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Dale Sautter
05-14-2010, 10:33 AM
Google for "Unbelievable New Chisels", as I understand that we can't link to other forums...

This sure sounds promising! Sounds like CPM 3V will find its way into more and more uses/shops with time. Also sounds like it won't be all that tough to sharpen/hone using diamond paste and that using high end stones won't cut the mustard here. Just wondering if anyone else might have comments, and why is it that woodworkers in general seem to lag behind the knife makers on this edge of the slope?...

The following is a quote on page 10 of that thread when asked: "At what bevel angle ranges and rc hardness has CPM 3V been found to work optimally at?"



I don't have definite answer, but will tell you what I know. An optimum hardness would be based on what you would be using it for. Crucible recommends a hardness of RC 58-60, but thats for steel dies. With wood work, we're not demanding that kind of toughness. I went with a hardness of RC 61, which is at the higher end based on information that I have gotten from old knifemakers who do nothing but make knives for a living. They said that even at the max hardness Crucible recommends, they haven't seen any chipping or edge fracturing. Their judgment is good enough for me, and they have been proven right. As I researched the use of 3V, I saw that it has been used well before my tests and they found that the edge doesn't start to roll until you get down to a 17° bevel and that a 25° bevel works just fine in mortise chisels. I have no proof of this but I don't doubt their words in any way.

I don't have a picture yet, but a fellow knife maker said that a client took a 3V blade hardened to RC 61, drove it into a stump and then took a pipe and bent it 180°, basically into a U. It did not crack or chip, he did that 3 times before it broke. This was around a campfire at a hunting camp so I have no doubt adult beverages were involved. There is a picture of it and I am hunting it down.

I know this is not a definite answer, but it is what I know. Torture tests are down the road as I know this will become an issue.


Wouldn't it be fantastic to be able to have a 20° - 25° bevel for a low angle miter plane that would not chip out, and an edge that would survive many hours of end grain planing!?

Jim Koepke
05-14-2010, 11:39 AM
It looks as though they may require a completely different sharpening set up for some users.

This could be a deal killer for some.

As the steel becomes tougher for doing the work, it becomes tougher to get into shape to do the work.

jim

Dale Sautter
05-14-2010, 12:30 PM
I believe you're right Jim... think it'll be a "deal maker" too if I've found the right diamond sharpening paste (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=diamond+sharpening+paste&_sacat=0&_odkw=diamond+past&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=m270). A couple/few tubes of that stuff and a discarded cast iron tablesaw top or top extension via Craigslist, you're good to go. Much cheaper than the Shapton approach that only works on HCS too. Hope this pans out as well as it's looking... and I suppose that having a belt grinder with ceramic belts wouldn't hurt too. Again, that doesn't have to cost too much...

Zach England
05-14-2010, 12:35 PM
Dang, I knew I shouldn't have ordered those Lie-Nielsens.

Bob Strawn
05-14-2010, 1:57 PM
7 Reasons why woodworkers are behind knifemakers on metallurgy.

1. Knife makers are metal workers. Woodworkers work wood.:rolleyes:

2 I suspect that the adoption of finer steels in knives came in part by the introduction of ceramic sharpening sticks. More advanced steels can be a real pain to sharpen on a lot of conventional systems. :(

3 Woodworkers tend to focus on wood and productivity and with the standard advice of sticking to a sharpening system and learning it, a lot of woodworkers have a strong resistance to exploring new systems.

4 2 out of 3 innovations in sharpening are rendered useless by an hour of good instruction by someone who knows how to sharpen and how to teach sharpening. Also a lot of folk struggle and struggle with sharpening and finally get to where they can hold their hand just right and do a good job.

They don't understand it clearly enough to explain, so the last thing they want to do is anything that will change anything. Since it was such a frustrating struggle to get to where they could manage to produce an edge, change is frightening.

Without adopting at least in some cases, more advanced sharpening materials, the new steels are going to be a real pain to put a good edge on.

5 The odd spot in history that we sit in. After WWII, the modern tool era took over and horrid stuff started to be cranked out. No mentor was there to help woodworkers to know what was good, so there was no real pressure to make good. Horrid electric drills ended up replacing amazing braces. People started to believe that factory sharp, was.

As the post modern era took over, early Neanderthal's, even before the name Galoot was applied, talked by news letter, or in rare cases bulletin boards. They knew that the old tools were the good tools There were so many amazing tools at auctions and flea markets. Any good tool that did not have enough bling and ivory to make it valuable, had to be saved from the saw painters and planter makers. Quite generously, they spread the word and came up with very trusting methods of distributing these wonderful tools, generously sharing what they had gleaned in the way of woodworking.

So now we have woodworkers who have recovered a good part of what their grandfathers knew, and may even in a few areas know a bit more. Many of these woodworkers have benefited from the information that the web addicted Neanderthals have put on these forums, but then they got tired of the endless sharpening debates and have gone back to the shops to do wood working, and only lurk when they need answers or ideas. A lot of them have nice tools already.

6. The old steel is not broken. O1 is a great metal, durable, edge holding, tough and easily sharpened, if it is tempered well. Old tools can be tuned up, and if you already have a huge set of good, functional tools, the last thing you want to hear is that the new blades are better.

7. Old tools work really well. New tools that work well are usually made by folk that looked real closely at old tools. Too many of the shiny new tools are lame but flashy designs or made by child labor in a distant land. New is suspect for a very good reason.


I have played around with the new steels enough to know that the new blades will be better. This does not mean that O1 will be gone. O1 is great stuff. I can temper it without too much trouble. A tool can be made with it much more easily. People who make tools will also be able to cut corners and make just as bad a tool with the new metals as they did with the old ones. I am sure that a lot of them will continue to do business by hype and not substance. What I like, however are the options.

I think that we will soon enough see mortise chisels that can also be used to clean up dovetails. This means that the range of chisels that you need may be simplified considerably. If a beater stays sharp and can survive with a low angle, then half of your chisels are no longer needed or convenient. If a light chisel is able to take the abuse that used to be left for the bulky chisels, your tool box is lighter. If an edge holds up longer and is rust resistant, then the iron you buy for your plane, may just last the rest of your life, even if you are a production woodworker.

So we may see some real economy come out of this. Less metal, more range, longer lifetime means the new tools may end up being the value buy. My thought is to get a few to replace your most abused tools as they wear out. No need for your entire plow blade collection to be replaced, just the two you actually use.

But first, people who adopt these tools are going to have to adopt modern sharpening medias.

Bob

Dave Anderson NH
05-14-2010, 2:26 PM
Great distillation of the recent history of hand tools Bob. I laughed heartily about sneaking back to the bench to do actual woodworking instead of acquiring more tools. I look at my woodworking purchases now and compare them to a few years ago and the differences are amazing. Now the folks at the woodworking stores see me mostly when I come in to buy hardware or some more finishing materials. Recently at my local Woodcraft one of the clerks asked me where I had been and said that he hadn't seen me in months. I was there for a guild Period Furniture meeting and after it was over walked out without spending a cent. I figure I should be back there again in about 6 months.

John Schreiber
05-14-2010, 3:26 PM
. . . why is it that woodworkers in general seem to lag behind the knife makers on this edge of the slope?...
. . .
Woodworkers who use tools inevitably use edge tools until they are dull then sharpen them - repeatedly. Typically there is a consistent trade off between the speed that an edge dulls and the amount of time it takes to sharpen it. Sharpening becomes part of the process of woodworking.

An awful lot of knife buyers are collectors will demonstrate how sharp their blade is on occasion, but do not use them regularly. Even if they are buying a knife for frequent use, a knife owner doesn't inevitably have the skills to resharpen. This puts a high premium on blades which keep their edge for a long time, even if it means it will never be resharpened when it does get dull.

Bob Strawn
05-14-2010, 3:44 PM
Recently at my local Woodcraft one of the clerks asked me where I had been and said that he hadn't seen me in months. I was there for a guild Period Furniture meeting and after it was over walked out without spending a cent. I figure I should be back there again in about 6 months.

Not much point in your buying a tool when you know you can make one better! (http://www.chestertoolworks.com/) Seriously, if Joel is willing to sell your tools (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-CHESTMK.XX), they are probably more than fit for the job.

I can imagine you taking a sketch book out at the Woodcraft, not so much to copy their design, but to jot down how you would do it better!

Bob

Dan O'Sullivan
05-15-2010, 9:21 PM
Dave
Its funny how the sharpening thing takes on a life of it's own. I have read lots of messages about going to 8000 stones and other very fine grits. I have not seen the projects(photos) that they produce. Its a tough balance to maintain: work the wood with a good edge or stay at the stone and get that killer edge. I still base my return to the stone/leather/paste on the action of the tool on the wood. Experience polishes the balance.

Dan

Rick Markham
05-16-2010, 2:42 AM
I agree completely with that John! Having been a professional Chef for many years, we preferred the same characteristics in steel that woodworkers like, A durable edge that can be gotten extremely sharp, but still easy to sharpen. Even in that industry, there are many "professionals" who carry around dull knives... I generally could judge someone's knife skills pretty accurately by the condition of their knives, and sharpening skills. I was fortunate to have an amazing chef teach me my sharpening skills, I honestly can't think of one person I met in that industry besides who my chef taught who had a knife even remotely as sharp ;) and those are the professionals! The average persons kitchen knives, even when they are the nicest ones, are absolutely abhorrent!

Steve knight
05-16-2010, 2:57 AM
the main reason why knives metallurgy has far outpaced woodworking metallurgy is money. Far more money is made selling knives then in selling chisels. so of course follows more exotic materials are easier to sell.

Dave Diaman
05-16-2010, 8:25 AM
Hey guys, I am the guy who has been testing these. I have to say that this steel is just unreal. The edge retention is unlike anything I have ever seen. Comparing these to my Japanese blue steel chisels is like comparing a Home Depot Buck Brothers chisel to blue steel. Just to give you an idea I chopped dovetails in 8 drawers with one 3/8” bench chisel and one ½” fishtail chisel and when I was finished both would still shave. That was with curly hard maple as the primary wood and curly soft maple as the secondary wood. I can’t even imagine how long these will last in poplar or white pine. I make my living in the shop so time spent working instead of sharpening is huge for me.

The sharpening is a little more difficult on these but a cheap set of diamond stones or some diamond grit sand paper makes quick work of it. After the initial sharpening all I have had to do is touch them up ever 150 dovetails or so on a leather stop with some diamond compound on it. I have been using diamond abrasives for a long time so this wasn’t really a change for me. I think John may be planning on sending these out already sharp in the future so that will take care of the initial sharpening.

The guy who made these chisels for me isn’t the first guy to try it but I am pretty sure that he is the first one who is trying to put them into production along with plane blades in custom steels. He is going to be sending me some additional steels to try out and I have sent some of these along to a friend I have at a magazine and I pretty sure they will be just as impressed as I have been. He is also sending some custom plane blades to another woodworker which I think are going to see equal success.

Below is a picture of the set of bench chisels I have and one of the fishtail chisels I have. The guy who is making these is basically going to build the chisel to your specs. I don’t think he has his final pricing complete yet but from what he is telling me his prices should be comparable to L-N and Blue Spruce which is a bargain when you consider what you are getting. I think he is also going to offer a kit which includes just the iron and the ferrule along with mounting instructions for anyone who likes to make their own handles.

Since I don’t think I am allowed to post links here anyone who wants to contact him can feel free to send ma a PM or email and I can give you his information. I think he is starting a waiting list and will be starting production of these soon. I don’t think he was expecting the testing on these to go as well as it has so he is still trying to get some things lined up before he starts production.


to see the scale

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0046.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0047.jpg

Very well balanced

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0054.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0053.jpg

Taper is perfect for dovetails

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0050.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0051.jpg

Full set of dovetail chisels minus the 1/8 and 1/4 which are on the way

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/Chiselset.jpg

Rick Markham
05-16-2010, 9:33 AM
Those are some purdy Chisels... just my 2 cents though why not make them sockets, instead of Tangs. If I personally am going to drop some money on a set of nice chisels (and I am looking right now) I want socket chisels, simply so I can change handles. I want to be able too make my own handles easily for comfort, have the ability to change to longer handles for paring, and replace the handles when they become worn. The steel (especially if his real world results are true) then the chisels will definitely see many lifetimes worth of handles. Just a thought ;)

Larry Frank
05-16-2010, 7:57 PM
I would also rather have socket chisels but would guess that to produce those would take significantly more material to be able to turn the socket area and there would be a lot of waste in the chisel area. This material may be more difficult to turn than some of the other tool steels such as A2 or O1.

I looked at the prices for this material on some of the knife websites and it is not cheap.

I read through several of the sites talking about how this material is produced. The liquid metal is sprayed producing very small spheres. These are then put in a press at high temps to produce a very dense material. There is no doubt that this process produces a product that is superior to more convential methods of tool steel production in terms of less or no segregation and much finer and uniform dispersion of the hard carbide particles.

I would not mind trying this material if it was just the increased cost of the material but the additional cost to go to diamond sharpening puts it out of my reach. My sharpening skills are improving with the water stones and can a pretty good sharp chisel. I do not know if my skills are good enough for this material.

It will be interesting to get read the feedback as more people work with this material in chisels and plane blades.

Dave Diaman
05-16-2010, 8:19 PM
Larry is correct. It is just not feasible for a small custom chisel maker to produce socket type chisels due to the machining and material cost involved. This steel is a great deal more expensive than A2 and much harder to work from what I am told. I am not even sure if it is available in bar stock.

Rick Markham
05-16-2010, 9:28 PM
That makes sense, I appreciate the info.

george wilson
05-16-2010, 11:23 PM
I recall MSC co. selling that steel,but discontinued it in their next catalog. It was horribly expensive. Maybe they just didn't sell enough. I was thinking about buying a bar of it. I can't recall the size,but it wasn't very big,and was $150.00 for a bar.

Jim Koepke
05-17-2010, 2:22 AM
Old tools can be tuned up, and if you already have a huge set of good, functional tools, the last thing you want to hear is that the new blades are better.

Not so much don't want to hear as getting tired of hearing.
It seems there is always going to be something better. Currently, I find the surface that is left by my original Stanley blades is just as smooth as any other blade will leave.

Most of the time, any of the new blades on the market is going to set me back more than the plane in which it is going to be used.

Currently, I get worn out at about the same time as one of my old blades has worn down a couple of times. So, the mid day sharpening is a bit of a respite from the hard work.

Also, I am very picky about my handles and that is one reason most of my chisels are socket chisels. It is possible to put a different handle on a tang chisel, but the method of getting it right has not yet come to me.

So as fantastic as the new steels may be, the old steels still have not worn down to unusability in my use.

My current belief is that most tools are probably worn down more by improper methods of sharpening than by any other cause.

jim

Bob Strawn
05-18-2010, 10:25 PM
Also, I am very picky about my handles and that is one reason most of my chisels are socket chisels. It is possible to put a different handle on a tang chisel, but the method of getting it right has not yet come to me.

So as fantastic as the new steels may be, the old steels still have not worn down to unusability in my use.

My current belief is that most tools are probably worn down more by improper methods of sharpening than by any other cause.

jim

To get a tang chisel perfect, I cheat. I take a section of drill rod and grind it to match the chisel tang. Then I drill a hole in the block I plan to make the handle from. I then chisel the drill hole into a mortise for the tang to go in. Now I have a rough handle with a straight steel stem. I chuck the stem and bring in the tailstock to support the handle end. with that it is real easy to make a nicely centered handle. With a good ferrule at the front it should last every bit as long as a socket chisel.

I don't mind sharpening, so that is not the reason I am excited about these steels. The ability to have a fine angle on a beater and have it survive osage and other nasty hard woods is what interests me.

I strongly agree about the sharpening methods wearing down more steel. That is just one of the reasons why I am fond of a single bevel.

Bob

Dale Sautter
05-18-2010, 10:48 PM
Great idea Bob! Coulda had a V8 moment for me... :)

Funny... I just talked to someone at Crucible today, they do have ~+1/4" thick x 2" wide bar x 36" long 3V in stock. She told me the name of their new Company/Division who will be making it from here on out, but forgot what she said. She said they do have a bunch in stock, but it's not cheap! Quoted me a price of $109 for the bar I mentioned (I'm thinking plane irons), after shaping it would still need heat treatment. Sounds like there is a fella in Idaho who has done the heat treating for Buck Knives, and he has a stellar recipe for 3V. Haven't pulled the "Buy Now!" trigger yet... maybe tomorrow... thinking...

Wes Grass
05-19-2010, 12:47 AM
Back in the old days, when 'steel' was made by beating the carbon out of wrought iron by hand, and hence *expensive*, they made cutting tools by welding these expensive bits onto chunks of cheaper material. Kind of like the Japanese chisels that are still widely available today.

Can't for the life of me understand why anybody would *waste* a large qty of precious, expensive, exotic, hard to machine material like this on the entire shank of a chisel.

Hint: a little chip of this silver brazed into a notch ground into a LN (or cheaper) socket chisel seems like a more efficient way to go.

Pam Niedermayer
05-19-2010, 1:15 AM
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Hey guys, I am the guy who has been testing these...

Dave, who made your chisels? I'm gearing up for CPM 3V work (for some special carving chisels), testing out diamond paste, etc. Also, I just bought two Tasai special dovetail chisels (a 6mm Type 1 and 9mm Type 2 for those who may know something about Tasai products), and I'd love to compare your CPM dovetail chisel to the Tasai (won't get these for about two months, so no hurry). Anyhow, I'd love for my first CPM chisel to not be one I cobbled together.

Thanks,
Pam

Chris Friesen
05-19-2010, 1:31 AM
Hint: a little chip of this silver brazed into a notch ground into a LN (or cheaper) socket chisel seems like a more efficient way to go.

Actually, that's a good point. How about a layer of this stuff (or M4) laminated to some nice soft steel? We'd have powder metal japanese blades...

Rick Markham
05-19-2010, 1:37 AM
Wes, that was kind of what I was thinking. Why should the sockets have to be machined from the same stock. I understand for simplicity sake of the small tool maker, he is the one doing the work. It's an interesting idea.

I am like Jim though, I have my specific preferences in handles and how they feel in my hand. The true allure of sockets over tang chisels (for me anywho) is simply if I want to change handles mid stream, from a short handle to a long paring handle, it doesn't require any more than a few seconds to change. I think balance is an especially great quality in a hand tool, however if the handle doesn't fit my hand like a proverbial glove, then my hand is going to wear out long before the edge does anyway. A comfortable tool is a wonderful tool to use!

I love the idea of custom made chisels, with an amazing great new steel. I would love to see how they work in some horrendously hard wood compared to comparable quality chisels of other steels. Bottom line though, is the cost worth the difference? That is what each of us has to consider.

I too would love to see how a wickedly thick plane iron out of this stuff in a 55 degree bed performs in a nice smoothing plane. (I will gladly accept donations to have Ron Brese make me a "test" plane LOL) :D Just kidding... seriously though ;)

george wilson
05-19-2010, 10:40 AM
Wes,slag,or silicon inclusions were beaten out of wrought iron to purify it. You can still see small layers of inclusions in real wrought iron. It is valued for out door work because the inclusions help keep rust from penetrating too deep. The demise of wrought iron was the advent of electric welding. Wrought iron doesn't electric weld well,while low carbon steel does. Wrought iron was much preferred for forge welding. Carbon was ADDED by case hardening bundles of rolled wrought iron rods for a long time in large sandstone chests in furnaces that looked like giant brick funnels. The hardening materials contained all kinds of secret recipes. Some contained the urine of a red headed boy,urine of a wine drinking friar,and all manner of stuff. All the recipes that worked contained carbonaceous material like leather scraps,charcoal,etc.. After casehardening,bundles of the rods were bound together and heated up to welding heat,and welded together. These rods were about 1/2" dia. The carbon did not penetrate clear through.

This was called Shear Steel.,and was the common grade of tool steel. If the bundle was doubled over,and re welded,it was Double Shear Steel. The advantage of doubling the steel over was that the layers of soft wrought iron,and hard carbon steel were made smaller,so you'd have smaller dull spots in your knives,etc.

A frustrated watch maker,Benjamin Huntsman,tired of numerous springs breaking due to these hard and soft layers in his steel,invented crucible steel in the early 18th.C.. He chopped up shear steel,and put the chunks into crucibles with some carbonaceous material like charcoal. He had no idea that carbon was the key. All work was accomplished by trial and error until a way to do it was discovered. Then,he melted the mass down to make homogeneous steel without the layering. The steel was poured into ingots. This is where the term "cast steel" came from. This process was still in use even in the earlier 20th.C. in England.

Grading the content of this early steel was strictly by "eye". Bars of steel were made and hardened. Then,they were broken in two. An experienced man would classify the grade of tool steel by examining the grain coarseness or fineness. He would then class the steel as "spindle steel",the lowest grade,"knife steel",or "razor steel",the highest carbon content steel.

English iron had sulfur in it,and was not good quality. They had no idea about why their iron was bad. They imported Swedish iron for many years. It was called "Hoop Iron",and came in different grades. The gun barrels that were made in Spain were very highly prized. Numerous legends about why they were better circulated. Some thought it was the air in Spain that was superior. After the English discovered how to burn out the sulfur from their iron,their domestic iron got much better. Nevertheless, The Titanic's Achilles heel was partly the poor grade steel in it's hull.

Hardly anything was known about chemistry until about 1830. After chemistry began to be understood,better ways to make and classify steels and everything else,began to be found.

I have an 1865 chemistry book. It is about 1 1/4" thick. My 1903 chemistry book by the same publisher is about 3" thick. It is interesting to read the earlier book and see how many processes were "not yet understood."

Wes Grass
05-19-2010, 2:51 PM
'Iron', as we know it today, is iron with a high carbon level. Stirring molten iron burns the carbon out as it's exposed to air. As the carbon content of the iron drops, into the range we know as 'steel', the melting point of the iron goes up. Up to where it's no longer fluid at coal furnace temperatures. Hence, getting it lower to make steel required hammering it out to expose more surface area to burn the carbon out. Until the Bessemer process came along, making it cheap.

David Weaver
05-19-2010, 2:58 PM
Actually, that's a good point. How about a layer of this stuff (or M4) laminated to some nice soft steel? We'd have powder metal japanese blades...

Or better yet, pre industrial revolution wrought iron, though that probably makes more sense with white and blue steel - the m4 might be hard enough to sharpen to negate the benefit.

David Weaver
05-19-2010, 3:03 PM
Not so much don't want to hear as getting tired of hearing.


I agree, and everyone lands sort of in different spots before they find inertia.

I don't mind sharpening HSS when I have to use it for something where non-hss is a pain (like thicknessing cocobolo).

But for chisels, my nirvana occurs with the combination of very old wrought iron and a thin lamination of white steel. It's so easy and pleasant to sharpen that I don't think I can ever view sharpening as a chore.

I do see the sharpening of HSS as a chore, though not a tough one if you don't let it get to the point where you're not making sure everything stays in order for the next sharpening (and aiding sharpening either with diamonds or a high speed leather strop with compound on it).

I'm out of the loop for this one until they are cheap.

John Payne01
05-19-2010, 3:54 PM
Pam

I made the chisels that Dave is using. What questions do you have?

John

Rick Markham
05-19-2010, 4:33 PM
George, you never cease to amaze me... Seriously. Your depth of knowledge on woodworking/ metallurgy and your tool making is truly amazing. My knowledge of Chemistry never went into metallurgy hopefully that will change in my current studies (I'm sure I will get way more than I care for)

george wilson
05-19-2010, 4:34 PM
We actually made wrought iron twice in Williamsburg as a demonstration in small furnaces.

Bruce Haugen
05-19-2010, 4:39 PM
We actually made wrought iron twice in Williamsburg as a demonstration in small furnaces.

George,
I swear it would be easier to list the things you haven't done than the ones you have.

David Weaver
05-19-2010, 5:04 PM
We actually made wrought iron twice in Williamsburg as a demonstration in small furnaces.

Did you get to keep any of it? I guess I don't know anyone who is a threat to forge weld a piece of hard steel to a piece of wrought iron, though.

I have no idea of the technical differences of one batch of wrought iron from another, but I have noticed that some tools I have that claim to have wrought iron in them are softer than others when they hit the stones. I'm kind of surprised by that.

John Payne01
05-19-2010, 5:06 PM
Plane blades will be tested in the near future.

John

Pam Niedermayer
05-19-2010, 5:15 PM
Pam

I made the chisels that Dave is using. What questions do you have?

John

My main question is will you make me one? Feel free to PM me, or email me at pam@pinehill.com

Pam

John Payne01
05-19-2010, 5:18 PM
Yes. I'm getting ready to gear up for production. What type and size were you looking for?

John

george wilson
05-19-2010, 5:46 PM
Just erased my post!!! To be brief,we got wrought iron from old bridges that were torn down,old light house fitting companies,and large,old wrought iron fences.

The blacksmith shop often welds steel bits to wrought iron bodies for chisels,plane blades,axes,etc..

They like to only use 1070 carbon steel. No higher,because it burns up too badly at welding heat. 1070 is harder to get than wrought iron. They don't make it anymore. Wrought iron is easily spotted by its wood like grain,and can be identified. 1070 can't easily be told without chemical analysis. I've seen plenty of huge old ship's chains and anchors made from it,as it resists rusting due to the silicon layers in it. It rusts,but not clear through for quite a few years.

The imported Swedish wrought iron came in different grades. I know of 10. The best grade,at 34 pounds per ton,was GL double bullet and Hoop L. The best English Yorkshire iron was only 18 pounds per ton. It was "hot short" because of sulfur.

Superior metal was also gotten from Austria and Germany. it was discovered in Austria in the 17th.C.,that if some cast iron was mixed into the wrought iron bloom,hardenable steel would result. No one knew why. German ore contained tungsten,and was called Wolfram(sp?). Cullen steel was also imported. It was so named because it passed through Cologne.

I should mention that in France,a natural STEEL ore was used. The French did not know how the English made carbon steel even in the 18th.C.,and sent Reamur,an industrial spy to try to learn the secret.This book is from 1722,IIRC. He never did,but when reading "Reamur's Memiors",it can be seen that he had eventually correctly GUESSED how they did it.

There were a few natural deposits of STAINLESS STEEL in the period. Scottish all iron pistols were sometimes made of it,and in Williamsburg we have an actual 18th.C. fireplace setting made from it. Of course,no one knew why any of these ores were stainless,etc..

I'm not going to get into an argument with Wes,because I want to get into fewer. Here are the facts about wrought iron making:

Even in Roman England,wrought iron was made,at Walkley,Kirkstead,and other places. Monks made the metal at Kirkstead. Their small furnaces were bowl shaped. Charcoal was their fuel. They used bellows,or sited the furnaces in naturally windy places to supply the air.

The oxide in the iron was allowed to combine with the carbon in the charcoal to produce CO2,which floated off. The iron sank to the bottom of the furnace,covered with slag,the remains of the clayey and sandy materials from the ore. The slag was scooped off as well as possible. What was left was a "bloom" of spongy,impure iron mixed with slag. The furnace was broken open to get at the bloom,which was gathered up and hammered to remove the slag,thus becoming "wrought".

The refined wrought iron was heated in the presence of charcoal to absorb some carbon for making cutting tools.

Later on,and in the 18th.C.,bars of wrought iron were placed in a big sandstone chest with carbonaceous material. The lid was luted on,and the iron bars were kept hot enough to absorb carbon,making "blister steel". These bars were welded together to make shear steel as I already mentioned above.

IF cast iron was wanted,higher temperatures were used in the furnaces. If heated HOT enough,about 1200 degrees C.,the mass of iron began to rapidly absorb carbon,making CAST IRON.

These are 2 different processes.

Coal was not used,and was thrown away until it was discovered how to drive off the unwanted sulfur,leaving pure carbon,or COKE. Iron was sometimes found with coal.

If wrought iron was wanted from cast iron,it was re melted up to about 1500 degrees C.,where an air blast burned off the carbon,leaving only a small amount of carbon. Again,this remaining iron was impure with slag,and was hammered under a large trip hammer to consolidate it and squeeze out the slag. Some slag still remained,which is valuable in making corrosion resistant wrought iron.

Rick Markham
05-19-2010, 6:55 PM
If wrought iron was wanted from cast iron,it was re melted up to about 1500 degrees C.,where an air blast burned off the carbon,leaving only a small amount of carbon. Again,this remaining iron was impure with slag,and was hammered under a large trip hammer to consolidate it and squeeze out the slag. Some slag still remained,which is valuable in making corrosion resistant wrought iron.

This was the Bessemer process right?

Leigh Betsch
05-19-2010, 7:59 PM
My guess is that the difference in the steel cost is pretty minimal in the amount used compared to the added labor to weld or silver solder a cheap steel to a CPM V3 blade for a simple chisel. It always amazed me when I quoted an injection mold made out of 420 Stavox steel and the customer would come back wanting a cheaper tool steel to reduce the cost. Most cases using a cheaper tool steel would only reduce the overall cost by a few percent at a much higher long term maintenance cost. Of course this was in tooling that would take 500 to 2000 hours of labor to build so the material component was a small part of the overall cost.

George can you buy wrought iron today? I would like to try some for chisel hoops some day instead of machining them from mild steel.

george wilson
05-19-2010, 8:47 PM
The Bessemer process is a 19th.C. invention. It makes steel out of liquid cast iron by blowing air through it,burning off the carbon. An experienced operator could tell by the color of the flames when the right range of carbon content had been reached. This made steel much cheaper and less labor intensive. It enabled the use of cheap steel in making taller buildings,etc.,ships,and other things using large quantities of steel. Earlier on,this process was done on a smaller scale in furnaces. Control was iffy,and nearly witchcraft in earlier days. It all depended upon personal skill and experience,much moreso than later on.

Leigh,I just described where Colonial Williamsburg gets theirs. You might google around and see if anyone is selling reclaimed wrought iron. I used to have a bunch of 1/2" square wrought iron that some guy got to make a railing out of,but never proceeded. I swear, I managed to pull layers apart from it with a pair of pliers!!! I don't need wrought iron THAT weak and impure,so I sold it to someone who can use it for fireplace tongs,or other non critical jobs.

As I said,if the metal is OLD and VERY RUSTED,you can see the wood grain effect in it,and identify wrought iron. If it is new old stock hot rolled metal,but has a lavender color layer on it,rather than a brown color,it is probably wrought iron. It makes FERRIC oxide,rather than the common FERROUS oxide when the surface just starts to oxidize. After the rust really gets going,it is brown,though. The best thing is to look at old decorative railings and look for a wood like grain. If you don't see any grain,beat on the end of a rod of it. If it's wrought,it will start to split into layers. Wrought iron that has been cleaned till it is bright shows faint layering,and little blackish inclusions of silicon. Many old 19th.C. guns were made of wrought iron. I think the first Colt pistol made of carbon mild steel(called "silver steel" by the Brits),was the 1860 Colt Army. Mild steel is silvery looking compared to wrought iron,which has a gray color by comparison,even when it is polished. Remington rolling block large frame rifles continued to be made of wrought iron until a later period.

george wilson
05-19-2010, 9:49 PM
If you enjoyed the treatises on wrought iron,please write thank you on a $20.00 bill and mail it to me.:)

P.S.: Some of my old Scottish iron bound planes look like wrought iron to me.

Joel Goodman
05-19-2010, 10:03 PM
If you enjoyed the treatises on wrought iron,please write thank you on a $20.00 bill and mail it to me.

That is a bargain!

george wilson
05-19-2010, 10:13 PM
Glad you liked it,Joel.

Rick Markham
05-19-2010, 10:17 PM
I'd love to send you a crisp 20 dollar bill George, but I think the turners forum has already spoken for all the money I am ever going to have :eek: I constantly wonder why I do this to myself:rolleyes:

Leigh Betsch
05-19-2010, 11:01 PM
T

You might google around and see if anyone is selling reclaimed wrought iron.

I did just that. Seems a lot of people make stuff out of wrought iron but nobody sells wrought iron... Makes me think what's sold as wrought iron is not actually wrought iron.
But back to the topic, CPM3V chisels. I'm all for them.

James Carmichael
05-20-2010, 12:55 AM
the main reason why knives metallurgy has far outpaced woodworking metallurgy is money. Far more money is made selling knives then in selling chisels. so of course follows more exotic materials are easier to sell.

Bingo!

Agreed that most knife users, other than avid outdoor folks, don't know or care how to sharpen knives.

In a post-grad course about 15-years back, I had to teach a skill and chose knife sharpening with a Lansky sharpener. Out of 20 people in the room (all working adults, no college-agers), none except for one bow-hunter could imagine why anyone would go to the trouble to sharpen something (though the prof claimed to have been a carpenter). Most just bought new cutlery sets and disposed of the dull knives.

Guess that's what keeps the Ginsu and Miracle blades in business.

Bob Strawn
05-20-2010, 8:50 AM
Bingo!

Agreed that most knife users, other than avid outdoor folks, don't know or care how to sharpen knives.

In a post-grad course about 15-years back, I had to teach a skill and chose knife sharpening with a Lansky sharpener. Out of 20 people in the room (all working adults, no college-agers), none except for one bow-hunter could imagine why anyone would go to the trouble to sharpen something (though the prof claimed to have been a carpenter). Most just bought new cutlery sets and disposed of the dull knives.

Guess that's what keeps the Ginsu and Miracle blades in business.

I would not doubt that the prof was indeed a carpenter. When I was a carpenter, chisels were for scraping shoes and opening paint cans. Sharp knives where blades freshly put in the blade holder, and planes were not to be trusted, half the time you pushed them into wood, they lifted the grain and jammed.:rolleyes: Factory sharp was as good as it got.

So being unable to sharpen may even support his claim to having been a carpenter.

Bob

george wilson
05-20-2010, 9:44 AM
One of my carpenter friends has a chisel that is also a coarse wood rasp!! It is the most atrocious abomination I've ever seen!!! About 1/2" of the cutting end was left plain,otherwise,it is a 4" half round rasp. I'm sure you guys have seen these at Lowes,or similar BORGS.

Garth Jones
05-20-2010, 9:56 AM
A little off topic but a cute chemistry fact - I once found a passage in a late 19th century chemistry text that described the element uranium as a 'white powder of no known use.'

george wilson
05-20-2010, 10:08 AM
I looked at my old chemistry books last night. My earliest Fownes is actually 1847,then the 1860's,then the 1903. I should re read the 1847 to re evaluate the state of chemistry at that time. It's been years since I read those books.

I heartily recommend you to get a reprint of "Reamur's Memiors" and read it. You will get an idea of the nearly witchcraft state of metal production in the late 17th.,early 18th.C. I enjoyed that book a lot.

John Payne01
06-02-2010, 6:27 PM
Rick

I'm curious about the knives you use as a professional chef. Did you ever use custom made knives?

John

john brenton
06-03-2010, 12:51 AM
and to this day see absolutely no convenience, no reason, why those two would have been paired like that. It's an extremely coarse flat rasp on one side, and an extremely coarse round on the other. What project would you look at and say....AH! Good thing I've got my combo rasp chisel!

I'd like to throw that and my kobalt hacksaw (what was I thinking???China? wow) in the trash. I don't know why I bought but it is a Nicholson and will NOT hold an edge...at all. I'm thinking about attempting to make a plane makers float out of it...that's the only thing keeping it out of the trash.


One of my carpenter friends has a chisel that is also a coarse wood rasp!! It is the most atrocious abomination I've ever seen!!! About 1/2" of the cutting end was left plain,otherwise,it is a 4" half round rasp. I'm sure you guys have seen these at Lowes,or similar BORGS.

Steve Dallas
06-03-2010, 9:33 AM
Hey guys, I am the guy who has been testing these. I have to say that this steel is just unreal. The edge retention is unlike anything I have ever seen. Comparing these to my Japanese blue steel chisels is like comparing a Home Depot Buck Brothers chisel to blue steel. Just to give you an idea I chopped dovetails in 8 drawers with one 3/8” bench chisel and one ½” fishtail chisel and when I was finished both would still shave. That was with curly hard maple as the primary wood and curly soft maple as the secondary wood. I can’t even imagine how long these will last in poplar or white pine. I make my living in the shop so time spent working instead of sharpening is huge for me.

The sharpening is a little more difficult on these but a cheap set of diamond stones or some diamond grit sand paper makes quick work of it. After the initial sharpening all I have had to do is touch them up ever 150 dovetails or so on a leather stop with some diamond compound on it. I have been using diamond abrasives for a long time so this wasn’t really a change for me. I think John may be planning on sending these out already sharp in the future so that will take care of the initial sharpening.

The guy who made these chisels for me isn’t the first guy to try it but I am pretty sure that he is the first one who is trying to put them into production along with plane blades in custom steels. He is going to be sending me some additional steels to try out and I have sent some of these along to a friend I have at a magazine and I pretty sure they will be just as impressed as I have been. He is also sending some custom plane blades to another woodworker which I think are going to see equal success.

Below is a picture of the set of bench chisels I have and one of the fishtail chisels I have. The guy who is making these is basically going to build the chisel to your specs. I don’t think he has his final pricing complete yet but from what he is telling me his prices should be comparable to L-N and Blue Spruce which is a bargain when you consider what you are getting. I think he is also going to offer a kit which includes just the iron and the ferrule along with mounting instructions for anyone who likes to make their own handles.

Since I don’t think I am allowed to post links here anyone who wants to contact him can feel free to send ma a PM or email and I can give you his information. I think he is starting a waiting list and will be starting production of these soon. I don’t think he was expecting the testing on these to go as well as it has so he is still trying to get some things lined up before he starts production.


to see the scale

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0046.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0047.jpg

Very well balanced

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0054.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0053.jpg

Taper is perfect for dovetails

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0050.jpg

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/DSCN0051.jpg

Full set of dovetail chisels minus the 1/8 and 1/4 which are on the way

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k316/eoddave/Chiselset.jpg

Based on photos three and four above, it appears to me that you drill out the bulk of the waste, so to assert that the dovetails were all chisel work and still sharp after eight drawers seems more than just a little disingenuous. Clearly, when drilling out waste a significant percentage of what would otherwise be cross-grain chopping is mostly eliminated. This cross-grain mallet work is what dulls chisels and makes edges fold over, and you've eliminated most of it. Given your method of work (perfectly valid), I don't doubt one could come very close to replicating your results with a decent quality O1 chisel.

Chris Friesen
06-04-2010, 7:58 PM
Based on photos three and four above, it appears to me that you drill out the bulk of the waste, so to assert that the dovetails were all chisel work and still sharp after eight drawers seems more than just a little disingenuous.

Good eye...I totally missed that! I agree it would be interesting to know how the chisels fare when used by themselves.

Dave Diaman
06-04-2010, 8:20 PM
Actually I cut dovetails on a total of 15 drawers (a total of a little over 200 dovetails) before the chisels stopped shaving. I also did the same exact test using my 3/8” blue steel Japanese chisel just to make sure I was comparing apples to apples and it stayed sharp enough to shave through 4 drawers. Even hogging out some of the waste there is still a whole lot of cross grain chopping that has to be done to clean up the joints. I talked to a few other hand tool workers who have these things in their hands also and they are having very similar results to mine. When I got these I got two sets to test and sent one to a friend I have at one of the WW magazines and they are really going to put it to the test. Based on what we have discussed so far it sounds like the steel is performing extremely well. Hopefully we will see something in one of the upcoming issues about this. I am sure there are going to be two opposing views on these.

John knew when he started making these chisels that they would not be for everyone. The same can be said for Japanese chisels. If you are a purest or are someone who doesn’t see sharpening as a chore then these are not for you. If you are making a living with them or just hate sharpening then these will be the best thing since sliced bread. I don’t know if John has mentioned it here but he is in fact taking orders for these and plane blades now. I believe his prices are right around what you would pay for a Blue Spruce chisel. The last time I talked to him he was having the steel ground and should be grinding chisels soon to fill orders.

Steve Dallas
06-06-2010, 8:42 AM
Actually I cut dovetails on a total of 15 drawers (a total of a little over 200 dovetails) before the chisels stopped shaving. I also did the same exact test using my 3/8” blue steel Japanese chisel just to make sure I was comparing apples to apples and it stayed sharp enough to shave through 4 drawers. Even hogging out some of the waste there is still a whole lot of cross grain chopping that has to be done to clean up the joints. I talked to a few other hand tool workers who have these things in their hands also and they are having very similar results to mine. When I got these I got two sets to test and sent one to a friend I have at one of the WW magazines and they are really going to put it to the test. Based on what we have discussed so far it sounds like the steel is performing extremely well. Hopefully we will see something in one of the upcoming issues about this. I am sure there are going to be two opposing views on these.

John knew when he started making these chisels that they would not be for everyone. The same can be said for Japanese chisels. If you are a purest or are someone who doesn’t see sharpening as a chore then these are not for you. If you are making a living with them or just hate sharpening then these will be the best thing since sliced bread. I don’t know if John has mentioned it here but he is in fact taking orders for these and plane blades now. I believe his prices are right around what you would pay for a Blue Spruce chisel. The last time I talked to him he was having the steel ground and should be grinding chisels soon to fill orders.

You do beautiful work. When you get a little older you might appreciate the break, change of pace, and the chance to regroup and clear the head that sharpening offers.

In the meantime, enjoy your youth.

Dave Diaman
06-06-2010, 11:26 AM
You do beautiful work. When you get a little older you might appreciate the break, change of pace, and the chance to regroup and clear the head that sharpening offers.

In the meantime, enjoy your youth.

Right now I can't afford to take that time. Maybe when I'm a little older and have doubled all my prices I will be able to take a little time to smell the roses. :o

Steve Dallas
06-07-2010, 11:41 AM
Right now I can't afford to take that time. Maybe when I'm a little older and have doubled all my prices I will be able to take a little time to smell the roses. :o

The joint I saw pictured looked to be proportioned in such a way as to make is susceptible to using a jig. You're already using a hybrid power/hand tool approach. You don't have anything to prove - you apparently can cut an all hand-made joint. Hell, if you're that busy just cut them with a Leigh. Let the other shoe drop.