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Jeff Belany
05-13-2010, 2:30 PM
Even though I have been laser engraving for over 12 years, it was almost exclusively in wood because I worked for a lumber Co. Now that I have my own shop I have just done my first couple Cermark on metal. Using Cermark LMM 6000 I have a couple issues and hope you experts out there can help me out.

1 -- the Cermark is discoloring the metal where it is applied. Customer said it looked like 'flash' rust. I hope it will clean up with Scotchbrite or similar. The one I'm doing today is a presentation sword and I really don't want to scratch it. Any ideas? Any way to avoid this?

2 -- With all the steps of cleaning, coating, cleanup, how are you charging for Cermark 'one-off' items? In the same vein, has anyone worked out a per square inch price for doing Cermark? I did a shield shaped piece about 8x10 and it did take quite a bit of Cermark (full area lasered). It was my first piece and didn't really know that best way to charge for something like that. Any thoughts?

3 -- Last, how many are using the tape instead of the liquid? Seems it might avoid some of the issues I'm having. Is the cost worth the convenience?

BTW -- the Cermark image came out great. No problems at all.

The members of the Creek are great! The knowledge base is priceless.

Thanks,

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

Dan Hintz
05-13-2010, 3:04 PM
If you're spraying from the bulk mix, cost is pennies per square inch, so I charge little (if anything) for the actual Cermark solution. Your time to mix/spray/clean up is a much larger piece of the pie, so that's what you should concentrate on charging for.

Some have mentioned shading from leaving Cermark on for extended periods of time (I believe Rodney was one), so limit the amount of time the stuff is on your item... 30-60 minutes should not be a problem. I've never had a problem, but I also tend to work in batches with Cermark over short periods of time (a few hours).

Terry Swift
05-13-2010, 3:19 PM
I've also had issues trying to use the Cermark liquid and brushing it on. It seems and acts like it's too diluted; but I followed the instructions to the letter (actually put just a little less denatured alcohol than required). The Cermark separates so quickly from the alcohol, it's almost unusable after only a minute or so.

I do have a small compressor and air gun, so I could go that route if it is much easier and better. Cermark seems to like the airbrush method better too.

Thomas Baranowski
05-13-2010, 4:02 PM
Brushing of Cermark is almost impossible to get an even coat. I have used both the tape and liquid and find using a airbrush the best. For most of the products it is a 1:1mix for an airbrush and you need to be even and not over coat. I normally try to go thin and apply 5-7 very very thin coats, so that you can still see the chrome reflecting light.

The tape is very useful if you do a lot of Ipods or small chrome pieces as you can cut it to fit rather than mask off areas you don't want liquid getting into.
The biggest concern is making sure the area to be etched is clean!! I use Dawn for the soap/water then wipe off after with denatured alcohol and a clean tack free cloth.

Gary Hair
05-13-2010, 4:21 PM
Jeff,
Cermark will discolor some metals although I haven't seen it too much on the stuff I have been marking - mostly stainless. One tip I got from Ferro was to warm the piece up a bit before you spray and then spray from a bit farther away than you might normally spray. The staining is from the liquid/Cermark mix and when you spray far away onto a warm piece, the liquid evaporates much faster and won't leave a mark. As Dan mentioned, spray, laser and rinse as soon as possible.

I charge based on the time it takes to complete the project. Unpacking, cleaning, applying Cermark, fixturing, lasering, cleanup and repackaging. From the time I touch a piece until I'm shipping it, I am charging the customer. Some people may say that's not possible, but I say you must... For a ballpark price for the lasering, you really need to know the speed/power settings for your laser for each type of material. I know that thin stainless runs about $0.51/square inch for me, but that is exclusive of all of the other factors I mentioned.

I haven't used the tape, they don't recommend it on anything less than 45 watts, I have 30. It seems to me that it would be convenient, but convenience usually has a higher cost. I have made spray masks for large pieces just to save on Cermark, but as Dan said, the Cermark itself isn't really the big part of the cost, it's my time. That said, it's amazing how much Cermark I wash away compared to how much is actually lasered. I probably only laser 10% of what gets sprayed. If I could find an economical way to capture the wash-off, I would be able to use 10% of the Cermark I use now.

Gary

Gary Hair
05-13-2010, 4:25 PM
I've also had issues trying to use the Cermark liquid and brushing it on. It seems and acts like it's too diluted; but I followed the instructions to the letter (actually put just a little less denatured alcohol than required). The Cermark separates so quickly from the alcohol, it's almost unusable after only a minute or so.

I do have a small compressor and air gun, so I could go that route if it is much easier and better. Cermark seems to like the airbrush method better too.

Terry,
Use the airbrush with Cermark thinned 1:1 or even 1.5:1 (DNA to Cermark) and you'll see a world of difference. You are right about it being difficult to brush, I think it's impossible to do it right with a brush.

Gary

Thomas Baranowski
05-13-2010, 5:23 PM
I've had staining on bare metals almost instantly, doing chrome and stainless I always set up my focus and placement guide then clean and treat with Cermark. I also preheat, spray then put back in the oven to keep the metal above room temperature since the venting will cool the metal and Cermark results need heat. I never leave the Cermark on a piece any longer than I need to etch it.

I have mostly done chrome for Harleys ( watch out for cheap after market chrome) and heat is needed for a solid bond.

Dan Hintz
05-13-2010, 6:20 PM
I thin mine down about 10:1 (yes, that's a ten) and use the cheapest airbrush Harbor Freight sells. No preheating, just spray, prop up to dry for a few minutes, and laser.

Richard Rumancik
05-13-2010, 7:06 PM
. . . as Dan said, the Cermark itself isn't really the big part of the cost, it's my time. That said, it's amazing how much Cermark I wash away compared to how much is actually lasered. I probably only laser 10% of what gets sprayed. If I could find an economical way to capture the wash-off, I would be able to use 10% of the Cermark I use now.

Of course, recovery of the Cermark would increase the time it takes to do the job - so then you'd have to charge more for the product . . .

Seriously, I once tried to dissolve Cermark flakes from my mask but it probably isn't worth the trouble - it won't dissolve easily and if you get a particle in your air brush then it will plug up. Result: more time spent on the project.

Gary Hair
05-13-2010, 9:00 PM
Of course, recovery of the Cermark would increase the time it takes to do the job - so then you'd have to charge more for the product . . .

Seriously, I once tried to dissolve Cermark flakes from my mask but it probably isn't worth the trouble - it won't dissolve easily and if you get a particle in your air brush then it will plug up. Result: more time spent on the project.


If I could find an economical way to capture the wash-off

"economical" is the key term here, and you are right, it's not really worth it.

Gary

Bill Cunningham
05-13-2010, 10:44 PM
I have some in the spray can.. When I first used it, I sprayed inside a acrylic box, and when done held the can upside down and cleared the nozzle into a shotglass.. After doing this 3 or 4 times, I had a bunch of it solidified in the bottom of the shotglass, and a bunch more stuck to the plexi.. Scraped what I could off the plexi (use a grounding wire or the static electricity will be a real pain) and added that to the shot glass.. Poured in some plain Methyl Hydrate let it soak and soften, and transferred it to a sealed jar where I could add more alcohol and shake the heck out of it.. Got about 4 oz of Cermark mix and works well with either a artist paint brush, or the air brush. The can itself is still sitting almost full in the cupboard, and this 'scrap' leftover Cermark has done over a thousand dollars worth of jobs for me sofar and there is still plenty left.. It goes a long way and I certainly found it pays to salvage the stuff..

Andrea Weissenseel
05-14-2010, 5:53 AM
I handle it like Bill - I have the spray can and when I apply it, I do it on a acrylic sheet, scape it off when dry and put it back in a separate jar for use with airbrush. 90% of my usage of Thermark is for names on cutlery, so I cut a mask of acrylic sheet and apply it throught the mask, that way I have minimal waste.

The tape I use rather seldomly, only if it's just a small, single piece I need to do - than it's alot faster than the spray / clean process

I only had discoloring once, when I tried it out on a tin plate

Andrea

Carl Sewell
05-14-2010, 7:26 AM
I think mine down about 10:1 .

Dan, I really, really, honestly believe that.

:)

Anthony Scira
05-14-2010, 9:39 AM
My work around is just to coat the whole piece or side I mark. That way if it does discolor no one will ever see it. When it discolors it does not look bad, it just looks off when you can see the contrasting area.

Rodne Gold
05-14-2010, 9:57 AM
Its easy to recover economically , first brush off the residue into a container - use a toothbrush , then just dribble water over the rest into a bowl (keep it and evaporate the water) and then give it good wash in the sink.
I also spray in a perspex booth and scrape the sides every now and then.
You cannot remove the stains cermark leaves - its hit and miss cos some items it stains on , others it doesnt. Its not always viable to coat and laser in succesion , sometimes you have to coat large batches and then laser em - the staining is way more prevalent if you apply thickly like with a brush and a foam pad rather than airbrushing.
If doing big quanity orders you are going to have an issue with pricing as you have to be competitive with YAG lasering which is much quicker and requires no coating..the prep work on my side is cheap cos I use unskilled staff for it , they get paid a lot less than I pay myself.
What has happened to us a few times is that we quote , run samples on items the customer gives us and then find the run doesnt work well at all cos the sample supplied is not the same as the bulk order items in terms of metalurgy etc.

Jeff Belany
05-14-2010, 10:10 AM
Thanks for all your input. Maybe I left it too long to dry --30-60 minutes. For some reason I thought it was supposed to be real dry before lasering. The metal discoloration is the biggest issue when it is a presentation item. That's why I thought the tape might work better. I have bought an airbrush but didn't take the time to set it up when this rush job showed up yesterday. Hopefully some experience will improve things.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

Brian Robison
05-14-2010, 2:00 PM
The Cermark will dry a lot faster than Thermark but either should be dry in a couple minutes tops. Warm parts help the drying as well as low humidity.
(Not like I had yesterday):(

Darryl Hazen
05-15-2010, 11:34 AM
We use a hair dryer to warm the parts and also to speed up drying of the Cermark instead of letting it air dry for the suggested time.