Cabinet or Hybrid TS v Jobsite: Space Issues Etc

[John Mark Lane]

This may seem like kind of an odd (ie, dumb) question, but I'm gonna go for it anyway.

I've already bored some of you with my space limitation (16 by 10) and the small shop I'm setting up in the space. I have been planning to upgrade my Delta Shopmaster TS to something like the Bosch jobsite saw. The idea is to get as much saw as I can out of a small space, and have something I can roll around as needed. I'll mostly be making small things like boxes, small tables, odds and ends. Maybe a chair here and there. But working with hardwoods, mostly 4/4 or maybe 6/4, the rare 8/4 piece. Total amateur weekend shop, place to teach my kids etc. Dust collection is an important factor, as is safety features (although truth be told I'll probably remove the blade guard, but I want to have the option).

Lately I've been wondering if I should just go for a cabinet saw and leave off the extension wings, and get a good mobile base. I always wanted a Unisaw or a 64. I can't really deal with anything much wider than 30 to maybe 36 inches. But it seems like a Unisaw base is probably at least as small as a jobsite stand or base, and without the extensions and Unisaw is pretty small, no?

All the cabinet saws I see for sale have huge wings on them and long fence systems. There must be a way to get one that's compact?

I also see something I never heard of called a "hybrid", although I don't see much about them (I understand they're a closed base style saw but with lesser power and maybe different trunion designs?).

Any thoughts on why one might go with a cabinet saw without the extensions as opposed to something more like a jobsite saw?

Thanks!

Mark

Edit: I don't expect to be dealing with sheet goods much in the shop. To the extent I use them, I'll rip them in the driveway using the Shopmaster or something (it works ok with a little effort).

[scott spencer]

Hi Mark - FWIW, I don't think 10x 16 is all that tiny...

For me, the TS is the heart and soul of my shop....my most used tool, and the one that I put the most time and money into. There's no question that I'd try to get as much saw into that space as possible. You won't be able to tell which saw cut which piece of wood, but the difference in how it feels, the power, smoothness, and the experience of using the bigger saw is not something I'd be willing to give up for the little bit of space savings a jobsite saw offers. Because of the amount of space the rails take up, I don't think removing the wings is going to buy you much space either.

Here's a drawing of my shop layout....less than 1/2 of a 2 car garage is all the real estate that's alotted to my shop, which is pretty much what you've got. I've got a Shop Fox cabinet saw with 40" rip and a router table in the right wing, 6" jointer, planer, DC, 13" DP, 12" BS, sharpening area, tool bench, and a workbench in there. It's tight but it works out fine most of the time.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/myshop.jpg

[Will Overton]

First;

"I'll probably remove the blade guard"

Terrible idea, particularly if this is where you are going to teach the kids.
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Hybrids, as you say, are lower powered cabinet style saws. They also tend to have lighter trunnions. Most have the trunnions attached to the top, like a contractor saw. Those made by Steel City have them mounted to the cabinet, like a full fledged cabinet saw. Orion, a division of Steel City, makes the hybrids for Sears (I have one of these), Ridgid and General. These should all have cabinet mounted trunnions. This make adjusting the blade parallel to the miter gauge easier.

A typical footprint is around 20" x 20" for hybrid and cabinet saws, although a mobile base could extend that. Without any extension wings, the typical top is 20" x 27". The problem with that, for rip cut, is that once you mount the fence, you have no capacity. At least one 12" wing is pretty much a necessity.

I've been using the Craftsman 22124 for about 5 years. The 1.75 hp has been more than enough for me. In fact I'm upgrading to a SawStop, and getting the 1.75hp cabinet style.


HTH

[John Mark Lane]

... Because of the amount of space the rails take up, I don't think removing the wings is going to buy you much space either.


Hi Scott, I was hoping you would reply, thank you. I've read a lot of your posts via the search feature.

You're right, it's not that tiny. I had a smaller shop in my old house, and shared it with a lawn mower etc. :) I'm just trying to maximize it. The plan is to have the TS, a miter saw (would like a RAS but reluctant due to space), 12 or 14" BS (probably steel), DP (I have a big Delta but may get a benchtop for this space), bench sander, planer (probably lunchbox, store it under a bench) and jointer (debating benchtop, maybe 6 inch closed base). Plus tons of hand tools, workbench space with vices etc. DC will be outside the space in an adjacent area with the tube ran thru the wall. I can probably get a 220 line set up for the TS (plan to have one for the DC) if necessary.

Anyway, on the width -- I had a Delta contractor's saw once that I put a Vega fence on. My recollection was that it was just a steel chrome plated tube. I could saw the thing shorter. That's really the big issue, I guess. I can take off the extensions, but the rails are the annoyance. I don't need width. I'll mostly be ripping smaller stock, doing occasional dados and crosscuts, but 16 inch capacity (or even less) would be enough for me. Question is, is it worth the $$ of a cabinet saw if I'm gonna take it down to such a barebones setup?

[John Mark Lane]

First;

"I'll probably remove the blade guard"

Terrible idea, particularly if this is where you are going to teach the kids.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hybrids, as you say, are lower powered cabinet style saws. They also tend to have lighter trunnions. Most have the trunnions attached to the top, like a contractor saw. Those made by Steel City have them mounted to the cabinet, like a full fledged cabinet saw. Orion, a division of Steel City, makes the hybrids for Sears (I have one of these), Ridgid and General. These should all have cabinet mounted trunnions. This make adjusting the blade parallel to the miter gauge easier.

A typical footprint is around 20" x 20" for hybrid and cabinet saws, although a mobile base could extend that. Without any extension wings, the typical top is 20" x 27". The problem with that, for rip cut, is that once you mount the fence, you have no capacity. At least one 12" wing is pretty much a necessity.

I've been using the Craftsman 22124 for about 5 years. The 1.75 hp has been more than enough for me. In fact I'm upgrading to a SawStop, and getting the 1.75hp cabinet style.


HTH

Hi Will and thanks for responding. Point taken on the blade guard. It is a concern, seriously.

I was contemplating having the rails extend maybe 4 to 6 inches beyond the table on the right side (a custom rig?). That should give me at least 12-14 inches rip capacity, and I will rarely use that. I'll keep a portable TS in the garage (separate space) and haul it into the driveway for sheet goods etc. At least that's the idea. A 20 by 27 table is very appealing.

[Dave MacArthur]

Boy, I sure would not want to remove the wings from my table saw for space-- think that's a false illusion of savings. You basically have a 1-car garage area, which is what I myself have when the tools are in the "stored" configuration. If you have ANY ability to move stuff around, say into a 2nd garage bay with car pulled out, or pull a saw out into a driveway, then your space limitations are much less.

I think you can actually save MUCH MORE SPACE with a well-built table-saw extension! Remember, the space you have to keep clear around the saw for infeed/outfeed makes the actual footprint of the maching underneath almost inconsequential!

FIRST, I would have 52" rails/extension, and have the saw mounted on a mobile base.
SECOND, I would install my router in the extension. This saves you a router-table, you can build essentially a router-cabinet under the extension as a base. You get a LOT of storage under there. You can use your existing fence as the basis for your router fence, I built one that just slides on top of the biesmeyer.
THIRD, I would fill in the rest of the area under the extension with a cabinet, again big space savings.
FOURTH, I would use the extension as an assembly-table / work bench! Take a look at the PM2000, they sell the extension table as a work bench with bench dogs in it and everything!
FIFTH, I would make a hinged outfeed table on the backside of the saw that you can pop up when needed.
SIXTH, you can store the jointer UNDERNEATH the left extension wing! My DJ-20 rolls right underneath there, making the "footprint" of the 8" jointer meaningless!

That's my take. Make the table saw the center of your shop, think of it as a saw/router/workbench/assembly area, the single most valuable and concentrated use of space in the shop. And if you want to keep from wasting valuable space, DON'T CONSIDER a RAS! Get a SCMS that you can move around instead. My whole shop rolls nicely into 20x 10 space, AND I can actually do 90% of my work with it all compressed like that--only have to roll/expand it a bit if doing long boards or sheet goods. There are tons of threads on here about mobile shops/small shops, this is a nut that has been cracked and eaten a thousand times, so don't assume you have to limit yourself when you might well not.

I do love a good "what should I buy" and "shop design" thread! ;) And there are some shop design tools that let you draw it all out nicely, check the Grizzly site for one, also Delta has one.

[Van Huskey]

Dave has covered most of my thoughts. Just consider for a few minutes having a 50+ inch saw and just how much you can fit under/in this area and wheel it out of the way when need be.

[Victor Robinson]

Dave made a lot of great points. Get the cabinet saw and figure out how to make it work with creative use of space, mobility, and multi-use storage/stands.

I too thought I had too small a space for major machinery and was going to get a Bosch jobsite saw. Thanks to prodding by many wise folks here, I became willing to think about using my space in ways I didn't see before, and sure enough have managed to fit much more into my small space than I thought possible. I've also spent more money than I thought I would, but let's not go there...

[John Mark Lane]

Guys, thanks so much for the responses. A couple of thoughts to add, though...

If I put a TS with a long fence in the shop, and I have a bench (miter saw, workspace) along one long wall as planned, I basically can't walk between the saw and the bench (or barely). Plus I will never have anything that large in there to cut. The entry door is at one end of the shop on a long wall, and the long bench will be on the opposite long wall, so the TS has to be sort of centered close to the wall where the door is.

I could put the bench along a short wall, but then I really have created a limitation that might affect me -- reducing my ability to cross-cut longer boards. Plus I have plans for those shorter walls (bench sander, DP, place to put a BS etc. I would love to have the weight, stability, smoothness and power of a cabinet saw, but the width of these beasts I see everywhere would be wasted on me and would interfere with mobility in my shop.

I do get it about space under the extensions, but again, it's not really about storage, it's about mobility and not feeling cramped. Previously, I was actually looking for the benchtop or mobile TS with the smallest table. I won't be cutting big stuff. My work is small enough I actually looked at one of those little 4 inch tablesaws (and will probably get one, for the really small stuff).

Just a few thoughts. I think I'll take Dave's idea and use some of the layouy programs and see what I can do.

Thanks!

Mark

[Curt Harms]

I've never had a saw with a 50" table so no experience there. I have a G1023 on a mobile base. Left wing is cast iron. Right wing is a piece of laminate covered counter with an opening for a router plate and angle iron to keep it flat. I can rip 27" to the right and 10" to the left if I choose to. Unless I want to rip 4 X 8 sheets on a table saw (I don't) 30" or so rip capacity should be fine. A good saw guide and good blade will produce very good cuts on sheet goods and handling 4 X 8 sheets by myself is a bother. Better to put the sheets on a cutting table, cut 'em to size and clean up on the T. S. if needed. I made a nice flat assembly table with folding legs so i can move it from basement to garage to outside or whatever. Works for me. For me, an outfeed table that folds down would be more useful and something I'm considering.

[scott spencer]

Mark - There's always more than one way to skin a cat in wwing, but I rarely crosscut anything that my TS won't handle. For those rare occasions that I encounter a really long board, I pull my CMS off a shelf and make the cut with that, as opposed to leaving it setup full time....just another reason I prefer the TS-centered philosophy.

Dave raises a good point....I do find myself short of work space often, and that's when the whole TS/router table/extension table/outfeed/workbench area is invaluable to me.

[Will Overton]

I agree with most of what Dave says, except for the 52" rails. First off, it's overkill for what the OP plans to do. Plus, although you may be able to store a jointer under it, it's still there, probably in the way, when you are trying to use the jointer. It would be a great space saver in a bigger shop, but I don't see a place for it in the size shop the OP is putting together.

Just my opinion.

[Shawn Albe]

Couple o' thoughts, having had a benchtop, a Unisaw w/52" capacity, and now a Rigid hybrid.

Bought the Uni thinking it'd be great for cutting down 4x8 ply. It may be, but not for me: those things are heavy, awkward, and much easier to cut to rough dimension (for me) with circ saw and cheap guide. You can always do final trimming on the TS. Uni (probably any decent cabinet saw) was awesome, but I moved so it had to go.
Most cabinets are 24" deep, so if you agree with my above point, it is doubtful you'd need much more capacity than that. Bookcases are typically 12-16" deep, so again you'd be fine.
I had quite a bit of luck crosscutting with the table saw and a fence screwed to the miter gauge. would be even easier with a sled. IMHO, in a cramped space, I'd say forget a RAS or powered miter saw. (admission: I've only skimmed your post, so if you are doing on-site installs, then perhaps an SCMS would be useful.
Force yourself to think the 80.20 rule, plan for the 80% to be easy/convenient, and find ways to 'make due' the other 20%. I.e., the hand planes for the odd wide board, or a handsaw for the odd wide cross cut.
If you end up with a hybrid with cabinet mounted trunnions as someone else mentioned, the main noticeable difference is really just one of power and perhaps the fence depending on what you buy. The 3HP Uni went through 3" oak like it wasn't even there; haven't stressed out my hybrid yet, but it is not that often I am ripping 12/4 stock. When I do, I can probably slow down a tad on my hybrid.
The cabinet saws (whether full or hybrid) definitely have a smaller footprint and better DC than a contractor. worth paying more for IMHO. When I looked at the (better) jobsite saws, they still take up almost as much floor space in use, and they really don't take up much less space when they are folded up on their rolling stands. Plus they use a regular 'universal' motor, so you are essentially using a circular saw mounted upside down: loud, less powerful, and loud.
Be sure to check out models with riving knives..much easier to install/remove, so more likely you will be using them. Also avoids you having to go in and change your user name to something alluding to how many fingers you lost that one time your attention wandered.

[Stephen Cherry]

These have all been great suggestions, I'll just add in my 2 cents.

As far as kids go, depending on their age, to me the table saw seems too scary. I have a bandsaw and let my son use it, with supervision. It may be my illusion, but the bandsaw just seems much safer.

Also, you mentioned you intend to make chairs. If you want to make something like a Chippendale sytle chair, or Queen Anne, a bandsaw would be just the ticket, and a table saw would make a great workbench. And the bandsaw can't be beat for making odds and ends. I know for cabinets, etc, it's just the opposite though.

I can't help but think that the table saw you have now is just fine, and if you need another saw it would be something like a little bit bigger bandsaw. Just my opinions though.

[Prashun Patel]

I had a Delta Shopmaster and Jet Proshop Hybrid, and now a Sawstop PCS.

I believe if you stick with this 'hobby' you will ultimately want a cabinet saw. The only reason to go with a hybrid is if you really don't want to upgrade your power to 220v.

I also think you might be well served having a mobile BENCH instead of - or in addition to - a mobile saw.

Remember too that a tablesaw with the blade fully retracted and covered with plywood is a very good assembly table.

Last, +1 vote for considering a bandsaw. It'll open up yr possibilities, and might be all you need.

[John Mark Lane]

Couple o' thoughts, having had a benchtop, a Unisaw w/52" capacity, and now a Rigid hybrid.

Bought the Uni thinking it'd be great for cutting down 4x8 ply. It may be, but not for me: those things are heavy, awkward, and much easier to cut to rough dimension (for me) with circ saw and cheap guide. You can always do final trimming on the TS. Uni (probably any decent cabinet saw) was awesome, but I moved so it had to go.
Most cabinets are 24" deep, so if you agree with my above point, it is doubtful you'd need much more capacity than that. Bookcases are typically 12-16" deep, so again you'd be fine.
I had quite a bit of luck crosscutting with the table saw and a fence screwed to the miter gauge. would be even easier with a sled. IMHO, in a cramped space, I'd say forget a RAS or powered miter saw. (admission: I've only skimmed your post, so if you are doing on-site installs, then perhaps an SCMS would be useful.
Force yourself to think the 80.20 rule, plan for the 80% to be easy/convenient, and find ways to 'make due' the other 20%. I.e., the hand planes for the odd wide board, or a handsaw for the odd wide cross cut.
If you end up with a hybrid with cabinet mounted trunnions as someone else mentioned, the main noticeable difference is really just one of power and perhaps the fence depending on what you buy. The 3HP Uni went through 3" oak like it wasn't even there; haven't stressed out my hybrid yet, but it is not that often I am ripping 12/4 stock. When I do, I can probably slow down a tad on my hybrid.
The cabinet saws (whether full or hybrid) definitely have a smaller footprint and better DC than a contractor. worth paying more for IMHO. When I looked at the (better) jobsite saws, they still take up almost as much floor space in use, and they really don't take up much less space when they are folded up on their rolling stands. Plus they use a regular 'universal' motor, so you are essentially using a circular saw mounted upside down: loud, less powerful, and loud.
Be sure to check out models with riving knives..much easier to install/remove, so more likely you will be using them. Also avoids you having to go in and change your user name to something alluding to how many fingers you lost that one time your attention wandered.



Shawn, very helpful comments, thanks. I agree, cutting large sheet goods is a pain without a much larger table setup than I can use (or have any interest in). I can cut large pieces in the driveway using other tools. I really don't even need 24" rip capacity on the TS.

The biggest thing that's pestering me is precisely your point that a cabinet saw has a smaller footprint than a contractors saw, and maybe even takes up less actual room than a jobsite saw. And gives you more power, smoothness, better DC, quieter motor, etc. But it only takes up less room if it doesn't have the massive extensions that most of them seem to come with. For the life of me I can't seem to find any info (or even pictures) of a Unisaw or similar taken down to its basic table size. That's what's intriguing me.

[John Mark Lane]

Mark - There's always more than one way to skin a cat in wwing, but I rarely crosscut anything that my TS won't handle. For those rare occasions that I encounter a really long board, I pull my CMS off a shelf and make the cut with that, as opposed to leaving it setup full time....just another reason I prefer the TS-centered philosophy.

Dave raises a good point....I do find myself short of work space often, and that's when the whole TS/router table/extension table/outfeed/workbench area is invaluable to me.


Thanks for the suggestions. I dunno...having a cross-cut saw set up and ready to grab at any time is probably something I don't want to give up. I expect to be bringing in some 6-8 foot planks on a regular basis, cutting them down to the sizes I want to work with etc. I use a cross-cut saw constantly. Doing it all on a TS strikes me as a compromise -- I'd have to take the fence off. get the miter jig out, make room, and maybe even change the blade.

As for the router, I had planned to make one of those fold-down router tables that mounts to a bench on hinges and you just pull it up and lock it in place when you need the router.

I do like the idea of a bench/workspace based on or around the TS, and can see doing it. Just ... it can't be very wide. Longer is better than wider.

[John Mark Lane]

These have all been great suggestions, I'll just add in my 2 cents.

As far as kids go, depending on their age, to me the table saw seems too scary. I have a bandsaw and let my son use it, with supervision. It may be my illusion, but the bandsaw just seems much safer.

Also, you mentioned you intend to make chairs. If you want to make something like a Chippendale sytle chair, or Queen Anne, a bandsaw would be just the ticket, and a table saw would make a great workbench. And the bandsaw can't be beat for making odds and ends. I know for cabinets, etc, it's just the opposite though.

I can't help but think that the table saw you have now is just fine, and if you need another saw it would be something like a little bit bigger bandsaw. Just my opinions though.


Yes, a table saw is a very scary machine. One option that I saw on a couple of saws was the abililty to lock the on/off switch, and I may do that. Also the shop will be locked up when I'm not there, and power tool use will be verrrrry carefully regulated. As it is, my son (5 y/o) is allowed to slowly lower the miter saw onto a board and pull the trigger, while I hold everything in place. Or turn the wheel of the DP to drill a hole. He mostly uses his hand tools (real tools that I gave him) and his own bench.

And yes, a bandsaw is high on my list and will be a focal machine in this shop. I'm still agonizing over that decision, as well (will probably decide on an overall "package" of machines before buying any one of them).

Thanks for the response. Any more thoughts please keep it coming.

Mark

[Mike Hadler]

Yes, a table saw is a very scary machine. One option that I saw on a couple of saws was the abililty to lock the on/off switch, and I may do that. Also the shop will be locked up when I'm not there, and power tool use will be verrrrry carefully regulated. As it is, my son (5 y/o) is allowed to slowly lower the miter saw onto a board and pull the trigger, while I hold everything in place. Or turn the wheel of the DP to drill a hole. He mostly uses his hand tools (real tools that I gave him) and his own bench.

And yes, a bandsaw is high on my list and will be a focal machine in this shop. I'm still agonizing over that decision, as well (will probably decide on an overall "package" of machines before buying any one of them).

Thanks for the response. Any more thoughts please keep it coming.

Mark
Mark,
I am in the process of building out my small shop which is basically a dual use 2 car garage. I want the ability to park 2 cars in the garage, so my focus is on space maximization and portability. My solution to start with was to get a Bosch4100 contractor saw on a gravity rise stand. I also have a 6" jointer and a Dewalt 735 planer to go with my mitre saw. I didn't think I had enough space for all of this stuff on mobile stands, so I decided to build what is referred to as the Ultimate Tool Stand. It allows me to use it as station for my miter saw, outfeed for my table saw, router table, downdraft sanding station and a base for my planer. The planer, router table and miter saw all store below. I'm also planning on building a V Drum sander, so that should fit in the stand as well when I get around to building it.

You can find more info and lots of pictures of the stand at:
http://christophermerrill.net/ww/plans/UTS/Tool_Stand_1.html

Just thought it might be something of interest to you.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

I had a Delta Shopmaster and Jet Proshop Hybrid, and now a Sawstop PCS.

I believe if you stick with this 'hobby' you will ultimately want a cabinet saw. The only reason to go with a hybrid is if you really don't want to upgrade your power to 220v.

.


Or even better the 120V SS PCS!

[Curt Harms]

I work with rough stock some of the time and prefer to rip it on a band saw rather than a table saw. I've ripped lumber on a table saw and have it spread or pinch due to case hardening or reaction wood. European saws use a short fence that ends just past the blade for this very reason. I've haven't had a nasty kickback yet due to that but it's no fun. The bandsaw doesn't present a kickback hazard like the tablesaw does. Yes a riving knife alleviates the kickback hazard. A properly set up bandsaw can rip very accurately, and jointing 1/32" will present a great edge. OTOH I don't have a bandsaw that will cut glue up ready edges like the tablesaw will. A larger bandsaw with a carbide blade may very well rival table saw quality cuts.




And yes, a bandsaw is high on my list and will be a focal machine in this shop. I'm still agonizing over that decision, as well (will probably decide on an overall "package" of machines before buying any one of them).

Thanks for the response. Any more thoughts please keep it coming.

Mark

[Shawn Albe]

The biggest thing that's pestering me is ... it only takes up less room if it doesn't have the massive extensions that most of them seem to come with.

Very true. Grizzly's website has a few options that come with a smaller rip capacity (something like 26-30") but still with both wings and a small extension, those end up being about five feet wide. Still not small. Just looking at the Ridgid or Steel City hybrid cabinet saws, they look to be about 40" wide according to their specs but they look wider.

You might be able to take one wing off of any TS, but remember the motor sticks out, so you may as well leave at least the one on. Frankly I would leave both wings, maybe cut down/eliminate the extension table. but leave the wings.

I had more time to re-read your first post more closely, should have done that first. For what you are looking to do, I agree with a previous poster that a good bandsaw may be a better buy at this point. There was a good article in FWW a few years ago (issue 193, "My Five Essential Power Tools" by Rogowski) where he picked the bandsaw as his top tool. This was based on *his* projects, which were generally more made of solid wood than sheet goods. I think this aligns with what you make or intend to make: boxes, chairs, small tables etc. A bandsaw is much more versatile for solid wood: curves, resawing, joinery than a table saw and arguably safer as well since there is no kickback. They can rip, crosscut, and bevel as well. They also have a much smaller footprint.

If you did a lot of work with plywood, such as cabinetry or bookcases, then I would have a different answer.

And I wouldn't spend up for a 'true' 3HP cabinet saw at twice the cost of the 1.75HP hybrid cabinet saw. Put any savings toward a bandsaw. Many here rave about the Grizzly G0513 17" bandsaw. If you were to shift gears and get a bandsaw instead of the TS, that would be a much better choice than a 12" or even 14" bandsaw.

[John Mark Lane]

I work with rough stock some of the time and prefer to rip it on a band saw rather than a table saw. I've ripped lumber on a table saw and have it spread or pinch due to case hardening or reaction wood. European saws use a short fence that ends just past the blade for this very reason. I've haven't had a nasty kickback yet due to that but it's no fun. The bandsaw doesn't present a kickback hazard like the tablesaw does. Yes a riving knife alleviates the kickback hazard. A properly set up bandsaw can rip very accurately, and jointing 1/32" will present a great edge. OTOH I don't have a bandsaw that will cut glue up ready edges like the tablesaw will. A larger bandsaw with a carbide blade may very well rival table saw quality cuts.


Interesting. Hadn't really thought of it that way. Sort of counsels more in favor of the larger bandsaw, something I am still on the fence about.

In case anybody still reading this has any advice/info on the following, I still don't know the real answer:

Can you take a basic cabinet saw, like a Unisaw or a PM 64 or one of the Grizzly's or whatever, and take it down to the basic top, without extensions, or with short extensions, and get a decent set of rails and fence that won't extent 50 feet out to the right? I would like to keep the total width of the saw to maybe 36 inches or so. For the life of me, I can't find any pics/info/saws for sale/ads/ or anything like this. Everybody seems focused on Bigger is Better.

[Zach England]

My space is smaller than that and I was very glad to ditch me cheesy Bosch saw for a cabinet saw. The sacrifice is worth it. I'd rather get rid of my jointer than go back to a small table saw. Now I am trying to figure out how to fit a saw with 52 inch rails in there and trying to get the exact dimensions of the PM2000 cabinet to know if it will fit down my staircase.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'll toss in my $0.02. Get the biggest table saw that you can afford or want. I built a plywood top or cap. The saw doubles as my workbench, when I'm not using it as a saw. In fact, I'm planning to toss out or recycle my workbench, since it's now buried behind my saw. It is a PITA to move the saw around and yes, when I use the saw I have no workbench per se, but the 52" has a lot of room on the wing, and there is always some space. I also dropped in a router plate, as mentioned, so it also doubles as my router table. None of this is new, someone has mentioned all of these earlier. Just reinforcing that the TS is my workhorse of the shop, and that is where I plinked down my hard earned dollars. Not saying that you can't do a lot of work with a top quality bench top, I have friends that only have a bench top.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a small shop in the basement of a townhouse.

I previously owned a General 650 cabinet saw with 32" rip capacity.

It was the smallest footprint/highest capacity machine I could find.

I also had an Excalibur overarm guard on it, with a Merlin removable splitter. Excellent dust collection, good finger protection, you aren't tempted to run without a guard which is about the dumbest thing you can do.

I made a folding outfeed table for it that was about 30" deep, plenty large yet it folded against the back of the saw for storage.

Do yourself a favour and buy the saw once, get a premium machine, if I was going to buy a cabinet saw again, which I wouldn't, I'd buy a SS.

Regards, Rod.

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks for the continued comments and ideas.

Rod -- You spoke in past tense about the cabinet saw. What do you use now? And why did you replace the General?

For those suggesting a Saw Stop saw, I looked and they are a bit out of my price range.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the continued comments and ideas.

Rod -- You spoke in past tense about the cabinet saw. What do you use now? And why did you replace the General?

For those suggesting a Saw Stop saw, I looked and they are a bit out of my price range.


Hi, I finally got fed up enough with all the things a cabinet saw doesn't do, or do well, and purchased a Hammer B3 Winner sliding saw/shaper.

Having a small shop, the previous General saw and shaper took up more room than the Hammer, which is only as large as the General saw.

I now have a 49" sliding saw, which means I can actually cross cut a piece of veneered plywood (oh, and I ordered the saw with a scoring blade, bliss.).

I can also straight line rip a 49" piece of hardwood, and the quick connect table extensions and accessories result in a machine that is only as large as I need at the time.

I also really like having a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table.

So, more capacity, accuracy, capability and performance than a cabinet saw in the same footprint.

It doesn't get much better..........Regards, Rod.

[John Mark Lane]

Hi, I finally got fed up enough with all the things a cabinet saw doesn't do, or do well, and purchased a Hammer B3 Winner sliding saw/shaper.

Having a small shop, the previous General saw and shaper took up more room than the Hammer, which is only as large as the General saw.

I now have a 49" sliding saw, which means I can actually cross cut a piece of veneered plywood (oh, and I ordered the saw with a scoring blade, bliss.).

I can also straight line rip a 49" piece of hardwood, and the quick connect table extensions and accessories result in a machine that is only as large as I need at the time.

I also really like having a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table.

So, more capacity, accuracy, capability and performance than a cabinet saw in the same footprint.

It doesn't get much better..........Regards, Rod.


Holy cow! I had to look that up. That's an amazing machine! Sheesh, leave it to the Austrians to come up with something like that. That's absolutely awesome. What do you make with that thing (hey it's my thread I can hijack it if I want :) ).

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi JM, I'm in the process of making an Arts and Crafts couch for the living room.

This weekend one of the Canadian forum members is coming over to "borrow" the shaper to make some raised panel doors.

I forgot to mention that I moved my feeder from the General to the Hammer, where it's mounted on a swing away bracket.

I used it with the saw recently to rip a bunch of sticks for the couch.

I don't use much sheet material, however I really like not having to fumble around with a sled on the saw.

I may be getting smarter as I get older, I know I'm not as strong or as co-ordinated as I was 30 years ago. The slider just makes things easier, and more accurate for me.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. What's in your avatar?

[John Mark Lane]

P.S. What's in your avatar?


2006 Harley-Davidson Super Glide, with Motorvation Spyder sidecar, and my Golden Retriever Wiley, who loves to ride in it. Looks like a Boxer in yours? I owned two Beemers, an R-80 that I bought new in the early '80's, and a K-75 that I bought new in 1993. Loved them both dearly.

[John Mark Lane]

In case anybody still reading this has any advice/info on the following, I still don't know the real answer:

Can you take a basic cabinet saw, like a Unisaw or a PM 64 or one of the Grizzly's or whatever, and take it down to the basic top, without extensions, or with short extensions, and get a decent set of rails and fence that won't extent 50 feet out to the right? I would like to keep the total width of the saw to maybe 36 inches or so. For the life of me, I can't find any pics/info/saws for sale/ads/ or anything like this. Everybody seems focused on Bigger is Better.


OK, this is pretty lame, quoting my own questions and responding to them. But nobody seemed to really address this question, which is my real issue here. So today I called Grizzly. They're such great people there, always helpful. Spoke to a guy in Tech Support. I asked him, basically, can you get the 1023 with just the base table without the extensions, and with a shorter set of rails for the fence? Answer: No.

We discussed it for a while, in practical terms. He said the saw ships without the extensions bolted on, and you could conceivably just leave them off. But you would have to modify the rails (basically, cut them with a hack saw or something) if you wanted short rails. Plus, he said, it would void the warranty on the saw.

Kind of frustrating. I have seen older Unisaws and 64's with small tables and simple setups. It's been a long time, but I have seen them. I guess it's just not part of the current world of woodworking tools...

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'm sorry, I thought your OP was trying to make your whole shop more efficient. Seems to me you answered your own question. You need a good table top saw. There are really good table tops out there. Bosch is one of them...... A friend has one. Cutting down a cabinet saw would seem to be a waste of money.

[Will Overton]

Plus, he said, it would void the warranty on the saw.


I doubt that very much. If the motor burns out, or a bearing goes bad, they are going to send you a new one with a prepaid label to return the old one. Sometimes they ask you to dispose of the old part. They are not going to ask you how long your fence rail is, because it has nothing to do with other parts. You could easily cut the rails down and not have a problem.

If you contact a Delta dealer it might be easier to order one of their saws with 1 wing. I've seen some advertised in the past where wings and fences were optional.

[Shawn Albe]

the rails are nothing special...typically angle iron and a steel tube...if you *really* didn't want to cut them down you could buy some pieces of your own to size.

[John Mark Lane]

Just thought I would resurrect this thread to say thanks again to everyone for your help. As you can see below, I made good use of my firm's large conference room today. My co-workers think I'm nuts anyway, so no news there (I simply pointed out to them that all proper law firms have table saws in their conference rooms). I haven't used it yet, but I sure am impressed with the engineering of this thing. A great deal of thought went into it.

... That said, I can't figure out why I have two leftover phillips head machine screws....