Grumbine video's ready for next viewer

[Bill Bolen]

Bill Grumbine’s excellent videos are available for Loan. These are the property of John Keeton and his posted rules apply. See below if you are unsure of the simple rules.

In trying to keep this all above board I decided to post when ready to send on rather than take pm requests. Hope this is ok with all. Thanks John for the loan! Great videos and I learned a few new things.
First contributor to respond here with a request to view gets them mailed to him…Bill..

The rules are:

1. Loans are restricted to Contributors of SMC, and I would expect that policy to be honored by others that may come into possession of these DVDs. If you aren't a Contributor, then pay the $6 and have an opportunity to borrow these DVDs, and others that may be available by other creekers.
2. These DVDs will be marked with my name. While I do not ever expect them back in my possession, should the interest in borrowing these cease, I would appreciate the individual holding them at the time sending me a PM for my address and returning them to me.
3. The DVDs should be cared for properly so they can be shared with others.
4. I will mail the DVD or DVDs to any Contributor wanting them for viewing. That person will diligently watch them to the extent they feel it takes to absorb the material, and then the holder shall promptly post a thread similar to this one seeking another interested individual. The person shipping shall bear the cost of shipping each time the DVDs change possession.
5. This arrangement is based solely on the honor system. I was gifted one of these DVDs, and purchased the remainder. They have been very helpful to me, and I hope they will help others. But, that can only happen if we have honest participation in this arrangement. If it doesn't work, then it is no great loss to me economically, but it will certainly be a disappointment to me.
6. SMC is not involved in this at all, has no liability, and this entire arrangement is voluntary on my part. I accept the risk of loss of the DVDs, and in no way intend to hold the owners/administrators/moderators of SMC liable in any way in the event of loss.

[Nigel Tracy]

Hi William I'd love to have a look at them.

Address PMed...

And I have a couple of my own to loan out soon myself.

Thanks :)

Nigel

[Bill Bolen]

Headed to Canada! Wonder how many miles they will have on them before they get back to Mr.Keeton?

[John Keeton]

Bill, hopefully, these end up as high mileage models!! Would be a neat idea to include a running list of viewers/location with the DVD - just folded up inside the cover! Maybe Nigel can catch up on that, and add you, along with his name/location??

[Bill Bolen]

Cool idea John. I don't ship till Monday (viewing one more time) so I will enclose a card...Bill...

[Mike Stephens]

Cool Bill. I strongly feel that all transactions should take place in the thread. For everyone to see. Doing it through PM's just is not right. I believe that the classified forum should be the same.

Mike

[Nigel Tracy]

Yep, I'll be glad to keep the tally running! What a neat way to keep track of the weaving of a web made by us vortex members of Sawmill Creek :)

Looking forward to the videos. My local supplier is a funny old guy who keeps saying "oh yeah, I seem to be out of those--better call Bill" every time I'm in his shop and ask for it!

I have a couple of others including the Jamieson set that I'll offer out as well when I pass these on. Thanks again :)

[Richard Madison]

Should there be a sign-up list for John's floating DVD's? But then it could develop into a "floating" SMC library as others add some DVD's. And we would need one of the already overworked moderators (or some gullible volunteer) to maintain and update the list. Maybe not a good idea.

[John Keeton]

Richard, when the topic of a mobile library was originally debated, a sign up list was one suggestion. The concept of an "SMC" library, with a mod involved, won't work for a variety of reasons, and I don't think Keith was totally comfortable with the concept.

Since this whole exchange idea is just among creekers, a sign up list probably wouldn't work as one would have to reference a thread that would quickly get some age on it.

Better to just do it like it is being done, IMO. Seems to work OK.

[Rob Holcomb]

Although I find what Mr. Keeton is doing to be a very nice gesture by loaning out his Grumbine videos, was Mr. Grumbine asked if it was ok to do so? After all, he obviously took a lot of time to make these videos and I'm sure he gets paid a percentage on each copy sold. I know there's no intent to do anything improper by loaning them out, Mr. Grumbine has done such a wonderful job making these, I wouldn't want to see him be slighted at all.

[John Keeton]

Rob, I understand your concerns, and I have a great deal of appreciation for Bill, and the videos he has made.

There have been a couple of folks express similar concerns, and I often wonder if there are similar concerns when one loans out a tool - did they seek permission from the manufacturer, as obviously the loan could prevent a possible sale? If one loans out a book, then the same concern applies.

What about when one loans their vehicle? I guess the comparisons are endless, but when I purchase an object, unless I violate copyright laws or create some other infringement, I feel free to give it away, loan it, destroy it, or pretty much do as I please with it.

I hope I have fairly expressed my views without seeming to be short with you, as that is not my intention.

[Rob Holcomb]

Mr Keaton, by no means did I feel like you were being short nor am I judging you by any means. Heck I respect the h*ll out of you for your knowledge and sharing of your wisdom on here. I too have loaned out many things to friends. As a matter of fact, my landscaping trailer is currently being used by a friend of mine. I was just thinking that Bill Grumbine is rather revered here on SMC and I don't know if he visits this site or not but I wouldn't want to see his feathers get ruffled. You don't see Mr. Grumbine's video clips on Youtube or other sites like you do for many other woodworking teachers so I assume there is a vested interest on his part. On the other side of the coin, I don't even know if Mr. Grumbine's videos have the encryption that would prevent duplication which would open a whole other can of worms.

[Bill Bolen]

Rob, think of the public library. Same deal here you just don't need a library card...Bill..

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

what will we think of next??:eek::eek::eek:

[Jon Lanier]

Nigel.... I'll jump in now for the next viewing!!!! ;)

[Bob Bergstrom]

Here's my story on dvd production. I was a video moderator in a high school. One of our money making projects was to produce the senior fashion show. The school got all the profits ($15 per dvd). Each year the number of sold dvds went down . The third year I had one father who was in the show, ask for a free one so he could copy it for the other men who were in the skit with him. Almost all of the woodturning dvds I have on woodturning and woodworking are not copy protected (cost too much, last I heard it was $35,000 minimum). It only takes a few minutes to copy a dvd that is not protected and the equipment is supplied with just about any computer. Enough people abuse the privilege, and we won't have any good turning video being produced.:(:(:(:(

[John Keeton]

Bob, I understand your comments on video copying, but nothing has been suggested here on copying a video. This is simply one individual loaning another individual the original DVD.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Understood John. I think it is a wonderful opportunity. Our club has a library and we do the same. As long as we all understand, that the wonderful turner we watch are trying to make a living and by copying their dvds we are stealing from them. If they can't see a profit in producing these tutorials we will lose them, and be viewing questionable techniques on youtube.

[Terry Murphy]

I would like to get in line when Johns 46-460 starts making its rounds....:D:D:D

[Grant Wilkinson]

FWIW I spoke to Bill about this thread. He cannot reply on this forum, so I am taking the liberty of doing so for him.

He realizes that lending out videos is not violating any law. His main concern - quite legitimate in my view - is that copies may be made. He is not accusing anyone here of doing that. However, he knows that it has gone on in the past. He hopes that, maybe, some of those who view the loaned copy will subsequently buy one - sort of a "try before you buy" thing.

I have both of Bill's videos and took a class with him at his shop a couple of years ago. I figure that both were money very well spent. I also figure that, compared to all the money that I've spent on machines and tools, buying the videos was pocket change.

[Nigel Tracy]

FWIW I spoke to Bill about this thread. He cannot reply on this forum...Why *could not* anyone reply on this forum? I would understand *would not* but *could not*? Just curious... hope he's OK...
He hopes that, maybe, some of those who view the loaned copy will subsequently buy one - sort of a "try before you buy" thing.I for one have this intention absolutely. Before finding solid resources such as this forum I purchased a DVD that I consider to be poor value, and have never looked at it twice. Since then I've been shy to buy another one. If I like Bill's DVD, which seems likely, I will certainly support him with a purchase of one of his products at some point.

Not an opinion on wider debates, just my own story and I'm sticking to it :)

[bob svoboda]

Bill, hopefully, these end up as high mileage models!! Would be a neat idea to include a running list of viewers/location with the DVD - just folded up inside the cover! Maybe Nigel can catch up on that, and add you, along with his name/location??
Mike Minto started that with the Raffan videos and I have carried it on. So far video 1 has been from the East Coast to the West Coast and on to Canada. Video 2 has been from the East Coast the the West Coast and is on its way back to the East Coast. I'm thinking it would be fun to be the designated delivery person for these videos. Think about all the shops you could visit!:D IMHO this system is working well the way you set it up, John. Thanks.