Hock Garnet shellac flakes [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

David Rose

11-20-2004, 1:33 AM

I may have to print a retraction for those who I've questioned about their "dissolving problems" with shellac. All my shellac use has been with LV's super blonde stuff. I've used about three pounds of it. It really has dissolved in 30 plus minutes of shaking. Tonight I have spent over four hours trying to get Hock's Garnet flakes to even try to dissolve. I shook the daylights out of it for about 30 minutes (of TV), heated it almost to water's boiling point, shook it for another hour, then watched it settle out. Ugh!

Is it really harder to get shellac to dissolve or am I just spoiled by the Lee Valley stuff? Maybe the garnet is slower than the super blonde? I'm about to order some garnet from Lee Valley. This is rediculous!

David

Dennis Peacock

11-20-2004, 1:38 AM

David Ol' Buddy,

I ordered various shellac flakes from Jeff Jewitt and I even ordered their top of the line Behkol for disolving the flakes....all instructions say to pour in the alcohol, add the flakes and shake. Wait an hour and shake again and repeat the process. It takes all my shellac flakes about 24 hours before it is ready for use...no matter what or who's alcohol I use.

Now...you can get it to dissolve faster if you grind up the flakes to small granules, but that's about it. Patience Prudence and they will dissolve and be ready for use. I have never had shellac in flake form that dissolved in less than 12 hours. :rolleyes: :D

BTW, shellac is about all I use any more for clear or light colored topcoats. :D

David Rose

11-20-2004, 2:00 AM

Yeah, Dennis, your statement and others like it are why I wonder if I'm just spoiled. No Joke, the Lee Valley Super Blonde will dissolve in 30 minutes with fairly continual shaking. That's the limit of my experience, but it has worked with 3 different batches of that stuff.

Oh, and I used "any ole body's" denatured alcohol. Tonight I reverted to some of the best.

I will search for Pruence and Patence. If they appear at my home, I will let you know. They will have to sleep on the sofa though.

David, who loves shellac

David Ol' Buddy,

I ordered various shellac flakes from Jeff Jewitt and I even ordered their top of the line Behkol for disolving the flakes....all instructions say to pour in the alcohol, add the flakes and shake. Wait an hour and shake again and repeat the process. It takes all my shellac flakes about 24 hours before it is ready for use...no matter what or who's alcohol I use.

Now...you can get it to dissolve faster if you grind up the flakes to small granules, but that's about it. Patience Prudence and they will dissolve and be ready for use. I have never had shellac in flake form that dissolved in less than 12 hours. :rolleyes: :D

BTW, shellac is about all I use any more for clear or light colored topcoats. :D

Dave Anderson NH

11-20-2004, 7:54 AM

Hi David- The first question that comes to mind is what cut are you making. I've used Hock Garnet for about 2-3 years and a 3 lb cut takes about a day and a half to disolve. I don't shake much, maybe once or twice a day, but I plan ahead and mix up a batch well before I need it. Grinding into almost a powder does speed things up, but heavier cuts do take longer no matter what you do. I too use run of the Borg alcohol. The only thing Bekhol really offers is a slightly slower drying due to the retarder they put into the mix. I can't really justify the added expense and my professional refinisher/restorer friend Bruce Hamilton only uses regular alcohol from the nearest and cheapest source.

Carole Valentine

11-20-2004, 8:18 AM

I use Hock Garnett, but I mix it a day or so ahead (2 lb cut) with regular denatured and have not had any problem with it so far, but then I have had no need to hurry it. I have not tried LV, but it looks like the Hock flakes are "thicker" than other brands I have seen.

Ray Thompson

11-20-2004, 10:48 AM

Do a search on Ebay for a magnetic stirrer. Fill the beaker half full with flakes then fill with alcohol. Drop in the magnet and about 4-5 hours later --- a 2lb cut ready to use.

Ray

Jim Becker

11-20-2004, 2:10 PM

David...get a cheap coffee mill; one of the blade-type is just fine. Use it to grind up the flakes before you try and disolve them. Even then, it can sometimes take a day or so for a really good disolve, but you will minimize the block of glop by breaking things up first.

Carl Eyman

11-20-2004, 2:17 PM

I have a Waring Blender ($10 at a yard sale) dedicated to the purpose. It still takes time though. I count on miking this afternoon what I;ll use tomorrow. The dishwasher does a good job of cleaning the blender.

Jerry Olexa

11-20-2004, 7:23 PM

David I recently bought a Lb of Garnett At my local Woodcraft (supplies were short on Garnet a few months ago). Needed to mix about 1/2 the package and after crushing some of the flakes and mixing to 2lb cut w the better alcohol, it took 2-3 days w/ mixing before I could consider using. Maybe I should try Lee Valley...

David Rose

11-20-2004, 10:51 PM

Everyone, I'm not really in a rush to get the stuff mixed. I just wondered if it was *going* to dissolve because of past experience. I am use to using a volume of flakes instead of weighing them, so grinding will be less convenient. And normally waiting is not a problem. Ground flakes would be a little heavier and I've just not needed to do it with the Super Blonde stuff. With it, 2oz volume weighed about an ounce, so 2oz of flakes topped up to around 5oz with alcohol was around a 1+ pound cut. That is about what I did with the garnet flakes. They are still not very dissolved. They may have been old when I got them a couple of years ago. They've been stored in the house, so my part should not have caused a problem. I'll keep waiting for Patience and Prudence to come by and tell me when they are "done". :)

Btw, I've got a coffee grinder that I use for fly tying dubbing mixing, so I may try that at some time. I doubt that bug spit would be bad for the body of a fly. ;) Hey! That might even start a new process! "David's flies with real bug parts!" :D

Thanks

David

Jim Becker

11-20-2004, 10:54 PM

David, "flakes" don't go bad...only disolved shellac has a shelf life.

David Rose

11-20-2004, 11:01 PM

Jim, I've heard that they can/will go bad after some years or conditions. It is just a lot longer than for mixed shellac, if the writer(s) knew what he was talking about. I've not had it happen so...

David

David, "flakes" don't go bad...only disolved shellac has a shelf life.

David Rose

11-21-2004, 8:24 PM

Hour 48 has about 75% or so dissolved. There is no "glob" just a thick layer of flakes in the bottom. Two things I haven't tried yet. One weighing the volume of this shellac to find the actual cut. Like I said, it should have been fairly light from previous experience with blonde. I haven't yet "pulled" any of the mix to see about drying/setting up.

I mixed a little of this a few months ago to a heavy (6#?) cut and it also never dissolved. I thought it was because of the heavy cut. Now I wonder.

I'm about ready to just strain it and try some on a sample piece.

David

Jerry Olexa

11-21-2004, 10:25 PM

Patience, my friend, I had those same understandable feelings a week ago. But the shellac is now on and i'm rubbing it out. Nice look! It was worth the wait...

David Rose

11-21-2004, 11:32 PM

Jerry, I love shellac. All I've used has been super blonde though and from one source. It just seems to act very differently than this garnet. All the "real" furniture that I've done has been shellaced. That is not counting a few pieces like a glue cabinet and router table some book shelves and such which got wiping varnish. I'm a padded on shellac man all the way in any place where it is appropriate.

I put a few drops of the garnet on the jar lid and it set up as normal. I wiped some on some samples and it went on as normal. Maybe the garnet just will not fully dissolve. It still hasn't as of tonight. Wiping it on crudely with a paper towel, it seems/feels to be around a 2+# cut. I think I will try another brand next time. Though I suspect that the garnet is just a less refined level of shellac that may never fully dissolve.

David

Patience, my friend, I had those same understandable feelings a week ago. But the shellac is now on and i'm rubbing it out. Nice look! It was worth the wait...

George Tokarev

11-22-2004, 8:17 AM

Horns of a dilemma. Crushing/powdering gives more surface area in contact with the solvent, but it also allows closer packing and, ultimately, exclusion of solvent. IF you are going to be able to shake it at the outset and periodically as you surf the web, make a new turning, or whatever your favorite second task, then grind 'er up. If you're going to shake and swirl and go play with the dog for an hour, don't make powder, lest you get a nearly insoluble lump.

Second thought. Amber is not normally dewaxed. If you're doing dewaxed, the wax will also limit solvent access to the flakes as it precipitates. More shake needed. First time I worked it, I was concerned about decanting a clean mixture, and was astonished to find flakes in the sludge.

David Rose

11-22-2004, 3:31 PM

George all the shellac that I've used, both Super Blonde and this Garnet, has been dewaxed.

This is kind of interesting in the way it is acting. The blonde stuff would lump in the bottom of the jar if I let it sit. It would keep dissolving but get much slower unless I shook the lump apart vigorously. The garnet is too dark for me to see what is happening, but even after sitting overnight the flakes in the bottom do not stick together when I gently tip the jar.

The stuff seems to work well though except for predicting the cut accurately. With the garnet, color may change with cut.

David

Horns of a dilemma. Crushing/powdering gives more surface area in contact with the solvent, but it also allows closer packing and, ultimately, exclusion of solvent. IF you are going to be able to shake it at the outset and periodically as you surf the web, make a new turning, or whatever your favorite second task, then grind 'er up. If you're going to shake and swirl and go play with the dog for an hour, don't make powder, lest you get a nearly insoluble lump.

Second thought. Amber is not normally dewaxed. If you're doing dewaxed, the wax will also limit solvent access to the flakes as it precipitates. More shake needed. First time I worked it, I was concerned about decanting a clean mixture, and was astonished to find flakes in the sludge.

George Tokarev

11-22-2004, 4:04 PM

The stuff seems to work well though except for predicting the cut accurately. With the garnet, color may change with cut.

DavidSo it dries well enough? More or less leaves out the kind of problems that come with age in shellac, and (so I'm told) in humans, too.

You didn't by chance leave that alcohol open to the air for a long time, did you? SWAG - water contamination . Other than that, I'm curious to know if you discover a reason along the way.

Those Hock plane irons are great, aren't they? Made an old Millers's Falls into a real user of a jack at my house.

David Rose

11-22-2004, 11:12 PM

George, the alcohol has been stored in the factory can, but it is about 1/2 full (or half empty). Aw shoot! The can's twice too big. :D And I've had the can for over a year. I don't leave it open long each time, but I'm sure some water vapor is taken in each time. I may mix a little of the known blonde and see what happens.

I put a drop on the jar lid last night. Tonight it took some effort to scrape off. It wasn't brittle yet, but hard enough that it would have resisted casual marring.

My first decent plane was a Stanley Bailey of not too early origin. I first learned to hone the blade... somewhat. It was a nasty tool to try to use. Then I learned to scarey sharpen and fettle. The tool would "work" but did not make me look forward to using it. Then came the Hock blade... I won't say that this plane will operate like a LV and an LN that I've tried, but it does work predictably now. Of course, a more experienced fettler could probably make more of it.

I don't remember which of the finishing book writers said it, but their note was that old flakes would not properly mix. They didn't mention how well they worked for what did mix. I had the feeling they just threw out the batch when it didn't all mix. An old Mix will definitely not harden well once past it's prime.

David

So it dries well enough? More or less leaves out the kind of problems that come with age in shellac, and (so I'm told) in humans, too.

You didn't by chance leave that alcohol open to the air for a long time, did you? SWAG - water contamination . Other than that, I'm curious to know if you discover a reason along the way.

Those Hock plane irons are great, aren't they? Made an old Millers's Falls into a real user of a jack at my house.

George Tokarev

11-23-2004, 11:37 AM

I put a drop on the jar lid last night. Tonight it took some effort to scrape off. It wasn't brittle yet, but hard enough that it would have resisted casual marring.

I don't remember which of the finishing book writers said it, but their note was that old flakes would not properly mix. They didn't mention how well they worked for what did mix. I had the feeling they just threw out the batch when it didn't all mix. An old Mix will definitely not harden well once past it's prime.

David
Yep, don't remember where I saw it, either. Probably someplace like FWW, but I couldn't turn a reference when I was readying a reply yesterday. Do know that esterfication will eventually (<1 year) doom premixed. Thought there was a limitation on the flakes as well, based on the method of extraction.

That drop should have been flake-off hard in 12 hours, IMHO.

David Rose

11-24-2004, 12:30 AM

I shook the soup again one more time tonight, then strained it. I think I strained out more flakes than I put in to start with. Hmmm...

David

Bart Leetch

11-24-2004, 1:01 AM

Hi David

Well I cheated today. I had never used Shellac before & flakes were not available in my local Ace store so I purchased some liquid Bulls Eye Shellac today to use on the inside of the drawers of a dresser my father made. I don't know what he finished the inside of the drawers with but it had a bad smell to it. So I tried shellac & it worked no smell. :D I didn't have to shake it either, just stir a little. Only about $4 a quart.

David Rose

11-24-2004, 1:51 AM

Bart, where is your "old time" spirit? You missed out on all the measuring and shaking and waiting and dissapointment and such. Jeeze! :eek: Don't you know that "cheaters never prosper"?

I've thought about trying the phoney immitation premixed stuff. :o But I've had such good success with the super blonde with just a few minutes of TV time thrown in (for shaking), that I've not done it yet.

Shellac may not be the best for everything, but... *fresh* dewaxed is very water resistant (contrary to some reports), it doesn't leave a smell, it dries very fast, it will apply very easily with little mess or hazzard, it will give you the nicest finish you can get (no spray equipment here so I won't challenge that) with the least work in the least amount of time. Shellac beats everything else for many (most?) things. Uh, don't get me wrong, I'm NOT impartial. :D And of course shellac will cover most more objectionable things as you know. :rolleyes:

Happy finishing!

David

Hi David

Well I cheated today. I had never used Shellac before & flakes were not available in my local Ace store so I purchased some liquid Bulls Eye Shellac today to use on the inside of the drawers of a dresser my father made. I don't know what he finished the inside of the drawers with but it had a bad smell to it. So I tried shellac & it worked no smell. :D I didn't have to shake it either, just stir a little. Only about $4 a quart.

David Rose

11-24-2004, 2:09 AM

Oh, sorry. I left out a couple of more things about shellac. It is perfect for bonding various finishes together that might not be compatible. Shellac is very easy to repair. It will just melt back into the original finish. Nothing seals pine knots or sap in better than shellac. Let's see... I'm sure I've missed a lot of things. Like I said, shellac is a fair to middlin' finish. ;) Oh, and shellac can be made (or bought) into sticks for melting into blemishes in wood almost invisibly.

Until I got these "weird" (I suspect) flakes I would have said you always knew it was fresh 'cause you mixed it.

David

Bart Leetch

11-24-2004, 12:54 PM

"Bart, where is your "old time" spirit?"

David, its just that old & outa time. :D I live in a small town on Whidbey Island with not much choice with 2 lumber yards close by & an Ace store & a new Home Depot being built. No wood workers stores available both Rockler stores are about 90 minutes away the closest Woodcraft is in Seattle 90 minutes away. There isa a Grizzly store in Bellingham :D along with a Western tool & a place called Hardware Sales if HWS doesn't have it probably no one does (meaning just about anything you little heart could desire accept the round button contact-er for a dial indicator DAMHIKT :) ) but all 3 Bellingham stores are approximately 1 hr away. So I was glad to get pre mixed Shellac.

I am making a tool cabinet right now & have coated the inside & outside of the drawers with Deft clear & really don't care for the smell it left & the finish is a little rough this could be because I only sanded to 100 grit figuring they were only tool drawers for wrenches & the like. Would Shellac work ok as a second coat after re-sanding the inside bottom say to 180 grit how about the wear & tear of having tools put in the drawer? I'm not to worried if the sides of the drawer are not real smooth.

Donnie Raines

11-24-2004, 12:59 PM

Oddly enough, I have never waited more then an hour or so my flakes to dissolve...no matter what product I am useing. Great kids, great wife and shellac flakes that dissolve...man life is great! :D

Jerry Olexa

11-24-2004, 1:04 PM

Hi David. I too love Shellac. I'm in middle of padding a cherry project and going well. Curious how you finally ended up. Did the flakes dissolve and where you able to use? My last batch of Garnet seemed to take a longer time than usual. I also did a lot of shaking and stirring w a long screwdiver, In the end tho, it did dissolve and its now beautifying this project! Let us know how you did. There's a terrific website by Steve Mickley that covers the nuances of Shellac. You probably know about it...Let me know if not and I'll get for you.

David Rose

11-26-2004, 9:03 PM

Jerry, thanks for the email. The last post of yours did not send a note to my email. Lately, we've been busy at work and I've had little time for woodworking or checking posts. :(

Mine have not yet dissolved. The job is no rush, so I think I will try another batch of flakes before applying it to my hard earned work. With "color" in the shellac, I don't see another way to mix somewhat consistent batches other than by "cut". And even though there is obviously shellac in what dissolved, I have no idea how much. I think that will likely effect the evenness of the color.

I don't think I've seen Steve Mickley's site. If you happen to notice it, send the link on! If I already have it and forgot I'm sure it will benefit someone else.

David

Hi David. I too love Shellac. I'm in middle of padding a cherry project and going well. Curious how you finally ended up. Did the flakes dissolve and where you able to use? My last batch of Garnet seemed to take a longer time than usual. I also did a lot of shaking and stirring w a long screwdiver, In the end tho, it did dissolve and its now beautifying this project! Let us know how you did. There's a terrific website by Steve Mickley that covers the nuances of Shellac. You probably know about it...Let me know if not and I'll get for you.