Dust Collection question

[Bob Weisner]

Hi:

I have read on some posts where people are using hose with a diameter larger than 4 inches. My Jet Planer Molder only has a 4 inch dust collector opening. How could it be possible to increase the dust collecting capability if I used a larger diameter hose when the planer only has a 4 inch opening?

Thanks,

Bob

[Jim Becker]

There is some benefit from the "venturi" effect that using a 5" to 4" reducer right at the hood provides on tools like this with fixed port sizes. Obviously, being able to increase the port size is even better, but not possible or difficult with many tools. But when I had my Delta portable planer, I did notice a difference in collection when using the 5" hose with a reducer at the tool as opposed to a 4" hose to a 4" drop. Very noticable.

[Karl Laustrup]

I will be watching this thread closely, as I have just gotten my Onieda Cyclone last week. Waiting on ductwork plans before ordering ductwork. Also, have to build small attachment to garage to house cyclone. Any other helpful hints in setting up cyclone will be greatly appreciated. I currently have TS, BS, RAS, RT, MS and 6"x9" sander. Also planning on lathe in future.
Thanks,
Karl
P.S. Also wondering if moving compressor outside in this same enclosure would work? I figure I might have to keep pet-cock open in winter, but are there any other problems that I am not aware of? Hoping to keep other than power tool noise to a minimum and also for space purposes.

[Karl Laustrup]

After looking at my query, I realized I had forgotten:o two very important pieces of equipment. My thickness planer and jointer.

[Steve Cox]

Karl,

I have both my cyclone (Woodsucker) and my compressor (60g CH) in the same closet inside my shop. I framed it up and then sheathed the entire inside with sound board, floor, walls, ceiling. I stopped the sheathing about 12" from the top and then put another layer of soundboard and plywood 2" outboard of the wall and 24" long to make a baffle for air to get in and out of the closet. This cuts down on the noise considerably. I don't have your freezing problems here in the PNW so I can't comment on the idea of an outside structure. Have you considered how the noise outside might affect your neighbors?

[Jim Becker]

P.S. Also wondering if moving compressor outside in this same enclosure would work? I figure I might have to keep pet-cock open in winter, but are there any other problems that I am not aware of? Hoping to keep other than power tool noise to a minimum and also for space purposes.
This is a good solution, IMHO, if you have the space and putting the two "noise makers" together also makes sense...and I did that in my own shop.

As to conditioning the space, if you insulate the outdoor closet well, you may find that a lightbulb or two may be all you need to keep things above freezing...they put out a surprising amount of light and don't cost much to run.

[Karl Laustrup]

Steve,

Thanks for the ideas. I think I may do the soundboard with insulation, although it will be outside. My shop is 24X30 but our vehicles reside in side when it is not a shop, so space necessitates the unit being outside. I don't have to worry about neighbors. Other than deer and other small critters only neighbor is some 200-300 yards away.:)

Jim,
I've noticed on other threads that you seem to know quite a bit about DC and Onieda in particular. Thank you for your thoughts. I got the 2HP Pro Industrial with remote.:p They said the remote would work through the wall. I hope so. I have enough room between garage windows for a structure of about 4' wide by about 3-4' deep. Height is not relevent until around 20'. The compressor is a stand up model and would fit in the enclosure except under one of the windows. All this would be outside the garage but connected. Access to the DC & compressor would be from outside.
I may pick your brain some more as I start to assemble the unit and run the ductwork. Alas, that may not be for a couple of weeks though.

Thanks again,
Karl

[Steve Cox]

Karl,

Don't forget to think vertically. My closet is about 3' x 4' and both units will not fit in side by side. I had to hang the motor unit from the wall, attach the cone, then move the compressor in behind those units. After that I could place the dust collection bin in place on its own 18" tall platform in order to get it high enough. It's tight in there but it does work.

[Terry Hatfield]

Agree with Jim...as usual. Using a 5" or 6" drop to a tool with a 4" port will increase performance. The air will compress around the 4" resitriction pretty well and overall performance will increase. Changing to a larger port on the tool will work even better. Here is a pic of the 6" hood I made for my planer. It is made from a very inexpensive HVAC register boot.

<IMG SRC="http://www.terryhatfield.com/npb.jpg">

<IMG SRC="http://www.terryhatfield.com/nph.jpg">

Performance was increased significantly over the very pooly designed Ridgid factory hood. The only draw back is that is is very loud. That much air moving through the relatively small outlet slot in the planer head realy makes some serious noise.

Terry

[Ken Leshner]

I have a DC with 4" intake ports. Are you fellows suggesting that I'll get better vacuum by running 5" hose with 5" to 4" reducers at both the tool and the DC?

[Jim Becker]

I have a DC with 4" intake ports. Are you fellows suggesting that I'll get better vacuum by running 5" hose with 5" to 4" reducers at both the tool and the DC?
No. This technique only works when you have the higher air flow that a system with a 5" or 6" inlet provides. If your system is at least a "1.5hp" system, you may be able to increase the inlet size. Don't bother with a smaller system that has less than an 11" impeller...it can't move enough air to service the larger duct and is only designed for direct attachment to a machine with a short hose.

[Bob Weisner]

Jim:

If I read your post right, the Jet DC650 Dust Collector would not be a candidate for increasing the dust hose from 4 inches to 5 inches in diameter because of its lower dust collecting capacity. To go to a larger dust collector , would I have to purchase a dust collector with the 4 bags or would a 2 bag dust collector be able to handle the larger diameter hose?

Thanks,

Bob

[Steve Cox]

Bob,

I had a Jet DC-1200 that was a good candidate for increasing the size of the hose. After I looked at the cost of converting to a filter instead of the bags, having no separator in front of the impeller because it would not fit with the larger hose, etc, I wound up getting a cyclone. If you haven't done so already, go here http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm and do some reading. Lots of really good info there.

[Jim Becker]

If I read your post right, the Jet DC650 Dust Collector would not be a candidate for increasing the dust hose from 4 inches to 5 inches in diameter because of its lower dust collecting capacity.
Correct. The DC650 and similar machines are "one tool at a time" chip collectors.


To go to a larger dust collector, would I have to purchase a dust collector with the 4 bags or would a 2 bag dust collector be able to handle the larger diameter hose?
12" impeller machine is the best bet for a ducted system. The number of filter bags is irrelivant and frankly, I think that the cartridge filter systems are a better value and offer better filtration and easier maintenance.

[George Tokarev]

Here is a pic of the 6" hood I made for my planer. It is made from a very inexpensive HVAC register boot.

Performance was increased significantly over the very pooly designed Ridgid factory hood. The only draw back is that is is very loud. That much air moving through the relatively small outlet slot in the planer head realy makes some serious noise.

Terry
I've never seen that conformation duct, but you've got what I would consider the optimum for a surface planer. My Rockwell/Invicta has a tendency to jam with a center pickup, especially on wide boards. They're all neatly bent, spanning the 4" part of the duct. I went to a duct with a pickup at at ninety degrees, which hauls the long ones without jamming, but lost some pickup capability at the far end when planing narrower stock there. Now I'll have to find someplace besides Menards to get one like that. Looks the best compromise.

[Mike Kelly]

I will be watching this thread closely, as I have just gotten my Onieda Cyclone last week. Waiting on ductwork plans before ordering ductwork. Also, have to build small attachment to garage to house cyclone. Any other helpful hints in setting up cyclone will be greatly appreciated. I currently have TS, BS, RAS, RT, MS and 6"x9" sander. Also planning on lathe in future.
Thanks,
Karl
P.S. Also wondering if moving compressor outside in this same enclosure would work? I figure I might have to keep pet-cock open in winter, but are there any other problems that I am not aware of? Hoping to keep other than power tool noise to a minimum and also for space purposes.

Karl, the radial arm saw, miter saw, and lathe will be your most challenging designs for dust pickup. The rest are fairly mundane because the ports that are usually designed in by the manufacturer work pretty well. Some older 14" bandsaws need some help with a 4" port or two cut in them or attached to under the table. A table saw blade guard can also be a challenge if you don't have an aftermarket item.

You may want to run the exhaust back into the garage with a cartridge filter during the winter up there. That sucker could empty what little heat you may have very quickly. Maybe that is what you ment by "pet-cock"?

Also if you are mounting it outside, mount it high enough where you won't have to make an immediate turn to get to the ceiling height inside. Fewer bends, more suck.

[Jim Becker]

Also if you are mounting it outside, mount it high enough where you won't have to make an immediate turn to get to the ceiling height inside. Fewer bends, more suck.
This is very important advice...you need a straight shot into the cyclone for maximum performance. A few feet of straight pipe insure that you have minimal turbulence as the air enters the cyclone body. The smoother the flow, the better the system will work.

[Jim O'Dell]

This is very important advice...you need a straight shot into the cyclone for maximum performance. A few feet of straight pipe insure that you have minimal turbulence as the air enters the cyclone body. The smoother the flow, the better the system will work.


OK guys, another question, not to hijack your thread, Bob, but hopefully something that will benefit all of us. What about the exhaust pipe?? If I mount my futere cyclone high to run the ducting above the rafters (7'7" ceilings) can I angle the exhaust down to the cartridge filters? I'm kinda thinking of the 2 stacked units unless that's ovekill. I'm planning a closet just outside the main shop (20 X 24) in a separate room that I will use for finishing, and possibly some assembly. But I want to duct the exhaust back into the shop, not the finishing room. Will this work? Thanks! Jim.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, yes you can. You are no longer worried about "turbulence" on the exit side of the blower. Just keep the curves as gentle as possible (use large radius elbows) for your return line.

[Karl Laustrup]

Thanks Mike, Jim B. & Jim O.
I hadn't thought about the main run into the the unit, but now I know that it should be a straight shot with turns; up, down, or otherwise.
Mike, I guess some of the collection devices, at the source of the dust, will have to be custom, is this correct?
Thank goodness I still have time to figure all this out. Still waiting on design work from Onieda and then need to find most reasonable source of ductwork to do the job.
Thanks again,
Karl

[Karl Laustrup]

Got to look at replys before posting. Meant to say without turns etc.
Brain works way too fast for fingers to keep up.
Karl

[Mike Kelly]

OK guys, another question, not to hijack your thread, Bob, but hopefully something that will benefit all of us. What about the exhaust pipe?? If I mount my futere cyclone high to run the ducting above the rafters (7'7" ceilings) can I angle the exhaust down to the cartridge filters? I'm kinda thinking of the 2 stacked units unless that's ovekill. I'm planning a closet just outside the main shop (20 X 24) in a separate room that I will use for finishing, and possibly some assembly. But I want to duct the exhaust back into the shop, not the finishing room. Will this work? Thanks! Jim.

Jim this is what I did. Can you see the input to the cyclone at ceiling height (round tube) and then the exhaust (square tube going to round) feeding the muffler which is in the rafters? The exhaust is angled a few degrees from the inlet (top view) so I could turn the exhaust back into the shop. After the muffler I had a 45 degree bend back into the shop ceiling. I upgraded to the cartridge filter and changed it to 90 degrees. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5750

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks Mike.

But I think I'm going to have to put the duct work above the ceiling joists as well (7'7" ceiling height) But the more I look at your pictures, I think I'm going to have to rearrange things. I won't have enough headroom between the ceiling joists and the rafters where I have it placed now. I'm not going to like what this will do to my plans. A question to those that have cyclones, what is the distance from the bottom of the inlet to the top of the motor? I'm not sure what unit I will go with, but I figure they are at least fairly similar. I'm thinking of the Bill Pentz unit or the Onieda 2hp commercial. Thanks for your help. Hmmm, it's dark here....I wonder If I can get enough light to go measure......Jim.

[Mike Kelly]

Thanks Mike.

But I think I'm going to have to put the duct work above the ceiling joists as well (7'7" ceiling height) But the more I look at your pictures, I think I'm going to have to rearrange things. I won't have enough headroom between the ceiling joists and the rafters where I have it placed now. I'm not going to like what this will do to my plans. A question to those that have cyclones, what is the distance from the bottom of the inlet to the top of the motor? I'm not sure what unit I will go with, but I figure they are at least fairly similar. I'm thinking of the Bill Pentz unit or the Onieda 2hp commercial. Thanks for your help. Hmmm, it's dark here....I wonder If I can get enough light to go measure......Jim.


Jim, the distance from the top of my motor to the bottom of the inlet is 25". But this is for the 1.5 HP Oneida not the 2 HP. I don't have the measurements for the 2 HP, but I suspect they are close. Don't know if you will be able to read the drawings as I scanned them.

[Jim Becker]

Oneida has all the dimensions for their cyclone systems detailed on their web site... http://www.oneida-air.com

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks for the info, Mike. And Jim B., I thought I had looked for it on Oneida's site last night and didn't see. Must have been too dark inside also, because I do see it now. Looks like the 1.5 hp will just barely fit, 2.0 commercial is too tall. Guess I could add a turbine vent in the right spot and stick the motor up in the turbine cavity...Naaa, bad idea. Thanks guys. I'll keep figurin.

Hope you all have a good Thanksgiving Day!!
Jim.

[Jim Becker]

I mounted my 2hp Commercial with the motor between the joists for the upper floor of my shop building...that enabled me to stay with the 55 gallon bin--there was NO WAY I was going to give up that!

If you can't fit the 2hp commercial, go with the 2hp component...it will perform noticably better than the 1.5hp system and doesn't take much more room, if any. External filter, too.

[Jim O'Dell]

I mounted my 2hp Commercial with the motor between the joists for the upper floor of my shop building...that enabled me to stay with the 55 gallon bin--there was NO WAY I was going to give up that!

If you can't fit the 2hp commercial, go with the 2hp component...it will perform noticably better than the 1.5hp system and doesn't take much more room, if any. External filter, too.


I was looking at that one (2hp component) at lunch when I wrote earlier. Doing some further measuring when I got home about an hour ago, tells me I can get it in, but the input duct would be on the ceiling, not on top of the ceiling joists, and that's if I move the DC to the very center of that wall. This would destroy my current plans for that wall, and I would still have to make a run out straight to stay away from the turbulence problems for the input, then go up to get over the joists so I coujld keep the ducting out of the shop. Not sure this is going to work. Wish I wasn't going out of town for T-day tomorrow. I'm going to have to do some serious revamping of my shop plans. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Jim.