art, efficient motor is rated at 3hp/12A, there is some hype involved. I have several 2hp motors in that range. Rockwell RC33 planer with a Rockwell (Marathon-made) 2hp, 12A motor. Even ShopFox moulder's 2hp Asian motor is 12A. Delta 2hp single-stage DC with usa-made TEFC motor is 10.2A. Odd about those smaller amperage DC motors...

There is information on the Premium efficiency motor program at http://www.nema.org/gov/energy/efficiency/premium/. The new standards for motor efficiency are significantly higher than "standard practices" of the past. While the program and performance specs are specifically targeted at 3-phase motors - the design and manufacturing improvements can be carried over into single motors as well.

With all the marketing hype around the way-overrated small universal motors, it's easy to understand some skepticism. But there real differences - like using copper instead of aluminum in the rotor squirrel cages - that yield significant performance improvements. Do you have any information that the NEMA manufacturers - who have a history of being straighforward about their motor performance ratings - are somehow now being less than truthful?

[Chip Lindley]

Jeff, I made ample reference to the fact all my machine motors are *older*. I also gave creedence to the fact newer motors may include better efficiency at lower amp draw. I have no *information* to dispute NEMA. No doubt new motors produced to Premium Efficiency Program criteria have stickers all over them touting that fact. Any other motor of lesser amperage draw might become suspect to the layman with no EE degree. I just call 'em like I see em!

Come to think of it, the hype is usually totally the reverse concerning commonly-imported capacitor-start motors. Many machines include a bigger (no doubt cheaper) motor, rated at a higher horsepower, which either does more work (or wastes more amps) to do the same work.

Case in point: The DJ20 8" jointer clones include a 3hp/18A motor (same as in the OP's TS motor question) where the real DJ20 must make do with it's 1.5hp/8.4A motor. I have failed to bog down my grossly underpowered DJ20 yet! But, a cheaply-made 1.5hp import motor might not endure; it might go into meltdown before the warranty is out. So, in effect, this reverse hype entices buyers who are attracted to all that extra Horsepower! Bigger, cheaper motors in less demanding applications, which may improve the motor's longivity? hmm...

[Kevin Begos]

Thanks for all the good technical info.
I just went to a Leeson motor spec page, since we know the 690 has a Leeson motor.

And they list a 3hp, 1 phase 230v woodworking motor at 13 amps - right near the 12.8 Grizzly is listing.

http://www.clrwtr.com/PDF/LEESON/LEESON-Woodworking-Motors.pdf