?s on shop lighting

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi all,

Alright, I think everyone has convinced me to go with the T8 florescent lights. I will probably add some can spots for task lighting above certain tools. I need to recess my florescents into the ceiling because of low ceiling height (I've temporarily scrapped the idea of raising the roof...will wait for a good hail storm or tree limb to fall and let the insurance company help me buy materials). What length units have you used? 4' with 4 lights, or 8' with 2? I was hoping to find some either with metal grates, or open with the ability to make some metal grates for them. Or will the light be too harsh? Do the plastic difusers hold up ok as long as they don't get hit too hard? Anyone found a cheap source on line, or are the box stores about the best price around when shipping is factored in? Thanks for your ideas. If the LOML will let me out the back door, I'm gonna spend the day cleaning all the junk out of the soon-to-be-shop, and get started. Jim.

[Bob Reeve]

I bought all of my fixtures from HD. They accept either T8 0r T12 and came with the plastic cover. They were 4' x 2 bulbs. I have 7 of them and I couldn't be happier. I used T8

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim....I bought surface mount fixtures....4' T-8s ....4 bulbs per fixture with a solid state ballast. There's an interesting article I purchased and downloaded from FWW that deals with shop lighting. I purchased my fixtures from the Depot. What was interesting.....you could buy a 2 bulb 4' bulb T-8 surface mounted fixture (fixture length 4') for $39...IIRC and a 4-4' bulb T-8 surface mounted fixture (fixture length 8')for $42......ie....buying the 4-4' bulb fixture reduced my lighting costs considerably. Both units used the same solid state ballast. Even with the reduced costs of buying the 4 bulb fixture it cost me over $500 (fixtures and bulbs) to light my shop. Even though they are surface mount, they only hang down about 4" from the ceiling. One thing you should look into before making your decision is the cost and availibilty of bulbs. You might consider getting the FWW article before making the jump into lighting....it gives some really good information and recommendations on designing shop lighting taking into account, ceiling height, work surface height and users age.......

Good luck with your project!

[Steve Cox]

I used T-12s before I knew better and have 10 4' x 2 bulb fixtures in my 500 sq ft shop. I don't have any task lighting and the only place I think I might need it is on the bandsaw and that needs to be ON the bandsaw not a can above it. The biggest thing that made a difference in lighting for me was bulbs. I am using "chroma 50" bulbs which translates to 5000 degrees K color temperature but has various names depending on manufacturer. They are more expensive initially but are cheaper than using incandescents. The light is really bright to my eyes almost twice as bright as "cool white" bulbs.

[Frank Pellow]

Having just experimented with three alternatives, I am going with twin T8s in 4 foot surface mounted fixtures. The fixtures are covered with plastic but I expect to, eventualy, replace this with metal grids that I make myself. There will be 11 fixtures in my 470 square foot shop. No task lighting is currently planned but I might add it later.

I am investing in C-50 bulbs which are expensive but are worth it to me. They have a relatively high CRI (colour rendition index) of 85. By comparison"warm white" is 53, "cool white" is 62, and daylight is 100.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks for the info so quickly!! I should have stated that the shop is about 450 sq ft. (20 X 24 slab). the ceiling is 7' 7". Still don't understand why they built it that way. Sounds like most went with the 4' lights.
Frank, if you did 11 fixtures at 470 sq ft, that should work for me. Do you feel you get good coverage?
Ken, thanks for the FWW info. I'll look into ordering that this evening. Sounds like it will have some good info.

Thanks again! Jim

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the info so quickly!! I should have stated that the shop is about 450 sq ft. (20 X 24 slab). the ceiling is 7' 7". Still don't understand why they built it that way. Sounds like most went with the 4' lights.
Frank, if you did 11 fixtures at 470 sq ft, that should work for me. Do you feel you get good coverage?
Ken, thanks for the FWW info. I'll look into ordering that this evening. Sounds like it will have some good info.

Thanks again! Jim
I think that I am going to get excellent coverage but, since I have not actually installed all the lights yet, this is just a theory. By the way, I also have 3 skylights and 3 incandescent lights. The flourescent lights are on 4 different switches so that I can vary the amount of lighting to suit the circumstances.

Some others that I have talked to think that I have too many lights (). No one thinks I have too few.

[Steve Cox]

Just a follow up to Frank's post. My shop is 20 x 25 with 10' ceilings. I also have a 16' wide garage door with windows across the top and a side door with a window. My coverage is excellent with the ten fixtures I have installed and I don't have a need for extras. I actually worked in the shop for almost two years with 8 fixtures and unpainted drywall and found very little need for auxilary light (I had one over the lathe and one on the bandsaw). I added two to eliminate some shadows in the corners and also painted the ceiling white and the walls beige. Mine are all on one circuit since I much prefer to work in a very bright shop as opposed to one with shadows except where I'm working. The chroma 50 bulbs make a HUGE difference.

[Norman Hitt]

Mine are all on one circuit since I much prefer to work in a very bright shop as opposed to one with shadows except where I'm working. The chroma 50 bulbs make a HUGE difference.


If you Never work at night in the shop, I guess one circuit for all the lights would be OK, but I would be very hesitant to work at night with all the lights on only one circuit. With my luck, and the never ending presence of "Mr Murphy", some unknown thing would surely trip the Light circuit breaker during the middle of a cut, and I don't think I would like being in that situation with the saw still buzzing away and me in the dark pushing wood through it. I guess I just don't feel as Bullit Proof in my old age as I once did. Even just one Incandescent burning would be better than being in the dark.

Cheers, and "Saw Safe"..........Norm

[Randy Meijer]

Hi all,

What length units have you used? 4' with 4 lights, or 8' with 2? .....
Unless you have a very unique set of circumstances.....like a source of free fixtures or bulbs......stay away from 8 footers. Bulbs are hard to find, hard to transport, hard to change, hard to dispose of and more expensive to purchase.

[Jim O'Dell]

Unless you have a very unique set of circumstances.....like a source of free fixtures or bulbs......stay away from 8 footers. Bulbs are hard to find, hard to transport, hard to change, hard to dispose of and more expensive to purchase.

Thanks, I hadn't priced them out. I'm used to doing 8 footers,from previous work places, and I have a Ford E250 extended cargo van, so transport s not a problem. Dumpsters at work make disposal easy. But if an 8 footer is more expensive than 2- 4 footers, then it would be a disadvantage. I'll double check when I go to HD in a bit. I had planned on getting wood and starting to enclose the covered porch on the shop building, but it's raining and the porch is wet on the 3 exposed sides. Maybe I'll buy the supplies and store them so I won't have to waste "working" time to get supplies on a pretty day.
Ko,.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim....two things I did in my new shop you might want to consider.....while you're wiring....wire in a couple of extra outlet boxes into your switched lighting circuits. Later if you need to add additional lights incandescent or fluorescent they can just be plugged into the outlets. I placed all of my lighting on 2 circuits (my shop is 720 sq. ft.). The local code inspector said I could add all the extra boxes I wanted to the lighting circuits. I also placed some extra boxes near the walls so that later if I wanted I could add some strip lights over any non-moveable assembly bench or add lights for "side lighting" a project when finishing. 2ndly, as stated above, don't put all of your lighting on one circuit....if something should fail...short...trip a breaker you are not left with a "running" power tool...in the dark.

Good Luck!

[Steve Cox]

While I can understand the idea of redundant lighting ckts, what is the likelihood? I put all the lights on their own dedicated ckt and hardwired them in just to prevent anything else from affecting that ckt. While we're at it, shouldn't we install a separate panel with a dedicated feed because if something shorts the panel we don't want the lights to go out?:rolleyes: I feel pretty comfortable with my one lighting ckt. It would take something pretty unusual to take down the lights and I do have a light to turn on (garage door) if they go down. I can get away from a TS in the dark and I'm sure not going to be running any more boards through it at that time.:) The TS would be the only tool I can really think of that might be a problem to get away from in the dark. A better solution imho would be to install a knee operated panic switch that you could hit instantly to shut things down. That would take care of the dark problem and also be very useful at all times in the shop. We can't prepare for every eventuality and couldn't afford it if we could. Be reasonable, be safe, and enjoy the shop!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Steve....I'm not trying to get into a heated discussion .....ballasts....electromagnetic and solid state short.....all we are talking about is an extra single circuit breaker.......to each his own.......Jim ...Good luck with your decisions and project!

[Steve Cox]

Ken,

I'm certainly not trying to get into a heated discussion either, just re-read the post and I can see where that might have come across. Sorry. I'm sitting here writing with a little baby on my lap and she and I both had a very long night. I'm not at my best right now:o . There are many differences of opinion regarding how best to set up a shop and how good tools need to be etc. I guess what I was trying to get across is that there seems to be an attitude permeating the hobby side of woodworking (I don't see it as much from professionals) that tools and shops have to achieve a level of perfection that prices many people out of the hobby. I used to think it was a local phenomenon due to the large number of Boeing engineers in the area but it seems to be more widespread than that. Regarding lighting, the standard used to be run some extra boxes, then plug in a few shop lights. Then it became that you needed to have lights on a seperate ckt for safety. Now for safety you need to have more than one seperate ckt. Each upgrade in safety costs a little more, and taken with the same upgrades in dust collection, etc, really drives up the cost of woodworking especially as a hobby. I don't have an answer for all this as I like my new bright lights and I need all the dust collection I can get as I am an asthmatic. It's just something Iwanted to throw out there to think about. Once again, sorry if I offended.

[dale rex]

Ken, what issue of FWW was that article you described? I am interested in reading it because I am having a shop built and will soon be installing my lighting. thanks, Dale

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Steve...no offense taken. I work in hazardous conditions daily...high voltage upto 150 kv dc......cryogens...liquid helium...mechanical...2000lb frames spinning 360 degrees sub-second...I've hung from the mast of US Navy ship by my safety belt after getting shocked while working on a navigational radar. I worked on the floor of my first oil rig at age 15. I've worked on high power electronics since 1969. I'm still alive and have all of my appendages working. I've only been shocked 2-3 times in all those years. Safety is just another part of the job to me. 3 1/2 years ago while on vacation, I broke my back jumping a fence to get away from an attacking dog. Changed my whole life! I'm 8mm shorter than I was because of a stupid instantaneous decision on my part. While I can continue to work and play....I can't do it like I used to....... No offense taken! :)

Dale....the article is titled "Lighting for the Workshop" by Jack L. Lindsey in the Jan/Feb 2002 FWW. He gives some interesting information on planning your lighting by type...by age...over age 40 he recommends twice as much lighting as pre-age 40.....spacing....recommended configurations etc. Well worth the couple of bucks it cost me to download it! Good luck with your new shop! Enjoy the process ....it's fun! :D

[Steve Cox]

Ken,

"There are old ETs and there are bold ETs, but there are no old,bold ETs". That safety poster saying has stuck with me all the way from "A" school. I have been up on a mast when I saw deck, water, deck, water 140' below me and I have hung by my harness to rescue a buddy who didn't realize the footrail stopped before the end of the yardarm. I have seen a guy thrown 15' and another do the 60hz shuffle. I'm still healthy and have all my appendages because I BELIEVE in safety. I've only been shocked twice but my worst accidents have been with a kitchen knife. I understand.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

ET1.......got out in 1976! You understand, brother!

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks for all the ideas guys. I went to HD and Lowes to get wood to frame the covered porch, and looking at lights, they have a 4 bulb, 4' flush mount light that should work. Comes 2 ways, with and without bulbs. The difference works out to 1.50 per bulb, but I'm guessing that they are not the brightest ones available. Separately they have 2 styles of T-8 bulbs...cool white, and neutral white. I have never heard of neutral white before. Case of cools are 49.75 (25 bulbs), case ot neutrals are 59.75 (25 bulbs). Does anyone know if the neutrals are brighter/better? I know the cool whites are a softer light than the day light ones in T-12's, but they didn't offer daylight in the T-8. Thanks again for your continued help. Jim.

[Steve Cox]

If HD doesn't offer chroma 50s call around to find someone who does. Trust me, you will appreciate the difference! The cost is probably closer to $4.50 per bulb. Pay it! I started out with warm whites, have worked in shops with cool whites and really believe in the difference between the bulbs. Daylight is not what you need, get 5000 K bulbs.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

JIm......I bought my light fixtures from the Depot. One thing you might look at if....if you can use 8' fixtures......The 4' surface mount fixtures I was looking at were ~$39. They took 2 4'- T-8 bulbs. They also had a 4 bulb (used 4' bulbs) 8' T-8 surface mount fixture for ~$42. Both used the same solid state ballast. My new shop is 30'x24'. 9 8' T-8 fixtures will provide the major lighting for it. The 8' fixtures were only $3 more per fixture and used twice the number of bulbs. I'm with Steve on the bulbs....get the brightest you can! Also check out buying them by the case. I bought 2 cases and it wasn't a lot more expensive than buying half as many individually.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks Steve and Ken. I've got a customer that has a lighting supply company-commercial and retail. I'll see if he has the Chroma 50's. Ken, I might try to fine the FWW at the local Library. I'm a believer that the needed amount of light after 40 doubles. Sounds like a very good article. Thanks for the good suggestions. Jim.

[Norman Hitt]

Hey Steve, I wasn't trying to Jump your Case either, just wanted to throw out the idea, as something to think about. I musthave more than one light ckt in my shop, mainly because of our electricity costs here, but I have also been caught twice in the past, working in places where all the lights went out, (fortunately not on pwr tools at the time). It does cost $$$, (and at the time, more than I have) to make the ideal setup. If they weren't so expensive, I would really like to have one of the emgcy lights like we had in our operations rooms in the Air Force. They were a commercial unit, but basically a 12 V car battery in a stainless steel box with a built in trickle charger. They were hooked into the light ckt. and were off and charging all the time Unless the power went off, and then the charging circuit immediately switched to the lighting circuit and the light came on. The changeover was immediate, and they worked really well. Oh well, we can't have everything I guess, but we can wish.

After seeing your second post about the long nights with the Baby, I can sure understand why you need a Bright Shop,......so you can see through those drooping eyelids, (Been there, Done that). Ha!

Cheers.........Norm

[Frank Pellow]

...
The chroma 50 bulbs make a HUGE difference.\
Steve, do you know is Chroma 50 is the same thing as C-50? If so, I agree that the light from them seems to be a LOT better.

[Steve Cox]

I think my bulbs say "f40c50" on them so I would say probably so. I have seen them listed under different trade names depending on who makes them. The common factor is a color temperature of 5000 degrees Kelvin which probably leads to the designation of c50. I am kind of guessing but it makes sense and agrees with what I have observed.

[Jim O'Dell]

I just did a quick google search on T-8 chroma 50. The one listing I got to kinda look at before my computer took a nose dive and had to be rebooted said these ran $5.95 each. Is that the price you have seen? If so, I'll have to wait a while for them. The $2.50 to $3.00 range is more where I need to be for this many bulbs. Maybe I could do every other fixture with them for a while. Jim.

[Steve Cox]

I was just doing a google after your last post and I'm finding them for $1.79 to $3.49 depending on just exactly what you need. I know what I need for my lamps but I don't claim to know much about t8 fixtures. The key to this is not "chroma 50" it is 5000 degrees Kelvin. Any lamp with that color temperature should give you the light I have in my shop.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I went with the 8 foot, 4 bulb T8's from HD. I ended up buying 7 fixtures and purchasing the bulbs from a local electrical supply house since HD doesn't have a good variety of T8 bulbs. I'm pretty happy with my solution and I don't really require any task lighting. The only downside was that it was a bit expensive as the fixtures and bulbs ran about $350. My shop is 16x26 and plenty bright!

http://home.insightbb.com/~apmonte/Graphics/WoodShop_26.jpg