Byrd Head worth the money?

[Keith Blaszak]

Let me start off by saying hi since i'm new to the boards. I'm just getting into woodworking and i've just "finished" building the shop that i'll be using to renovate my old 1903 Village Colonial.

I guess my question is this: are the Byrd spiral cutting heads really worth the cash to upgrade from HSS? I currently have Grizzly 8" Jointer and a Dewalt 735 13 inch planner that I could upgrade. Also on a side note does anyone know what the associated cost is for the byrd carbide blades?

[Ed Labadie]

I bought my first Byrd head equipped machine a few months ago, a PM15 planer.
IMO, they are worth every penny! No blade change hassles, no wondering "how bad will this board tear out?"......

I ran some Hickory glue-ups through fro a friend, they came out 99.9% tear-out free. No wear or adverse effects on the knives. With HSS knives, they would have been ready for a re-grind, not to mention what the finish would have looked like...
Ed

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith,

Welcome to the Creek.

Is the Byrd head worth it? I suppose that's a decision everyone has to make for themself.

I am getting ready to drop the hammer on a Grizzly 8" jointer and I am going to spend the extra bucks and get it with the Grizzly version of the Byrd head. When I am in the middle of doing a project, I don't want to be spending time messing with a blade alignment. Consequently, I see a Grizzly 0490X in my immediate future.

[Nathan Palenski]

The difference between the byrd and shelix is the orientation of the cutters to rotation axis, right?

[Cary Falk]

They are worth it to me because I hate changing blades. I put one in my 8" shop fox jointer and am waiting to pull the trigger on a 15" planer with one. It would not be worth it to me to put it in a lunchbox planer. I have a lunch box and it already has quick change knives. The cutters run about $4 each.

[Jim Terrill]

The difference between the byrd and shelix is the orientation of the cutters to rotation axis, right?

Last I knew, Byrd IS shelix, unless I'm mistaken.

[Myk Rian]

The difference between the byrd and shelix is the orientation of the cutters to rotation axis, right?
Byrd Shelix.

I put one on my DW735. It's worth it.
Cutters are about $30 for a pack of 10.

[Ben Abate]

Well, you asked didn't you. my .02 cents worth....

[Greg Portland]

Is everyone working with exotics and figured woods?Ben, here's the reasons people go with a Shelix-style head:

- Less tear out that -most- other planer heads / blades
- Less feed resistance (on a jointer this is nice)
- If you hit a nail then you're only replacing 3-4 carbide teeth which will run you ~$15 vs a new set of blades (yes you could shift the standard blades).
- The initial surface finish is better resulting in -less- sanding (does NOT eliminate sanding). This is due to the head geometry, not carbide vs HSS.
- Carbide stays sharp longer (especially with certain hard woods aka Teak)

Most of these issues can be mitigated on "old" cutter heads with careful stock selection and slow feed rates.

[Joey Jarrard]

The Byrd heads are worth there weight in gold. The company is top notch too. I have them run all my cut samples before each show to make the blanks look like new money before we rout in to them. This is a tool that will pay for its self.

[Ben Abate]

I'll stay out of this from here on.

Ben







Ben, here's the reasons people go with a Shelix-style head:

- Less tear out that -most- other planer heads / blades
- Less feed resistance (on a jointer this is nice)
- If you hit a nail then you're only replacing 3-4 carbide teeth which will run you ~$15 vs a new set of blades (yes you could shift the standard blades).
- The initial surface finish is better resulting in -less- sanding (does NOT eliminate sanding). This is due to the head geometry, not carbide vs HSS.
- Carbide stays sharp longer (especially with certain hard woods aka Teak)

Most of these issues can be mitigated on "old" cutter heads with careful stock selection and slow feed rates.

[Van Huskey]

Am I the only one that is working with decent wood? Is everyone working with exotics and figured woods? I know I'm sounding a bit sarcastic here but I see so many guys concerned about a Byrd head or other take offs that you they might buy a better planner up front and not worry about it. ....

No matter how you slice it the the Byrd or knockoffs will save money in the long run. One side of the cutter heads will outlast straight blades though many sharpenings and unless you have Tersa or other quick set knives it will save you a LOT of time over the life of the cutter head. Helical heads are a revelation much like Festool for example, you can't get it fully until you use them.

To the OP I suggest getting to the top of your planned jointe/planer upgrade curve before getting a helical head for example, if you have the room I would get one of the ubiquitous 4 post 15" planer "clones" before I upgraded the head and if you have the money buy them up front together.

For me a helical head is a requirement and even with the accolades they garner I will not consider a Euro machine even with Tersa blades over a helical head machine.

[Aaron Wingert]

Ben you're looking at this wrong in my opinion. People aren't putting shelix heads in their machines because their machines are junk, they're putting shelix heads in them to get better performance from them than they can get from HSS blades in a standard head.

Same reason we use carbide router bits. They cut better, last longer, and cost more. We don't use them because our router was made in Taiwan or because our domestic router is sub-par. The carbide tool is just the better option.

As for the Taiwan comment, that is purely ridiculous and doesn't really warrant further argument. There are thousands of woodworkers on this forum that use Jet, Grizzly, Delta and other brands of tools from Asian manufacturers with great success and satisfaction. By your logic, the high-end domestic and European tools don't warrant or wouldn't benefit from shelix cutterheads, assumably due to better tolerances. Pooey.

Either way, I think it is wrong to call out those that supposedly compensate for their lack of experience or knowledge about how to use a planer by putting a nice upgrade on the machine.

[Keith Blaszak]

Well I want to thank everyone for all the responses I appriciate all of the feedback with the different view points.

Ben,
I see what you mean and this is actually the exact reason I posted to begin with. Just to put things in perspective the price I picked up the DW735 for was $370.00 (like new off of CL) and the Byrd Cutter head would be approx $450.00. This brings the total up to $820.00, my problem when choosing a planner initially was that I couldn't find any decent floorbased models that were in my price range (I was trying to stay away from the ($1200.00 - $1700.00 range).

I guess I wasn't sure if adding the Byrd cutter head (given the pricetag) was a complete waste of time since alot of people view the DW735 as disposable.


On a side note I've been using the DW735 which i've sunk into my 11' long island work bench for months and I couldn't be happier. Being completely new at planning I almost never have any snipe and I'm assuming thats a good thing given how new I am at this. If I was to upgrade I guess it would be to save time and money long term replacing / swapping out the hss blades.

[glenn bradley]

The one on my jointer took care of a lot of tearout issues with figured woods. The knifed planer still tears out now and again and of course, always at the worst possible time.

I am having a hard time justifying a spiral insert head for the lunchbox planer and plan to spend a bit more and go floor standing. I am still early in that process and have not ruled out a wider combo machine. Seems a shame to pay for that wide spiral head and only get to use it one way ;-)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Glenn,

What combo machine are you considering?

[Ben Abate]

Aaron,

I never meant or don't mean to insult anyone. And I will apoligize if I have offended anyone. That was never my intention. As I stated earlier I just don't understand what finish guys expect from a planer. That's it nothing more. I think some folks are unrealistic of what a planer is suppose to do. The end product is not the end of the process. I have owned many Asian built machines and I was usually satisfied. In fact the only planer that I wasn't satisfied with was an American made machine. Really. I've been reading posts for years about shelix type heads, seen them work also but was never so impressed that I wanted to change my cutterhead out. Maybe I'm too old to understand that.

again I will apoligize to anyone that I might have offended, never intended to. This is why I don't post much here, since my opinion was different you take it as I'm insulting you and I never meant too. Sorry.




Ben you're looking at this wrong in my opinion. People aren't putting shelix heads in their machines because their machines are junk, they're putting shelix heads in them to get better performance from them than they can get from HSS blades in a standard head.

Same reason we use carbide router bits. They cut better, last longer, and cost more. We don't use them because our router was made in Taiwan or because our domestic router is sub-par. The carbide tool is just the better option.

As for the Taiwan comment, that is purely ridiculous and doesn't really warrant further argument. There are thousands of woodworkers on this forum that use Jet, Grizzly, Delta and other brands of tools from Asian manufacturers with great success and satisfaction. By your logic, the high-end domestic and European tools don't warrant or wouldn't benefit from shelix cutterheads, assumably due to better tolerances. Pooey.

Either way, I think it is wrong to call out those that supposedly compensate for their lack of experience or knowledge about how to use a planer by putting a nice upgrade on the machine.

[Myk Rian]

Go to Holbren, use the SMC10 coupon code, get the head for 10% off.

I have $900 invested in my DW735, and am very happy with it.

[Glen Butler]

Byrd on a lunchbox . . . Not for me, but neither is the lunchbox option to begin with. If it will be your only ever planer then you can't go wrong in the end. But if you dream of larger better machines save your money til you can afford the dream machine. I don't work with exotics, but I do work with hickory a lot. I take my glue ups to a mill with a wide belt sander. Without a shelix head I would constantly get tear out to deep to get worked out by the wide belt sander.

[Eiji Fuller]

Ben,

I for one dont have to agree with you, I don't, to accept and welcome your opinion. It is just that. its your opinion and I dont think you offended anyone.

Anyway. I have an excellent machine, a Hammer A331, and my byrd just arrived at my door this morning. I have had the Hammer for about a year and a few months and have gone thru 4 sets of knives. Thats about 250 bucks. I am working with figured woods more and more and really enjoy the look of quilt and curl. With out a spiral cutter surfacing figured lumber can become a daunting task. dont even ask me how I know. :o

I look at the byrd head as an investment that will save me alot of money in the long run and make my life/work a whole lot easier.

Eiji

[Wesley Jones]

- Less tear out that -most- other planer heads / blades
- Less feed resistance (on a jointer this is nice)
- If you hit a nail then you're only replacing 3-4 carbide teeth which will run you ~$15 vs a new set of blades (yes you could shift the standard blades).
- The initial surface finish is better resulting in -less- sanding (does NOT eliminate sanding). This is due to the head geometry, not carbide vs HSS.
- Carbide stays sharp longer (especially with certain hard woods aka Teak)


While I agree with all of the above statements, I would add another major "advantage" (or two) that these have. I have an 8 inch Grizzly jointer with the equivalent of the Byrd on it and a 20" Grizzly planer with the Byrd on it. These two tools replaced a Delta 22-560 "lunchbox" planer and a very old Craftsman 6" jointer. The main two differences that you will immediately notice are

less tear-out
less noise

I would also say that when putting one on a jointer, you can actually "feel" the difference as well. I had very sharp knives on my jointer when the new 8" arrived and ran a board over it for comparison. I then ran the same board over the Grizzly with the grizzly equivalent to the Byrd and knew immediately that there would never be another board run across that old craftsman again. The Byrd was hands down (no pun intended) much easier on my joints and my ears.

[Mike Cruz]

Grizzly has them on sale right now. I just picked one up for my 8" DJ-20 for $329, I think. I believe it is the same one that fits yours.

[Barry wines]

Has anyone who has used a Byrd head for a fair amount of time experienced any cratering of the tool sockets? In my experience with machining in the factory this is something we encountered. And it was the concern of some tool men that i talked to. Barry

[Dennis Lopeman]

Keith,
... drop the hammer on a Grizzly 8" jointer and I am going to spend the extra bucks and get it with the Grizzly version of the Byrd head. ...


I searched Grizzly and didn't see that one... do you have a link? Or is the Grizzly equipped with the Byrd brand? Thx

Nevermind - I refined my search - I see them now!!

[Dennis Lopeman]

Sooooo.. seeing those grizzly ones - has anyone used them?

and are those carbide cutters interchangeable with the Byrds?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dennis,

If you search using Grizzly G0490X you will find a lot of owners here. The major difference between G0490 and the G0490X is the Grizzly version of the shelix head.

The part numbers at Grizzly are different between the 14mm x 14mm x 2mm cutters for the 2 heads?

But....they are both German made carbide.

[Dennis Lopeman]

Although I absolutely SURE that I need a bigger than 6" jointer - I need to get my $$ worth out of this Delta DJ15 - I'm thinking of giving it the Byrd Job... just so I can love it more. LOL...

[Eiji Fuller]

tool sockets?

[Van Huskey]

tool sockets?

I assume he means the machined face that indexes/holds the cutter insert.

Not sure what amount of use he is considering but I have never read of any issues in this regard. If an insert was not seated properly or improperly torqued I could see it wallowing out the metal that indexes the insert but machining wood doesn't seem like it would have the force to cause wallow in any resonable time. Impacts hard enough to cause it seem to me would break the carbide inserts.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have an SCMI 520 with a Tersa, and you would be hard pressed to find a better finish from a planer. I looked at both and bought the Tersa head. The machine is very quiet, you can talk in a normal voice while standing next to it.

That being said, I am thinking of buying a second floor model planer with an insert head just for all of the man made materials that I have been working with. Azek tears up M42 in short order, and I would like to keep the mess seperate. Azek gets in everything!

Any of you guys with an insert head planed any Azek or similar? Any problems?

[Fred Damkroger]

Recently installed Byrd heads in my General 15" planer from Grizzly, and PM 6" jointer from Holbren. First, the performance is superb. I have ran walnut, elm and aromatic cedar through both machines and mercy, is it smooth.
CS from all three vendors was very good. Holbren gave me a SMC discount, and kept me informed throughout a lengthy backorder on the head. Grizzly's price was *very* good.
Encountered a loud howling noise with the planer, and the folks at Byrd sent me a diagram of a possible problem of a gear in wrong. Kept in touch with emails and phone calls until it was fixed. Turned out to be a bad bearing, my fault.
I would do it again in a heartbeat, I hate changing knives.

[Paul Johnstone]

I didn't read the entire thread, but IMO, you'd be better off spending the money to upgrade the lunchbox planer to a floor standing one (if that is possible). A floor standing one can make deeper passes and it saves a ton of time planing. Also, the floor standing ones have a longer expected lifespan. I too would question spending so much $$ on a Byrd for a lunchbox planer.

I used blades for a long time, and was satisified. I'm just a hobbyist, so a set of blades lasted a long time. This made the changing blades/and cost of doing it a non-issue really.

I upgraded my planer again (on my third one). I got the Byrd on this one. It is really nice. However, if money was tight, I would've just gotten blades on it. I was fortunate to be able to get my dream planer, so I just went for it.

I never got around to putting a Byrd on my jointer. For me, it's not worth the hassle. (I could afford to do it).. Again, jointer blades last a long time for me. I end up planing and sanding the joined face anyhow, so that takes care of the tearout issues.

[Jim Andrew]

I saw most of my own wood, from trees on my property, and most of them are not 1st grade. But it seems as though defects are in style. The byrd is great on less than perfect lumber. And also, I am about to be 59 years old, and I don't see as good as I did when I was 20 years younger, and I don't miss adjusting the blades. As to the heads getting worn by the cutters, suppose that happens. But they use these heads in industry, so suppose they last a long time. And I don't run my jointer 8 or 16 hours a day.

[Mike Cruz]

I just put a Byrd on my jointer and LOVE it. The jointer is no noisier with the DC on than with it off. If that is making you scratch your head, let me just say that my 20" planer runs VERY quiet without the DC on. But with the DC on, it whines so loud that it is VERY annoying. So, that alone would be a worthwhile reason to get the Byrd for my planer. Of course, that would set me back $700 or $800....money that I just can't justify spending on my planer.

I have to agree with the post two above me that questions whether the Byrd head is a good idea for a lunchbox planer. I, too, would spend the money first to upgrade to a 15" floor model first. Then, later, put a Byrd head on it when/if you can afford it.

[Nathan Palenski]

Do all the byrd heads use the same blades? If I get a byrd head for my planer and jointer, can draw from the same set of inserts for both?

[Mike Cruz]

I THINK so, but don't quote me on it. I haven't seen extra replacement packs for individual units....just replacement packs.

[Gary Herrmann]

The inserts for my jointer and planer heads are interchangeable.

[Mark Lawrence]

How difficult is it too install the Byrd cuuterhead? I have a 20 year old Delta DJ -20.

[Homer Faucett]

I think there has been some great points made, but I think it is important to reiterate that a lunchbox planer uses a universal motor, and therefore has a limited lifespan. I have some woodworking machines with induction motors (the types you see on floor standing jointers and planers) that are still original from the 50's, and going strong. A shelix head with carbide inserts has a high likelihood of outlasting a lunchbox planer, and by the time you have spent $500 on the planer and $400 on the shelix, you could have easily picked up a used 15" or maybe a 20" floor model.

On the other hand, it's not likely that you can get a carbide head in one of those for less than another $550, so I guess you can pick your poison as long as it makes you happy.

Second, I've used straight HSS knives on a 6" jointer for the past 6 years. I hone the blades on the machine, and don't feel the need to replace or sharpen the blades more than about once per year, and I joint a fair amount of oak and maple. Exotics are clearly much harder on HSS, as I have experienced from Jatoba, cocobolo, etc., so take that into consideration.

With straight knives, I do get tearout if the grain reverses, or if I'm not paying attention to the grain. I agree that there is almost no way to prevent tearout on reversing or tricky with straight blades other than angling the piece, taking light cuts, and maybe wetting the surface. But tearout is really only a problem on that truly tricky grain, so I don't see a great benefit from using a shelix on the vast majority of lumber an average hobbyist would run through a jointer.

I just upgraded my jointer and planer. Jointing width is important to me, so I got a 12" machine. It was a used Robland with straight carbide knives. I also picked up a 20" Asian planer for one heckuva deal, and am seriously considering dropping on a shelix or the Grizzly equivalent if it will work. I always wear ear protection in the shop, so the noise is not the driving factor for me. I want to be able to joint wide boards, and I'm not overly concerned about tearout from jointing because that can be fixed during planing.

My solution was to save some dough on the jointer by buying used with straight blades so that I can justify plunking down the money on a 20" shelix if I so decide. I'm still going to run the 20 knives until their dull before I pull the trigger, though. IMHE, a hobbyist doesn't tend to wear these down that fast if the lumber is cleaned off before running them through.

Just my experiences and thoughts.

[Mike Cruz]

Mark, I JUST did it on a 20 year old DJ-20. Hard? No. But you kinda need to know what you are doing. My brother, a master Mercedes-Benz technician, helped me (did it for me, while I "helped"). Seeing what he did, I realized I "could" have done it, if I had known what to do. I have to admit that I was VERY happy to have him do it...

[Michael Schwartz]

I recently upgraded my PM 60 Jointer which is about 30 years old to the Byrd Shelix head, and I also purchased a used Delta DC380 and had a Byrd head installed in that as well.

Impressions.


Scalloping. The heads definitely leave a very minor scalloped cut, but sanding that out is not a problem.

Tear Out. The finish is free of tear out in most circumstances. Wood that is not very sound combined with tricky grain can still cause some tear out. I am looking at piece of curly maple right now that I ran through and there is zero tear out. I still run anything particularly crazy through the drum sander.

Overall Finish.

The heads produce a finish that is free of tear out most of the time regardless of grain direction and requires minimal sanding. I have put over 1000 board feet through both machines so far, and the finish is the same as when the heads were brand new.

If you plan to apply finish right out of the planer, which is sometimes appropriate in production work and finish carpentry the scalloping may be a problem. However for most work, a planer shouldn't be used to produce a finished surface anyway, and I find quite a bit less sanding is required, then when I ran conventional knives.

Noise Levels.

The noise levels while cutting, are not much louder than the running noise of the machine, dust collector, etc... I still wear hearing protection, but the reduced noise levels are very nice.

Would I do it again?

Yes and no. I enjoy having the head in the planer, and wouldn't go back. I could see having two jointers, one with and the other without.

With the jointer, it takes extra effort to feed the board, which when milling long rough stock this becomes apparent. If I could only pick one I would still go with the Byrd Head on the jointer. If I buy a second larger jointer, I may opt for conventional or tersa knives.

I feel the investment was worthwhile, and I am very pleased. Tersa, and other systems with indexable knives are worth considering as well.

Conventional knives are easy to change on a jointer at least, since you can work above the table, and a planer gets used to remove more material so I would give priority to a planer.

[David Weaver]

I'm popping up here as a hand tool woodworker. I thickness probably half of my stock by hand (with hand planes and if warranted by large or way over thickness stock, removing most of the stock by resawing). I don't know if there's a more "skilled" way to thickness stock than with hadn planes.

I'm not sure that i understand the argument that they're an end-around on skill, as if there is some pride or magic in feeding a board through the first time and not having to turn it around on the second pass.

IF I were a power tool user, more than just the bandsaw, I would pay the price for a shelix in a second. My ww buddy, pretty much a power fanatic, has a shelix on his jointer and on a DC580 planer with a machinist readout setup. The dimensioned stock that comes thicknessed out of it could be sanded with 220 grit paper - no matter how heavily figured it is.

The "skill" of preparing stock never did exist as a high-level woodworking skill like joinery or design, and was done by shop grunts, so I don't understand what the fascination would be using a tool more difficult to use to do rank and file type jobs just to be able to say you can.

Even just the noise difference, especially planing thing items, is spectacular. You can plane without earplugs. Spend the money, you'll never miss it, but you'll absolutely love the results you get. Wear gloves the first time you work with a large amount of stock - you'll be shocked how precise the finish is and how sharp the corners of the stock are.

[Will Blick]

Michael S., thank you for the well composed and informative post....

I was considering upgrading my 12" jointer with Byrd, but might not after reading your assessment. It does make sense the planer is the tool that would get the most value from Byrds....

which I am in the market for one now... I am curious why Powermatic is the only company that offers the Byrd as an installed option?

[John Ferandin]

I changed out my 5 yr old PJ-882 head for the Byrd Shelix about six months ago (very easy to do) and am wondering why I took so long to do it.
I am getting ready now between jobs to do the same to my Jet 15" planer.

Grizzly's pricing was hands down better than any where else I could. New bearings are available anywhere (got mine at Grainger). Thirty buck to have the bearings pressed on at a machine shop made the job very easy and quick.

Good luck,
John

[Will Blick]

John.... $950 to change out my 12" jointer with Byrd...

It's clear thickness planers are no-brainers for Shelix.... soon, they will all probably ship with Shelix.

But what made you so high on the Jointer change out?

Maybe you can comment on my thoughts, for what I do...

I can change out straight blades fast, no big deal there... I use the dispoz a blade system. Fresh blades = Dead flat and dead smooth surface. I hate to surrender that for a scalloped finish...I can eat through lots of extra straight blades for the $950.

As I read these posts, I hear tear-out with highly figured woods being a big benefit of Shelix... but I rarely if ever have tear out. And when I work with the highly figured or Exotics, they are always relaively small pieces, say smaller than 2ft. In which case, my hand jointer blades are so damn sharp I can tackle anything with them... and I never thickness those knarly woods, cause they usually get re-sawed down.

Sometimes the type of wood, working methods, and volume we produce are not mentioned in posts, which can make a weekend warrior think he would benefit as much as high volume producer who uses mostly highly exotic woods. So based on what I wrote about what I do.... you still think the $950 Byrd is worthwhile? I have been on the fence about this for a few months...

[John Ferandin]

Will,
I would go the route you've gone if a Shelix was to run me $950. I also considered a Tersa head for the jointer but it was in the $600 range. Grizzly had the Shelix for under $300 which was hard to beat.
I changed out the head after getting tired of having the three sets of blades sharpened poorly and not holding an edge all that long (Koa, etc.). I'm in Hawaii and there are very few sharpening shops to do business with. I've ended up sending everything to California to have sharpened but that's getting old.

The planer decision is based on the above as well as never really getting a great finish. Additionally that beast is loud. One quick stop in the local Woodcraft where they demo'd the Powermatic with Shelix head and I was hooked. That baby wispered compared to a straight knife machine.
I also like the continuity of cutters between the two machines. Life will be much easier with both using the same tooling.
I did get a quote for a Tersa head for the 15" and it was in the $800 range before knives. Not a hard decision for me on that one. Neither machine is really worth that kind of retrofit.

My next planer and jointer will most likely be Western European by manufacture and will probably have a Tersa head but that is a few years down the road. (I was spoiled by a set of Martin's at the Alpine Technical Workshops in January - very nice machines)

So far I'm very happy with the Shelix cut, maintenance level, and sound reduction, and life extension of two workhorses. Well worth it for me.

John

[Will Blick]

Thanks John....

Since I always start with the side of the board which is "better" for jointing, I would guess my planer does 8x the workload vs my jointer as there is always much thicknessing going on as well.... so Shelix is very warranted for that extra hogging on the planer......

as for noise.... not an issue, as my cyclone is so loud, I use hearing protection regardless....