Lidded Bowl - exhibit submission - set value?

[Jim Underwood]

This bowl is my second submission for a local gallery exhibition. I know they're going to ask a value on these things for insurance purposes. It's not for sale because my lovely wife set claim to it long ago... But I still have to place a value on it.

Care to help me out?

This was a cherry burl that sat on my shelf for quite some time because I couldn't figure out what to do with it. Bowl? Hollowform? Box?
Part of it had figure and the other didn't. I couldn't figure out how to best use it until I realized I could core it and reverse the core for a lid. Most of the figure in the lid was in the tenon... So I used the tenon cutoff for the inside of the lid, utilizing every bit I could.

lidded bowl
Walnut and Cherry Burl
5-1/8" x 6-1/4"
Lacquer finish

If you could also help me set a value on this layered Hollow Form I'd appreciate that also:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=139852

[Richard Madison]

Nice work Jim. If your wife claimed it, that makes it "priceless".

[Dennis Puskar]

I can see why your wife is claimed this piece, very nice.

Dennis

[Donny Lawson]

It would be hard to put a price on a nice piece like that.
Donny

[Roland Martin]

Very well done Jim. Great figure to that burl and it looks like you certainly figured out how to best use it. I'm no help as far as value, simply haven't been in the vortex long enough. Awesome piece, will show very well.

[John Keeton]

Jim, let me first say that I really like the combination of woods, the obvious attempt to blend them appropriately, and the form of this piece. I think many would not realize all of the different "turnings" that it took to do this. So, I think your time in this piece should be a factor in the value. Sometimes, that is hard to convey.

Aside from a small bowl a lady wanted done, I have never sold a piece. Even with that one simple bowl, I had no idea of price, and basically gave it to her - didn't even cover my time.

I could easily see 8-10 hours in doing this piece and maybe more. I have no idea on the coring, so that may add a lot more time. Plus, you used a very nice piece of burl. Seems like, at the very least, one should be able to recover their labor at $25/hr, so $250-350???!? And, then there is the art factor???? Shot in the dark for me, but there it is.

Others that have some real life experience with this stuff might be able to provide some true guidance, instead of just a wild guess!:D

[Jim Underwood]

John,
You're certainly in the range I was thinking about. I wouldn't take any less than $300 for it, certainly (and my wife says $500). As for the time factor, I have no idea how much time it is in it. Woulda had less but the finish thing is jinxed... I was on the verge of being totally done, but messed up the finish on three separate occasions. :rolleyes: I've also critiqued this thing ever since I finished the "final" finial form late Wednesday night. There are things I'd do differently now, but I think this is the way it's going to be...

And the other piece I linked to (7 layer hollow form), pretty much the same thing. I had 10-15 hours in the other piece, and at even $20/hr that's about $300.

[steven carter]

Jim,

First of all, really nice lidded vessel! The wood combination is great, as is the workmanship. I would set the price for insurance at a level that if something unforseen did happen, the amount would be enough to pay you to make another. I think your wife is in the correct neighborhood, if it were me, I would go with the $500.

Steve

[Bill Bulloch]

Jim, you do nice work and should get rewarded accordingly for it. Here is how I have been pricing my "larger" stuff lately. I established a hourly "shop cost", I add the cost of the Wood used in the product (if it is found wood, I estimite what it would cost if I had bought it), and 20% profit for me. Of course if it is being sold on consignment, which most of my stuff is, then, I add the consignment fee.

To establish the shop cost, I added up everything I had spent on shop materials (Glue, sandpaper, finishing materials) and tool sharpening over the past 90 days and divided it by 300 hours, plus 10% of my Electric Bill, plus tool depreciation. I depreciated my tools over a 10 year period and came up with an hourly depreciation rate (62 cents) based on 25 hours a week use. Then I added the hourly rate I thought I was worth. Using this formular I ended up with a $22.50 an hour shop rate.

I use this formular on everything except small stuff like my Ornamental Birdhouses, which I make mostly form scraps. I sell a lot of them and price them at what I think the market will bare ($5 - $40).

[Richard Coers]

Pricing any turning work can be difficult. It depends on your market most of all. In my area, it will take a long, long time to sell a $500 piece. Items in that price range will not be an impluse buy, and you will need for people in a very narrow demographic to see it on display more than once. That means people of wealth, and wood lovers at the same time. I've found that to be a VERY narrow group. It also means gallery time, and that means half the money will go to the gallery. The final decision to be made, do I want to look at that piece, or do I want $250? Only you can decide.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Jim if you are not selling it and the wife thinks it is worth $500 that is the price I would put on it. That is a beauty for sure. Love the contrasting woods. If it were me $500 would be the number.

[Mike Spanbauer]

That is a difficult call Jim. The challenge w/ pricing it at $500, is that you may miss out on a potential buyer discussion for a "similar" piece. I would be inclined to price it at $350-400, as Burl that beautiful doesn't grow on tree's... often ;)

Many folks underestimate their shop value as they simply assume the hours attributed to the production of the piece - but what about the gathering efforts, shopping for finishing supplies, thinking about how you want to approach the piece / shape the final product, paperwork for the gallery, etc.

my 2 cents.

mike

[Steve Schlumpf]

Jim - anytime you put something out there and ask others to help establish value - you will get a very wide range of suggestions - based on their experience and location. Will the same pricing guidelines hold up for you?

You did not mention if the expo was juried, open to the public or offering prizes. So, very generically, if juried, the expo has a better chance of pulling in clientele that are looking for high-end art pieces. In which case, I would price a little higher than normal - somewhere around the $650 range. If the expo is open to any and all artists - it may not entice the big spenders but will still pull in the general public and you just never know. I would price it at $450 to $500 - depending on whether you would like to sell it or not.

Course, the pricing has to take into consideration whatever commission you have to pay to the gallery - so pad the price a little to compensate.

Another thing to take into consideration is whether the turning would be considered art or high end utilitarian. Just my opinion - but art commands a higher price than something that is great looking yet functional. Your lidded bowl falls into that gray area between the two. It is your decision on how to best represent your turning.

Best of luck with the expo! Hope I didn't step on any toes - just wanted to offer my opinion.

[Chris Stolicky]

Jim, I can't help with the pricing as it is difficult for us to price works (and art) that we create.

I really like the piece and your comment about coring it to make a semi-matching top is a really good idea.

Thanks for sharing.

[Reed Gray]

It is a nice piece, but for the size, I would have trouble getting more than $100 for it. Not that it isn't worth more, but pieces similar to that just don't move for me. At a high end show, maybe a bit more. You just never can tell.

robo hippy

[Wally Dickerman]

Jim, I simply don't believe that pricing your work by figuring an hourly rate is a viable way to set a price. There are too many factors infolved. First, does a slow turner get more for his work than a fast turner? Do you factor in cutting down a tree, sawing and hauling before it's even in the shop? Or was the wood free, delivered to your door. Or did you pay $40 for a pretty piece of Ausie burl. Is the Aussie burl piece worth more to the customer than a cherry burl piece that was given to you?

When a photo is shown of a piece there is no way to tell how good the finish really is. Are there sanding marks? Does it feel good when handled? Is it heavy or is it light? If there is segmenting, are the joints perfect?

Market value is the only way to price an art piece. Is it in a high end gallery or is it shown at a gift shop. I've been selling my work for a long time and I know that galleries in different areas command different prices. When my pieces are in a certain gallery they in competition with the work of other artists in that same gallery. They must be priced accordingly if they are to sell.

I guess that what I'm saying is that when a turner starts selling his work, pricing can be very difficult.

Wally

[Jim Underwood]

Interesting observation Reed...

I the future I want to target the market in between the $5-$100 range, and the $600-$3000 range..
In other words I'm looking at the $250-$500 range.

Is there a market at that price point? I dunno. Around here, I've not sold anything over $40. But of course I haven't sold much in comparison to folks who sell at shows several times a year.

I'm thinking of trying a couple of higher end shows to see what happens. But first I've got to make some more stuff like this....

[Richard Madison]

Reed's assesment would apply to my area also. Might bring as much as $150 here, or not. But note, folks, Jim is asking for a valuation for insurance purposes, not necessarily a sale price. On that basis I would definitely put the piece in the $500 category, and it might well bring that much in the right circumstances.

[Mark Hubl]

Since you are looking for insurance value, go high, if it is lost or stolen then it won't hurt as much. Can't really comment on pricing since I have not sold a piece either.

[David DeCristoforo]

Pricing is tough but it's tough mostly because we tend to be afraid to ask what something is worth for fear of losing a sale because people will think it's too much. What happens is that we end up setting prices too low and, yes, we "make the sale" but we really don't make any money.

So, how to figure out what an object is "worth"? Well, first of all, there is the value of the time and materials plus overhead that you have to calculate in order to "break even. Then there is the profit you have to add on in order to make more than "wages" and cover your materials costs and overhead.

Then there is the added value for the "artistic worth" of the object. This is pretty subjective and you have to "go with your gut". If you have a really spectacular piece of wood and you have made what you feel is an extraordinary object, one that is truly one of a kind, you can ask more for that object. It may sell, it may not. That part is something of a "crap shoot". But the worst thing you can do is to sell yourself short.

I once made a small chess table out of some really amazing East Indian rosewood. I really wanted to keep that table for myself. But a guy saw it and asked how much I wanted for it. "Not for sale" I told him. So he starts offering me more and more money and I keep saying "I really don't want to sell it". It got to be like a tug of war with him upping the ante and me trying to resist. Finally the number got to the point where it would have been stupid for me not to sell him the table so I did. After all, I had a family to support and I figured I could always make another one. I never did make another just like it and even if I had, I could never find wood like that again. I always regretted selling that piece and I often wondered how high he would have gone if I had held out. One thing I can tell you for sure is that I would have never asked as high a price as that guy paid me for that table.

[Jim Underwood]

Wow. Thanks for all the really good input here.

Wally has some really good points. I tend to take longer to turn than the pros, do I get paid better than they do? Hmmmm

I suppose my question was partially to inquire what the market value is...

And of course, like you say, it's hard to determine that unless you have the thing in your hand. Can't really tell if it has a glass like finish, and all the sanding marks are gone, not to mention detect if the thickness is uniform.

In the end, I just put down an arbitrary number... So these pieces will be in the gallery exhibit for the next few months...

[Reed Gray]

Most of my turnings are 'utilitarian'. They don't demand a high price. Bowls beyond $200 just don't sell well as they tend to be large enough only for entertaining large groups or a very big family. I have sold a handful for prices of $300 or more. I had a beautiful Madrone burl piece once that I priced at $300. I thought that was outrageous, but thought what the heck. The day it sold, another turner was in my booth, and he had moved to Long Island. After the customer walked out of my booth, he told me that in any gallery on Long Island, the bowl would have easily gone for $2,000. Given the gallery's commission, and an agents fee, I could have done better, but you just never know. My flat work sells for $300 up to $1,000 or so, but mostly in the $500 range. It would go for double or triple that in other places. It just depends, and sales is a fickle business.

robo hippy