Infill scraper plane?

[Brian Greb]

I had an idea and I was wondering if my thoughts where flawed. I would like to make a Stanley #112 inspired scraper plane but I was thinking of doing it as a locked dovetail infill plane. But now I have questions... and I think someone here could answer some of them.

1. Is this a bad idea?

2. How would I go about making the frog and cap?(I have little to no metal working tools, and I can't cast brass as I have no crucible)

3. Is there a source I could purchase the frog and cap from?


I would like this to be doable due to I like to make and use my own tools(when it makes sense to) I'm also cheap and I don't want to lay out an ungodly amount of cash for an antique Stanley or a new L.N.

Thank you for looking and any help is greatly appreciated.

[Zach Dillinger]

You can build a crucible yourself out of a 5 gallon metal paint can. Plans, along with everything you need to know about casting small parts, are available in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830604146?ie=UTF8&tag=eatocounwood-20&linkCode=xm2&creativeASIN=0830604146

Best of luck!

Zach

[Dave Matson]

St James Bay tool company sells bronze lever caps that might work for a project. You can get rough castings or finished ones. You also could probably purchase a 112 blade assembly as they make a bronze reproduction.

I bought a Kunz 112 for $35 at a tool collectors sale a few years ago (only thing I could afford). Its was and is a hideous plane. The sole was far from flat and the blade clamp was not square to the mouth. Later I found the instruction manual on woodcraft's site which stated that the blade holding assembly was machined 2° off perpendicular to promote a skew cut. Wonder if the stanley is like that.

Anyone interested in making a scraper should see this:
http://hamlertools.blogspot.com/2007/08/twenty-five-years-of-scrapers.html

[Matt Lau]

1. I don't know. I was thinking of doing the same thing.
First, I need a better understanding of a scraper plane....

2. I believe that the talented Derek Cohen has an excellent website showing how he fabricates these parts with minimal metal working gear. Hopefully he chimes up.

3. Ebay.

Don't forget to post pictures when you're done!

[James Taglienti]

If you buy rough castings from st. james bay, you'd better have a handful of files, taps, emery cloth, powered grinders, etc, as well as a heck of a lot of time on your hands. I bought a bronze chariot plane casting from them that was "rough" --- you could probably dovetail a plane body before that thing was done. just miserable.

[David Weaver]

I would build a different infill first - one that you would know would be better than anything you're going to have around.

The reason I'd hesitate to do a scraper is that the best part about the 112 and 212 type of planes is that they have the adjuster mechanism for the tilt, and putting something like that in an infill wouldn't be that easy. It makes it easier to orient the burr the way you want, and then it gives you the ability to adjust it forward instead of taking it out to sharpen right away.

Ron Brese has lever caps, but if you don't want to spend the money on them, I would just get a piece of 1/2 inch thick 360 brass online, and then saw and file it to size and use the method of retaining the lever cap that philip marcou uses ( a cross bar with a groove in the lever cap ). You could do the same thing with one of the st. james bay caps, and it'd probably be cheaper than getting the stock brass. I think a piece of 1/2 by 2 1/2 by a foot cost me 50 or so bucks last week (but it'll be enough for at least 3 lever caps).

Have you built one before? As much work as it is to make an infill, I'd want to guarantee that there was going to be a performance difference vs. something widely available for not much money. In both of the infills I've built, I could've bought a couple of good smoothers for less than the cost of the parts (i didn't go cheapest route with supplies), or in the case of the last one, the total cost was about the same as the LN 4 1/2 that I bought used.

Cheapest route possible would've been mild steel sides and domestic infill with a rough cast lever cap and a self-made iron out of O-1, but the performance thing comes up again, and I wanted to work with what I knew, and get the iron from someone who can make and heat treat an iron better than me. Ron's price on the iron and lever cap made it not worth building the lever cap, either, though I did it from rough brass bar stock for the first one.

[Brian Greb]

I would build a different infill first - one that you would know would be better than anything you're going to have around...


Have you built one before? As much work as it is to make an infill, I'd want to guarantee that there was going to be a performance difference vs. something widely available for not much money. In both of the infills I've built, I could've bought a couple of good smoothers for less than the cost of the parts (i didn't go cheapest route with supplies), or in the case of the last one, the total cost was about the same as the LN 4 1/2 that I bought used...



I have built infills before... What draws me to the concept of building my own 112 scraper is figuring out how to make an infill version that is adjustable in the same way as the 112. Also I think it would have that way cool factor, I like to be different. I just want to make sure I don't go over the cost of a commercially available one.

As for the performance issue... I know that if I buy an antique Stanley 112 I'll have to clean it lap the sole replace the blade(if it has one) and switch out the tote and knob(80~100 year old rose wood is some brittle stuff). So I have a good amount of work to do either way at least if I make my own I have a unique tool and I haven't "ruined a collectors tool by using it". I do believe the over thought tool I plan to make will work as good if not better than the commercially available ones.... If not it will look good on the shelf as a piece of art.

[Brian Greb]

I e-mailed St. James Bay about the parts... hopefully there price is good.

I have figured out my materials list.
So as soon as I hear about the parts I can figure out if this is a go/no go operation.

If I build it I will post progress pics.

I'll let you all know how this adventure goes.

[Derek Cohen]

Scott Grandstaff built this one, which was featured in FWW a couple of years ago ..

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pScott/sGrandstaff/images/842.jpg

The description is here: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pScott/sGrandstaff/inscrape.htm

My article on "Making Lever Caps and Lever Cap Screws in the Backyard" is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Making%20Lever%20Caps%20and%20Lever%20Cap%20Screws %20in%20the%20Backyard.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Kent]

What is the advantage of a scraper plane over a steep-angled 55° infill or a 63° Mujingfang polish plane ( http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602 )?

Not a challenge, just my own question.

Brian

[Derek Cohen]

What is the advantage of a scraper plane over a steep-angled 55° infill or a 63° Mujingfang polish plane ( http://japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602 )?

Not a challenge, just my own question.

Brian

Hi Brian

Even a high angle plane is not always effective. Use a scraper plane when the wood is hard and extra interlocked - the scrape plane does not care about grain direction.

However, you cannot use a scraper plane on softwoods, and a scraper plane will not produce as shiny a finish as the smoother (scraper finish tend to be matt). I would always try a plane before a scraper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Johnny Kleso]

Brian,
I started out with a woodworking bug and then progressed to a hand plane addict and then doing metal work at home.. I worked all my life as a machinist and have 1/2 a garage full of metal working tools...

I would advise you to ask yourself what do you want to do.. Wood or Metal?
You can get side traced and spend a lot of money and fill up a lot of space trying to do both.. I found myself buying more tools than building tools or woodworking at one point..

If you want to make planes then by all means do so..
I would not advise you to go to far off the woodworking path unless thats what you really want..
If you want to make a few planes you can make so awesome wood planes or a Metal Kit Plane but making one from scratch will cost you much more than buying a few LN or LV planes..

If you like metal working start with some simple stuff like Marking Knives, Hammers, Screwdrivers and stuff..

If you have most of the tool you need then go for it but making a frog or plane is not a easy task even for skilled metal workers at home..

[Dave Anderson NH]

What Johhny said. The toolmaking can really sidetrack you and leave little time for furniture and other "normal" woodworking pursuits. DAMHIKT:D

[David Weaver]

I e-mailed St. James Bay about the parts... hopefully there price is good.

I have figured out my materials list.
So as soon as I hear about the parts I can figure out if this is a go/no go operation.

If I build it I will post progress pics.

I'll let you all know how this adventure goes.


It'll be interesting to see. I'd still personally avoid it. The advantage you have with an infill plane (control of the bedding of the iron and precision around the bed mouth area) goes away with a scraper.

It's going to be very hard to make something as good as a veritas large scraper plane and A2 iron, or a LN 112 or 212 for the same price - all three of those are very good planes with good quality properly hardened irons.

Plus what some of the other guys said - it gets easy to get lost in making tools.

[James Taglienti]

MAN
i have been wanting to build an infill plane for years. If I was to make an infill scraper plane, I 'd make it nice and wide, like a 112, but maybe an inch shorter. Stanley's smoothers are too long IMO.
anyway
since my metalworking skills consist mostly of locking something in a vise and beating it with a hammer until it's "fixed," i think i'll have to practice a bit before I tackle any infills.

[David Weaver]

MAN
Stanley's smoothers are too long IMO.
anyway
since my metalworking skills consist mostly of locking something in a vise and beating it with a hammer until it's "fixed," i think i'll have to practice a bit before I tackle any infills.

That pretty much covers a large part of the process. All you have to do other than that is saw and file, and a large part of the process for someone using hand tools is just brute force sweat work. The accurate filing only happens as you approach a line, file in the tails and secondary gaps (and that's not that accurate), and the mouth.

The mouth is the only part where you really have to get tedious, and if you aren't concerned about a tight tolerance mouth, you can even slack off there a little.