What are your thought on SS technology

[Brian Ashton]

This is not about fingers or politics - it's about the technology and longevity of the saw. So don't bother to mention that your fingers are worth... or that you don't like what's his name because...

I had a look at a SS up close and one thing came to mind for me. In recent decades there seems to be a trend towards things becoming redundant relatively quickly. E.g. Digital cameras... remember your first camera whether it was bought in the 40s it was still working in the 90s... Now you'd be lucky if a digital camera would survive 8 years - especially when USB dies out... Won't even talk about computers...

How about the SS? Those small innocent looking connectors crucial to the whole system. Many of the ones I saw on the SS were of a very old design, DB9 connectors for example. And those connectors are only the tip of the iceberg. So when SS decides to upgrade there technology what happens to all the older saws that have the original or "early" design(s). SS it's self has gone down a slippery slope in that they have to keep up with technology or possibly face legal action because they're saw don't perform as "good" as they're expected to. So SS will be forced to upgrade they systems... Of course SS will keep making parts for the older saws - but for how long. Not long if they adhere to the usual business standards - even by companies that maintain much higher than normal standards. Or will they "force" you to upgrade the electronics for who know how much... I'm suspicious of what SS is doing not in a political way but in a technology way. In that today's business attitude is nothing last more than 10 years, not because they wear out but because they become "redundant".

The last saw I owned was a Wadkin Bursgreen built in the late 70s or early 80s. There was nothing exotic about it that couldn't be replaced with a readily available after market part when something failed (remember, it's not an if, it's a when it fails).

One of the most influential woodworkers I've ever met in person worked on a multi machine made in the early 20s. It had oil cups to lubricate the bearings! But there was nothing on that machine that couldn't easily be fixed or replaced by pretty much anyone - such as the new motor and switch on it.

I worked at one shop that had a delta saw made in the early 50s - still had the original motor just an up to code switch - worked perfectly. The shop had a jointer that was made in the 40s that had been completely rebuilt - none of the parts were hard to find.

What's the chances a SS will be able to compare to that. One thing that is 100% assured- all the parts in those saws will fail regardless of how they're treated. What's going to be the fate of many of those saws in 15 years, 20, 30. Personally I'd be surprised if any SS will reach a 20th birthday in "original condition" or where the safety mechanism is even functional. Or will all the electronics have been "bypassed" because the parts are no longer available or too expensive.

[Brendan Plavis]

Not to be rude, but I thought that SS threads were taboo as of recent.

Its not my place to call it, but just be aware that the mods might shut this thread down.

-Brendan

[johnny means]

Do you mean obsolete? Reduntancy in a Sawstop would be a good thing. I own an ICS and bought it believing that it would be supported for at least the rest of my career, barring Sawstop going out of business. You could say my view is optimistic, but I see no reason to believe that "planned obsolescence" would be seen by Sawstop as a good move. Generally, tools and machines don't evolve as fast as computers or cell phones. Also, as more of these machines are sold, Sawstop will see greater revenues from replacement brakes. Also, unlike cell phones and computers, table saws aren't upgraded because it's fashionable. If they stopped producing my brake in favor of SS 3.0 I wouldn't rush out and get the newest version, I'd just bypass my brake technology and never pay the premium for they're products again. I'm guessing that's what most SS owners would do.

Also, why would they shoot themselves in the foot by not keeping all they're brakes available. Every saw they sell could potentially pull in another couple of hundred bucks in sales, why not collect on that?

[Brian Kent]

I appreciate the new thoughts about technology change rates. I had never thought about the electronic update issues before. The general impression of owners is that it is quite a solid, well built machine. And Brendon is right.

[John McClanahan]

Its funny how hi tech is short lived! Just imagine, some day you will just toss out your table saw and buy a new one equipped with the latest technology, like you do with you microwave or DVD player.

John

[Victor Robinson]

Brendan - only SS threads dealing with the lawsuit are taboo. If folks can carry on a discussion without delving into that particular topic, SS threads are dandy.

Brian wants to discuss the technical longevity of the SS design and what it means for future support of SS products. It's a very valid question.

IMHO, the DB9 connector is good enough because while it may be a "rudimentary" connector in the grand scheme of things electrical, the signals being monitored and transmitted in the SS are very rudimentary themselves. There is no need for anything more advanced, unless you start incorporating more sensors and diagnostics and so on and so forth. It's not yet clear to me what additional things a SS could be able to "electronically" do that would make it any safer/better. It would just be more gizmos to layer on top. Maybe that's my naivete.

At this point I don't see any reason to predict future lawsuits about SS not performing "as good as it should" due to a failure to keep up with technology. Digital cameras become outdated as quickly as they do because the file standards and other devices (computers) they have to interface with keep changing. Your digital camera, if treated right, will continue to operate just fine and do what it's always done. It becomes outdated and useless when everything around it changes, including its competition.

A tablesaw is basically a closed system. Long as the saw keeps doing what it's meant to do, it's not outdated, with the exception of competitors doing something better. And progress in the mechanical fields is far, far slower than in electronics. Sure, there may be a future where all of our woodworking tools contain fancy digital electronics and all of them are on some kind of shop network with continuously changing communication protocols, but that's not going to be anytime soon. I hope.

As a buyer of a SS, I thought a lot about how long I expected SS will be able to support my saw. A lot of that is unknown at this point, but I don't think tablesaws are going to become as rapidly upgradeable as other electronics. Sure, the SS has a lot more electronics than your average tablesaw, but it's still not nearly complicated enough to evolve as rapidly as computers/digital cameras/etc.

[Chris Padilla]

Not to be rude, but I thought that SS threads were taboo as of recent.

Its not my place to call it, but just be aware that the mods might shut this thread down.

-Brendan

Brendan,

Victor has it but let me emphasize it: only a certain specific topic regarding SS is currently not allowed. See my stuck post near the top of the forum; it should be crystal clear, I hope. :)

Thanks,

Chris

[Prashun Patel]

I thought about this just b4 buying my Sawstop PCS a couple weeks ago. If the technology obsolesces, at the very LEAST, you end up with a great saw with great dust collection.

I think it's just a matter of time (IMHO, less than 10 years) until every saw has a 'brake', and the prices come way down. In that case, I guess all of our saws will be obsolete.

I also gotta believe there's some funky technology out there from the army that can make a saw-proof glove. That really seems the most elegant solution.

[Kevin Groenke]

Hey Brendan, let's leave the moderating to the moderators eh? Brian clearly states that his post isn't about "fingers or politics". His post is well within SMC's TOS (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/terms.php).


Brian,
We have 2 of the first 50 SSs that were shipped and more than 5 years later we're still impressed by the technology.

IMO, it's a simple, elegant and effective solution: a low voltage charge and an electronic system monitoring that charge. If the charge drops off, an electrical surge fries a wire and a compressed spring throws a pawl into the spinning blade. The resulting centrifugal force disengages the elevation mechanism and the blade drops below the table. It's simple----just like sticking your foot between a bicycle tire and the fork... it makes the spinning stop.

Though not foolproof or maintenance-free, our 2 machines have proven quite robust in an educational shop with hundreds of hard users. We've had over 25 stops between the 2 saws and there is no indication that the STOPPING has caused any undue wear and tear. The 3 year old Unisaws that the SSs replaced each had more significant issues relating to design and quality control than our 5 yr old SSs have had. SS has provided us upgraded parts free-of-charge as they've been developed. The entire "brain" is contained within the brake cartridge, so replacing the brake gives you the most recent "firmware".

SS parts are quite reasonably priced ESPECIALLY when compared to Delta. The control box for example is ~$120, the elevation locking woodruff key is $.25. A replacement 5hp,1ph motor is ~$250. The swinging door on the DC shroud is $12. We've bought the less expensive of those parts, but the expensive ones (motor, control box) were replaced under warranty.

Yes, technological obsolescence could be an issue down the road, but the mechanism isn't really THAT technically advanced. Sure generational improvements are likely, but I suspect the SS will support it's loyal early adopters.

Your guess is as good as anybody's re: what will happen in 30 years, but as long as they've been around, SS's customer service has been second to none. As long as it's under the same ownership, I don't see why that would change. If they (god forbid) get bought out by B&DPCDWDelta or some other anonymous corporate giant that could change.

If parts become unavailable or exorbitantly expensive to replace, it's a simple matter of replacing the control station with a low voltage contactor to turn a SS into a conventional saw. Many agree that the SS is the best cabinet saw available regardless of the technology, so if worse comes to worse, you have a good cabinet saw that doesn't stop... just like if you'd bought one of the other ones.

-kg

[Van Huskey]

You probably won't find anything but WAGs unless a EE has really gone over one then it would be more like just a wild guess. I think a 10 years time frame is resonable before any serious electrical fixes, after that it may be simple and it may go down hill quick. Just no way to know until it happens but worst case senario you have a decent saw left if you have to convert to "conventional" operation.

[Brian Cover]

We have 2 of the first 50 SSs that were shipped and more than 5 years later we're still impressed by the technology.


SS parts are quite reasonably priced ESPECIALLY when compared to Delta. The control box for example is ~$120, the elevation locking woodruff key is $.25. A replacement 5hp,1ph motor is ~$250. The swinging door on the DC shroud is $12. We've bought the less expensive of those parts, but the expensive ones (motor, control box) were replaced under warranty.


It sounds as though they are not a very durable product if you have replaced all those parts in a 5 year period.

[Joe Chritz]

It wasn't long ago that an overhead shaft driven by a stream and leather belt drives were the top of the line and state of the art.

I would expect any electronic upgrades to be reverse compatible or at least an inexpensive upgrade when needed.

My crystal ball is in the shop so I can't say what will be in 20 years but I expect that the technology isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

joe

[Daniel Shnitka]

I believe the company behind the cumputer tecknology is the same contractor to NASA. The unit is sealed for dust and moisture.

It is interesting that you open youir original post in a similar question as the the Dewalt / Delta company line regarding Sawsatop. Just an observation.

[Michael Schwartz]

The Saw-Stop seems to be a quality product that is well engineered, and made to last. Some of the first ICS saws have been around for 5+ years now in day to day use and the only complaints I have heard have been damage to the switch and blade guards from abuse.

All of the electronics of the saw are contained in the switch and brake cartridge so replacement is easy, and a fraction of the cost of the saw. I suppose if SS were to no longer exist you could probably install your own magnetic switch and just forget about the safety mechanism.

I have worked with the ICS in two different shops, as well as two PCS'S in another. Personally I own the contractor saw outfitted with cast iron table, and 52" fence and extension. I purchased the contractor saw to replace my Jet JTAS-10XL cabinet saw, and I don't regret it. I held onto the jet for a year and sold it a few months ago.

Without going into the politics that plague these threads all I can say about the technology is that I approve of it since I bought it.

[Sean lennon]

I work for a company that builds machine tool controls. one of the problems we fight is the rate at which some of the semiconductors we use become obsolete. Support of legacy equipment that is still running 25yrs later, half the chips in the controller are no longer made, is a nightmare.

I am certain that a SS control is far less complex than a 5 axis machine tool control but the problem is the same...obsolescence of components, connectors, etc.

The problem isn't 10 years down the road, it is most likely a bit farther.


that said; with the control system being fairly simple, total replacement of the electronic portion in the future would be a fair solution.

Sean

[Brian Ashton]

Not to be rude, but I thought that SS threads were taboo as of recent.

Its not my place to call it, but just be aware that the mods might shut this thread down.

-Brendan

Most SS threads were shut down because they went personal... This thread I made it clear to keep that to yourself...

[Brian Ashton]

I believe the company behind the cumputer tecknology is the same contractor to NASA. The unit is sealed for dust and moisture.

It is interesting that you open youir original post in a similar question as the the Dewalt / Delta company line regarding Sawsatop. Just an observation.

It's an observation that in no way is related to anything I had to say. To be completely honest I have no idea where delta stands on SS. I usually stopped reading SS threads soon after they're started because they denigrate into play ground insults... Hence the reason I started it with "This is not about..."

[Brian Ashton]

I work for a company that builds machine tool controls. one of the problems we fight is the rate at which some of the semiconductors we use become obsolete. Support of legacy equipment that is still running 25yrs later, half the chips in the controller are no longer made, is a nightmare.

I am certain that a SS control is far less complex than a 5 axis machine tool control but the problem is the same...obsolescence of components, connectors, etc.

The problem isn't 10 years down the road, it is most likely a bit farther.


that said; with the control system being fairly simple, total replacement of the electronic portion in the future would be a fair solution.

Sean

I guess that's where I would like to see things go before I find confidence in the product. Take for instance Oneway lathes. They use a fairly complex inverter to power the motor. But that is an isolated unit that is completely independent from the lathe itself. In other words I can put any inverter in the lathe and it will work, I may have to replace the control unit also... But for the most part the swap over if relatively simple for anyone to do. But if the parts in a SS become obsolete where do you go to get replacement parts if SS chooses to stop making them. Or! the components are no longer available to SS. Basically, if there is only one company in the game I am very hesitant to jump in as there is no standard and nothing to back them up.

I guess if there is any point to this thread it would be to shed light on an area that needs to be sorted out... To bring pressure on SS to step up and make a commitment by bringing it to the public forum. I suspect that there is at least one lacky at SS that is reading these threads...

[Brian Ashton]

I believe the company behind the cumputer tecknology is the same contractor to NASA. The unit is sealed for dust and moisture.

It is interesting that you open youir original post in a similar question as the the Dewalt / Delta company line regarding Sawsatop. Just an observation.

Technology (except for SS's need to keep up) is not the problem it's the availability of parts and the retrofitting of older machines in the relatively near future that is the reason for the thread. There is a possibility that I didn't make that clear - not the first time I've done that...

[Paul Ryan]

As other have said the technology that SS uses if very simple compared to many other devices made and engineered today. But over time parts are going to fair it is no different than any other product. But I really see no reason for the main components not to be serviced. Control box, brakes, wiring harness, what else is there. There really arn't that many components to replaced. Every saw wether it is produced by delta, powermatic, jet, grizzly, ryobi, and others have their own components that arn't interchangeable with other brands. As long as sawstop survives, and recent indications show sawstop is more healthy than other tool manufacturers, I don't worry about service.

I believe the benifits of the saw far out weigh the chances of service issues in the future. And if the worst happens, sawstop goes under and I cannot get another control box. I will order a 220 magnetic switch and change my saw over to a conventional saw.

After reading the latest reviews from most publications it appears that most believe sawstop hit a home run with the PCS. Because it is selling so well I don't think it will be long before another manufacturer has a type of saw out with a flesh sensing technology. My WAG is powermatic will be next. The PM 2000 will be redesigned with flesh sensing technology. I think delta is looking like the south end of north bound horse, for producing a new saw with out the technology. The new uni is highly regarded but sales are poor because of it nearest competition.

I have owned my saw for over a year now, and I am still extremely happy every time I use it. And this table saw will last much longer than the $2000-$3000k computers families were buying in the early 90's. Machinery doesn't evolve as fast as other electronics. And sawstop tables saws are still much more machinery then they are electronic.

[Mitchell Andrus]

...Or! the components are no longer available to SS. Basically, if there is only one company in the game I am very hesitant to jump in as there is no standard and nothing to back them up.

I plan on getting a SS after moving and letting the dust settle down.

I plan to buy a spare switch unit and a few brake assy's. In my shop being down while waiting for a replacement of either costs money, and if Mr. Gass gets flattened by a meteor, I'm covered for a while at least.

I HATE buying/depending on anything for which there is only one supplier and that supply is so dependent on one individual keeping his interest.
.

[Michael MacDonald]

Of course SS will keep making parts for the older saws - but for how long. ... Or will they "force" you to upgrade the electronics for who know how much... ... In that today's business attitude is nothing last more than 10 years, ...


I think we are likely to see replacement parts go in the other direction. Not become obsolete, but become commoditized.

After a period of growth and with enough installed units, I would think that SS (the company) would find it valuable to license the brake technology and allow a third party to market these components. Probably would be the same manufacturer that actually makes them, or perhaps an enterprising company that already has a parts and service pipeline.

SS could also find it valuable... after generating enough goodwill as a high-end brand name... to license the technology for use in other saws. Then they could sit back and milk the cash cow indefinitely.

Remember, this will be about economics--invisible hand and all that yadda yadda. If there is money to be made doing this, then someone is likely to pop up doing it. So if there are enough saws out there, someone will find it valuable to be making replacement parts for them. This is why SS (the company) is able to come out of the weeds and establish itself in a short time... Perhaps the other companies who had the early option to license the brake technology made the right decision in terms of game theory (even considering SS's success in entering the market), but clearly there is a market demand for it, and now only one company meets that demand.

Consider car parts as an example to assess feasibility of the commoditization idea... I would think that some of the liability risks are the same as well. And cars are much more complex.

I do agree that technology changes rapidly, and I am having a hard time coming up with a technology that has remained static forever. Basic phones still work, even though there are vastly improved technologies on the market. And cell phones and skype. But when you think of it, the reason that tech changes is because higher demands on thoughput, content, usage, etc... bandwidth needs go up, screen resolution goes up, interaction increases, mobility becomes the focus, etc. With the SS, what improvements can be made? Sensing resistence and increasing force on the blade? Increasing and decreasing speed of the blade? Automated adjusting of the ZCI in order to eliminate chipout? Automated sharpening of the blade? Internet connectivity for monitoring and software upgrade by the company? Anti-virus and spyware protection? Integration with pickup trucks for in-flight tree trimming? (e.g. the eddie bauer christmas tree cutting ford f150 special edition?)

Perhaps some of these crazy ideas would require different electronic technology, but they are pretty crazy ideas. BTW, there are software upgrades avilable for some SS components. I had a problem with the brake, and sent it in for analysis. They said they couldn't find anything wrong, but they would upgrade the software and they sent it back. Now I worry about all my other brakes.

On second thought, where did I put my handsaws?

[Rob Steffeck]

Brian,

I work in the high tech sector and obsolescence, updates, upgrades, etc are an unfortunate every day occurence in my life. I had very similar questions as you do with respect to the SS. I was sold on the safety aspect, however I could not get past the thoughts about obsolescence, reflashing, firmware updates, BSOD (blue saw of death), etc. It was only for this reason that I chose a saw with virtually no technology or innovation in it whatsoever.


DB9 connectors for example.


IMHO, the DB9 connector is good enough

Had I known the SS came with some kind of connection to an Aston-Martin, I would have definitely purchased one.

[Ray Newman]

Gents: thanks for the responses to this thread.

As some may recall, I am considering a SawStop PCS. But I 'nevva' gave consideration to the electronic components. I thought that the electronics were very simple and basic. From what I understand, the heart of the system is in the power switch and the brake cartridge?? Never gave a thought to obsolescence and/ subsequent parts unavailability -- either planned or from changes in the technology or the market place. When I consider my circa 1988 Unisaw, the only partts that I replaced were arbor bearings. Something more to think about....

Kevin Groenke: you mentioned 25 firings in approximately five years on two SawStop machines. This caught my attention, then I realized this was in an “educational shop with hundreds of hard users.”

By an “educational setting“, is this a school shop setting or classes taught at a wood store like Woodcraft?? Any idea if these firings can be attributed to operator error or “Hey! Watch this -- let’s see if it works” incidents?

[Victor Robinson]

Brian,

I work in the high tech sector and obsolescence, updates, upgrades, etc are an unfortunate every day occurence in my life. I had very similar questions as you do with respect to the SS. I was sold on the safety aspect, however I could not get past the thoughts about obsolescence, reflashing, firmware updates, BSOD (blue saw of death), etc. It was only for this reason that I chose a saw with virtually no technology or innovation in it whatsoever.





Had I known the SS came with some kind of connection to an Aston-Martin, I would have definitely purchased one.


LOL....sorry. My post should have said, "whatever primitive connector the SS uses.." I'm too lazy to find out the actual answer. :p

[Sean Nagle]

Given that the brake component is totally self-contained and replaceable and that the saw can always be converted to a conventional saw, there is little risk of someone ending up with a boat anchor down the road as long as SawStop maintains backwards compatibility for installation of the cartridge unit.

[Glenn Vaughn]

The worst case scenerio would be no cartriges available. In this case it would be a matter of a new switch wired directly to the motor to have a saw that would run (though the safety feature would be gone).

[Kevin Groenke]

Kevin Groenke: you mentioned 25 firings in approximately five years on two SawStop machines. This caught my attention, then I realized this was in an “educational shop with hundreds of hard users.”

By an “educational setting“, is this a school shop setting or classes taught at a wood store like Woodcraft?? Any idea if these firings can be attributed to operator error or “Hey! Watch this -- let’s see if it works” incidents?

We are a student shop in a design school at a public university. The vast majority of the stops have been from user error such as: cutting into conductive materials and/or jigs or failing to adjust the blade-to-brake gap correctly. A couple stops have been unsolved even after SS analyzed the cartridge. Two stops have been legitimate "finger saves". To our knowledge, nobody has intentionally set off the brake for s---s and giggles. Well, I did, but it was for a legitimate demonstration when we first got the machines.


It sounds as though they are not a very durable product if you have replaced all those parts in a 5 year period.

Perhaps. I have attributed some of this to fact that these are 2 of the first machines off the line. If the company had not promptly and effectively dealt with issues, we may have been more frustrated. Both the control stations and the motors have been redesigned as SS had discovered some longevity issues with the original parts. As I mentioned, we have pretty hard users: they're always breaking machines and we're always fixing them. If anything, the SSs have required less maintenance and repair than the Unisaws that they replaced or other equipment from major manufacturers in our shop. All repairs have been of easily serviced parts, failures of other machines have sometimes been more significant such as broken castings or bearing failures.


-kg

[William Duffer]

Wow, a lot of stuff to think about. I like the new technology, it seems to be heading in the right direction. It sounds like they are trying to make a safer machine, yet in the infancy stage of any new design there will be hick-ups. If you are unsure of the longevity of the technology than wait a few years to purchase one. I would like to think they have the end users safety and loyalty in mind. Maybe they won't last but they seem to be standing behind their equipment and upgrading when necessary. Maybe I am Naive of this issue but that is why I like this Forum so much, I have learned a lot from all of you. Well, except the Mods you guys are mean.:):):):eek: No you guys keep us on track, thanks for your time.

[Charles Krieger]

I am a retired electronics engineer and I know first hand how hard it is to design equipment for a 15-year lifespan. (Even if the MTBF is 15 years half the systems will fail before 15 years.) Most electronic components are obsolete for new design in <18 months. Few can be purchased 5 to 6 years after introduction. Even the ubiquitous DB9 connector will fade away though at one time it was likely the most popular connector ever manufactured.

HOWEVER:

It is likely that as technology changes that a company like SawStop will re-engineer the product and make the newly engineered product available as an expensive retrofit. My guess is that this will happen on an interval of about 5-10 years. I suspect that if you were to purchase a new control module for the saw stop today that it would bear little resemblance to the original version shipped a few years back. Parts that are form, fit and function compatible yes, but not the same as the original. If SawStop does not support their product with retrofit components they will find their business model will not work and I believe that they are smart enough to know that.

Other economic factors could put SawStop out of business that would be a problem for SawStop owners. Who would re-engineer the components? Who would build them? If I were still in business I wouldn't touch that with a 10' pole. Liability, lack of knowledge of all the configurations in the field and limited sales all add up to a lose, lose situation for a third party to pick up the pieces.

At this time SawStop seems to be doing well and there is little fear that they are going to go out of business however in the 1950's no one would have predicted that GM would go through bankruptcy and require a government bailout. Nothing is for sure!

I did not buy a SawStop because I was worried that the system was new and there were not yet enough users to have thoroughly tested the product however if I were buying today I would not hesitate to buy the SawStop.

One final thought: If you are safety conscious enough to consider buying the SawStop you are probably safety conscious enough to have a better than average chance you will not need the feature to save your finger. But buy it anyway!

[Chip Lindley]

The worst case scenerio would be no cartriges available. In this case it would be a matter of a new switch wired directly to the motor to have a saw that would run (though the safety feature would be gone).

The Achille's Heel of SawStop is it's necessisity to replace a cartridge every time it blows. And there is nowhere on the SS website that communicates the cost of a replacement! This facet of ownership is downplayed.

The very worst case scenario would be that this electro-mechanical technology is replaced by other cheaper technology which would not require replacement of a new cartridge assembly each time an actuation is triggered! The push of a reset button would obsolete SS overnight! Then, every Big Box store in the universe will be behind an effort to increase SAFE sales while increasing the licensor's bottom line. When the technology becomes cheap enough to include on every home/worksite TS sold, so will the number of interested companies who make TSs. If they don't buy IN, they will be left OUT.

No politics here, just a fact: Any legislation mandating TS safety devices, will also introduce increased competition and diversity. SS may then lose out to more innovative (cheaper) technology. Necessity is the Mother of Invention--especially when bigger bucks are involved.

Nobody knows how SS longivity will play out over years. There's an old saying: "You pays your money, and you takes your chances!"

[Michael MacDonald]

The Achille's Heel of SawStop is it's necessisity to replace a cartridge every time it blows. And there is nowhere on the SS website that communicates the cost of a replacement! This facet of ownership is downplayed.

c'mon Chip... this is rehashing an old, tired and uninteresting argument. (I am commenting not on the idea that the replacement is a detraction, but that the cost is hidden and is a sneaky surprise sprung by the company.) Sorry to be so harsh.. I am pretty uninteresting myself...



The very worst case scenario would be that this electro-mechanical technology is replaced by other cheaper technology which would not require replacement of a new cartridge assembly each time an actuation is triggered! The push of a reset button would obsolete SS overnight!"

as uninteresting as the prior comment was, this is a good point. (see? I am "fair and balanced". Just like Fox news.) In fact, I saw a website a few months ago with an crusty old gent displaying a saw brake technology that would be competitive. The website text indicated he was looking for contact from individuals with funding. I haven't seen it since then... but perhaps the guy was on to something... Let me try to find the link. And yes, a reset button just might bring to fruition all the implied and explicit warnings present in this thread, and the millions of luddite threads since the introduction of SS... so, in that sense, it is a gamble.

I still think that if there is an installed base, and there is money to be made, someone will service it...

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Just another $0.02...I am a marketer of consumer products and I have a slightly different way of assessing the risk of the technology becoming obsolete (as opposed to that of an engineer). And this was my thinking before purchasing my PCS in December:

1) MARKET SHARE! Whether it is superior technology may be somewhat a matter of preference (as evidenced in what seems like thousands and thousands of posts on this forum), but the fact that Saw Stop has in a matter of months really (okay a few years) become the #1 selling cabinet saw in the US, taking significant market share from Delta, Powermatic, etc. Brands with HUGE amounts of brand equity...nearly 100 years worth!! Look at the way Delta suddenly started updating their top of the line Unisaw...with new safety features. And Delta's price point is within pennies of the SS PCS. And in a monster recession no less!! Think of all the years and $$$ that Delta spent underwriting Norm and NYW! Or the other guy...Scott Phillips (Ned Flanders to those who love wood and the Simpsons).

2) DISTRIBUTION UBIQUITY! Big box stores and manufacturer direct selling (grizzly) aside, are there any woodworking or serious power tool dealers around who are not selling the machines (or wish they were?). Take a look at the "local dealer finder" feature on SS's website...compare with Delta, Powermatic, steel city... I have launched new products professionally and let me tell you getting the consumer to adopt a new item (or idea) at a $2 price is not easy. And neither is getting a retailer to carry it. I can only imagine the shock and awe in the industry at SS ability to be suddenly everywhere in less than 6 years from concept unveiling to today.

No way to know for sure what the future will hold for cabinet saws, but I decided based on the above (and the other regular factors associated with a $3000++ tool purchase!!) it was a safe bet. I don't own one (yet), but I wouldn't bet on the Ipod or Iphone going away anytime soon either.

[Michael MacDonald]

No way to know for sure what the future will hold for cabinet saws, but I decided based on the above (and the other regular factors associated with a $3000++ tool purchase!!) it was a safe bet. I don't own one (yet), but I wouldn't bet on the Ipod or Iphone going away anytime soon either.


We all look for arguments that support our own bias, so right now, i am liking Matt...

any way, I found the link I mentiond before... whirlwind tools... Can I post this? here it is: http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

Ha ha all you fools... this is the future of saw technology! Actually, I doubt it.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The Achille's Heel of SawStop is it's necessisity to replace a cartridge every time it blows. And there is nowhere on the SS website that communicates the cost of a replacement! This facet of ownership is downplayed.



The cost isn't it. It's the future availability of single-source parts that most seem to be concerned with.
.

[Ray Newman]

Michael McDonald: it a safety device designed by Whirlwind --http://www.whirlwindtool.com/ (http://www.whirlwindtool.com/)

[Ray Newman]

"The Achille's Heel of SawStop is it's necessisity to replace a cartridge every time it blows. And there is nowhere on the SS website that communicates the cost of a replacement! This facet of ownership is downplayed.
--Chip


Found on the the SS web page on 5/12/10:

"A heavy-duty aluminum brake stops the blade.
***
"Resetting the saw is easy. It takes about five minutes to replace the $69 single-use brake cartridge and blade."
http://www.sawstop.com/howitworks/how_brake.php

See also:
"The standard and dado brake cartridges are single-use components that must be changed if the brake is ever activated."
http://www.sawstop.com/howitworks/how_whitepaper.php

Mitchell Andrus: yes, I think the future availability of the brake cartridge is a concern for many.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

The cost isn't it. It's the future availability of single-source parts that most seem to be concerned with.
.

That's precisely it.

My thinking about SS establishing itself as a market leader and the sheer number of saws being sold is directly related to the fact that if there are enough saws in the world needing brake cartridges then even if SS meets its demise, then some support might arise (license) to meet the demand. Of course at one time lots of people owned 8-track players and they still might work if anyone was selling 8-track cassettes.

This is a very interesting thread. A $3K saw is a lot like buying a car I suppose. BTW, as I was building my shop-tooling from zero I spent a fair amount of time thinking about this issue more broadly. SS is compatible with standard arbor of any saw blade/dado set. Even miter slots and fence rails are standard.

I have been more concerned about other tools...my DW735 planer for instance is not particularly expensive tool, but there is no standard sizing in lunch-box planers or their replacement knives. Should I stock up on 13" knives? If you own a Byrd cutter head you have one source technology on inserts right? I won't even get into the questions I have about Festool tools.

[Neal Clayton]

Just another $0.02...I am a marketer of consumer products and I have a slightly different way of assessing the risk of the technology becoming obsolete (as opposed to that of an engineer). And this was my thinking before purchasing my PCS in December:

1) MARKET SHARE! Whether it is superior technology may be somewhat a matter of preference (as evidenced in what seems like thousands and thousands of posts on this forum), but the fact that Saw Stop has in a matter of months really (okay a few years) become the #1 selling cabinet saw in the US, taking significant market share from Delta, Powermatic, etc. Brands with HUGE amounts of brand equity...nearly 100 years worth!! Look at the way Delta suddenly started updating their top of the line Unisaw...with new safety features. And Delta's price point is within pennies of the SS PCS. And in a monster recession no less!! Think of all the years and $$$ that Delta spent underwriting Norm and NYW! Or the other guy...Scott Phillips (Ned Flanders to those who love wood and the Simpsons).

2) DISTRIBUTION UBIQUITY! Big box stores and manufacturer direct selling (grizzly) aside, are there any woodworking or serious power tool dealers around who are not selling the machines (or wish they were?). Take a look at the "local dealer finder" feature on SS's website...compare with Delta, Powermatic, steel city... I have launched new products professionally and let me tell you getting the consumer to adopt a new item (or idea) at a $2 price is not easy. And neither is getting a retailer to carry it. I can only imagine the shock and awe in the industry at SS ability to be suddenly everywhere in less than 6 years from concept unveiling to today.

No way to know for sure what the future will hold for cabinet saws, but I decided based on the above (and the other regular factors associated with a $3000++ tool purchase!!) it was a safe bet. I don't own one (yet), but I wouldn't bet on the Ipod or Iphone going away anytime soon either.

funny you mention the ipod/iphone. in less than a year, despite the huge marketing expense of apple, the iphone has been surpassed in sales by the google OS phones. they are now third behind the blackberry line which managed to move from a corporate-only business model to a for-public-use business model in less than 3 years time.

the lesson is, anyone who has built a business primarily on marketing (which i think applies to both apple and sawstop) is king for a day, not for a lifetime.

the fact that they advertise themselves as "#1 selling" kind of highlights that. that's a misleading claim at best. the reason none of the other manufacturers sell lots of saws is that people don't buy them new very often. they're designed to be serviceable by the user, so you don't throw one away and buy a new one when the belts and bearings wear out.

i've never owned or used a cabinet saw that was younger than ~20 years old.

[mreza Salav]

Predicting future is just a guess by everybody; *my* personal estimate is that the technology will be around for a long time and there is no need to go beyond the 9 pin serial connector it already has.

If SS goes under (very unlikely) or stops supporting the 20 year old saws, a third party company will step up to the plate (patents are gone by then).

Worst case, you can bypass all the electronic modules and have a great saw (better than most others) without the brake technology.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Neal,

Pick your own example if you want...Toyota/GM? (although you might want to dig a little deeper on the smartphone market before dismissing my example... http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/apple-iphone-smartphone-market-share-surges-rim-slips/34181 )

Nothing lasts forever, and no one is king forever. The only certainty in that change is constant.

[Gary Liming]

Hi Brian,

Not to be argumentative, but I wanted to say a couple of things in regard to your statement:

"One thing that is 100% assured- all the parts in those saws will fail regardless of how they're treated."

This is true in the same sense as "the sun will blow up in a billion years, so everything will eventually fail." It may be true, but it's not particularly helpful.

What is the failure rate of, say, a bolt that is used within specification of the machine's design envelope? (Forget about alloys, grades, etc. for now to simplify) The failure rate odds are in the one to 10,000,000 range, and that's being very conservative - in other words not in your lifetime, or your grandchildren's lifetime. (How much extra are you willing to spend on a saw that lasts past your grandchildren?) This argument then extends to all of the parts of the saw. Lets say we design for 3 generations, a hundred years. We do have to state what is typical usage, extraordinary usage, and what is not allowed. Perhaps cutting through a few nails in its lifetime is allowed, cutting aluminum with it perhaps, but surviving a direct lightning strike is not.

As someone who has an aviation system safety science background (this is the study of calculating reliability and failure modes of aviation related systems), I have a modest bit of insight into reliability of both mechanical systems and electronic ones, and the quote above, while very commonly spoken, just doesn't reflect what we now know to be true about reliability.

However, your point about parts becoming scarce due to obsolescence is a good one, but I wouldn't worry about the DB9 - it is used in so many Mil Spec devices that government contracts (which are very hard to kill) will require those things to made way past a better connector becomes widespread! I would worry more about the availability of some of the more esoteric electronic components. Unfortunately, the only guy who can speak to this is the design engineer who designed the SS circuits, and the rationale he used for selecting the parts. Hopefully, widespread availability of parts was an important goal for him. Most of the time it is certainly in the company's best interest to use widely available parts, as well as the consumer's.

I doubt that anyone had a System Hazard Analysis or a Failure Effects Mode Analysis done for the saw, but then again these aren't cheap and would probably raise the cost of the saw considerably, and the argument that most customers wouldn't really be interested in the result and therefore not be willing to pay for the additional development cost is a real issue. A measure of certainty about the reliability of a system is not cheap.

Adding any components to a system always lowers the reliability somewhat, so it stands to reason that two otherwise identical saws, one with the SS mechanism in place, and the other without, the more complicated one would have a higher failure rate. However, how much higher is proportional to whether or not the added complexity is prone to failure itself. All it has to be is out of the range of your grandchildren, which isn't too hard to do.

Like everything else, it just boils down to how experienced the engineer was who designed it, and whether he was given the time and resources to do a good job.

[Michael MacDonald]

the lesson is, anyone who has built a business primarily on marketing (which i think applies to both apple and sawstop) is king for a day, not for a lifetime.

not sure it is fair to compare the ipod and the table saw... ipod is a high volume consumer product with infinite functional permutatations. the marketing is--I agree with this--the main driver of ipod sales, which clearly needs marketshare protection in a crowded and evolving market... I think a business strategy consultant would not place that in the same category as the SS table saws...

[Matt Kestenbaum]

not sure it is fair to compare the ipod and the table saw... ipod is a high volume consumer product with infinite functional permutatations. the marketing is--I agree with this--the main driver of ipod sales, which clearly needs marketshare protection in a crowded and evolving market... I think a business strategy consultant would not place that in the same category as the SS table saws...

Okay...lets clarify why i mentioned it in the first place and what I said about it:

This thread was about the risk of adopting new technologies and specifically the newness of SS technology. I made the argument that SS was past the point of early-adopter trial and has already become a viable platform (I suggested its market share was a sign of its consumer adoption rate and distribution as evidence of retailer adoption). The Apple products were offered as other examples of relatively recent technology changes that similarly were questioned. Questioned about their viability as a platform and specifically whether their technology represented a significant step change to the status quo. That's why all I said was I wouldn't bet against the platforms disappearing. Love'em, hate'em or whatever...the viability of the platform is a foregone conclusion.

All tools...woodworking and otherwise...begin with a perceived need. Spotting it, understanding it, finding a way to meet it is marketing. Sometimes the need is more intrinsic, sometimes its more aesthetic and sometimes purely emotional.

[Greg Portland]

Those small innocent looking connectors crucial to the whole system.Take a trip over to the Felder forums or other equipment that has had electronics on it for quite some time. Are there occasional problems? Yes (usually fixed with some cleaning). Do things become obsolete? Yes (heck, already the ICS dust collection is obsoleted by the newer PCS implementation). Take a look at fences, riving knives, and other technology improvements to the 1940s era tablesaw. Even though the same parts may not bolt on to a 2010 machine there will be enough aftermarket interest for someone to provide a solution.

What I'm saying is that problems & obsolescence may occur but as long as you own a popular saw there will be solutions.

[Brian Ashton]

Hi Brian,

Not to be argumentative, but I wanted to say a couple of things in regard to your statement:

"One thing that is 100% assured- all the parts in those saws will fail regardless of how they're treated."

This is true in the same sense as "the sun will blow up in a billion years, so everything will eventually fail." It may be true, but it's not particularly helpful.

What is the failure rate of, say, a bolt that is used within specification of the machine's design envelope? (Forget about alloys, grades, etc. for now to simplify) The failure rate odds are in the one to 10,000,000 range, and that's being very conservative - in other words not in your lifetime, or your grandchildren's lifetime. (How much extra are you willing to spend on a saw that lasts past your grandchildren?) This argument then extends to all of the parts of the saw. Lets say we design for 3 generations, a hundred years. We do have to state what is typical usage, extraordinary usage, and what is not allowed. Perhaps cutting through a few nails in its lifetime is allowed, cutting aluminum with it perhaps, but surviving a direct lightning strike is not.

As someone who has an aviation system safety science background (this is the study of calculating reliability and failure modes of aviation related systems), I have a modest bit of insight into reliability of both mechanical systems and electronic ones, and the quote above, while very commonly spoken, just doesn't reflect what we now know to be true about reliability.

However, your point about parts becoming scarce due to obsolescence is a good one, but I wouldn't worry about the DB9 - it is used in so many Mil Spec devices that government contracts (which are very hard to kill) will require those things to made way past a better connector becomes widespread! I would worry more about the availability of some of the more esoteric electronic components. Unfortunately, the only guy who can speak to this is the design engineer who designed the SS circuits, and the rationale he used for selecting the parts. Hopefully, widespread availability of parts was an important goal for him. Most of the time it is certainly in the company's best interest to use widely available parts, as well as the consumer's.

I doubt that anyone had a System Hazard Analysis or a Failure Effects Mode Analysis done for the saw, but then again these aren't cheap and would probably raise the cost of the saw considerably, and the argument that most customers wouldn't really be interested in the result and therefore not be willing to pay for the additional development cost is a real issue. A measure of certainty about the reliability of a system is not cheap.

Adding any components to a system always lowers the reliability somewhat, so it stands to reason that two otherwise identical saws, one with the SS mechanism in place, and the other without, the more complicated one would have a higher failure rate. However, how much higher is proportional to whether or not the added complexity is prone to failure itself. All it has to be is out of the range of your grandchildren, which isn't too hard to do.

Like everything else, it just boils down to how experienced the engineer was who designed it, and whether he was given the time and resources to do a good job.


May have been a bit general when I said everything will eventually fail... But! What sets this saw apart is that the parts aren't readily available (relatively speaking). So when I put a SS next to a Powermatic I have to ask the question. When something fails, which is going to give me the least amount of stress to get it up and running again? To me I'd have to say the Powermatic. The safety feature is obviously an excellent bonus but which is more likely: I loose a finger or the saw at some point has a break down. For me I'd say the saw will fail first. So that's why I ask such questions. Also I don't buy things simply to sell them later. I plan on having most of what i buy, such as tools, for the rest of my life... So again which do I think will still be around in 25 years? Powermatic? definitely - even if the company goes extinct I'll be able to keep it running as has been the case for most any machine of similar pedigree over the last 100 years... SS? I doubt it. At this point, I personally don't think you'll see too many that are 20 years old that haven't bypassed the safety feature or have spent a lot of coin on upgrades.

I guess to sum it up it would be good to see a standard developed that allows some sort of lateral movement in choice of fixing a dead machine, other than completely ripping our the system that made you buy the saw in the first place... If my oneway inverter dies I don't need to buy another Yaskawa drive (in fact I couldn't even if I wanted to, as Yaskawa are next to impossible to find in australia. I might have the only oneway in the southern hemisphere to be honest...). But I can plug in any inverter and be up and running right away. Oneway were somewhat "exotic" when they first came out but the parts were readily available through multiple channels - you weren't reliant on them alone for anything that had a high probability of future failure. You can't say that for the SS. That always makes me take a wait and see approach to a product.

[Will Overton]

I do think that anything that uses cutting edge electronics will be improved upon a lot faster than an all mechanical products. I also know people who put off buying a computer because something better would be out in a year. At some point, if it's something you want, you either jump in or stand on the sidelines.

As an example, my first quality cameras lasted 20 years. The pictures quality got better over the years because of improvement in film. I held on to my first good ($5000) digital camera for almost 5 years. But new technology dictated that the only way to get the latest improvements in picture quality, was to get a new camera. It's coming up on 5 years, and I see a new camera in my future.

My guess (hope) with SawStop, is that if there is a large enough user base, that even if the company goes under, a third party manufacturer will see a market for replacement parts.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I like all the debate on the SS and I'm hoping to get a PCS soon. I wonder what merit there is to the technology obselesence though. While to us woodworkers this is a phenomenal jump in technology, but the sensors and hardware are not particularly earth shattering. I liked the comment about the engineering. These are relatively simple circuits and semiconductors, very-likely off-the-shelf. The only thing novel or "patentable" about the technology is the arrangement of these simple devices. I think SS is here to stay, I think that the braking mechanisms will either be licensed or stolen and applied to everything manufactured by our neighbors in the far east. Look at how prior tool technologies were copied, the old unisaw trunion system showed up on EVERYTHING, the DJ-20, contractor saws, the jet clone cast iron frame bandsaws there are many brands and sometimes they all just have different coats of paint. If the past is any indicator there will not be a single source and finding parts won't be that hard. And for all you that tout the availability of parts, have you ever tried to order parts from most of these suppliers, even PM doesn't support the 63 anymore, but you can buy clone parts from grizzly from the G1022 tablesaw that fit perfectly. Just my rant for the morning.

Ryan

[Kyle Iwamoto]

May have been a bit general when I said everything will eventually fail... But! What sets this saw apart is that the parts aren't readily available (relatively speaking).

What are you talking about? My local Woodcraft has common parts for the SS. I have a pair of brakes for replacement. I got a replacement guard. (I took the pawls off one to prevent scratching) Just as easy to get an insert for the SS as it is for my PM band saw. I think you're inventing things that you want to come true.