CNC Routers - who would be interested.... [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 8:43 AM

Greetings again fellow woodworkers.

During the last couple of years we have been designing and refining a shop made CNC router. This machine is just now starting to appear in the magazine as we have it running pretty good. Our original goal with the CNC router was to present a "How to build a CNC router" story series in the magazine.

Here are its current specs...

Computer required - Pentium running at 1 ghz with Windows XP
Power supply to run machine 110 Volt
Cost to construct (excluding, router, computer, and base cabinet) $1700.00
Travels - 5 inches Z axis, 28" Y axis, 38" X axis
Speeds, 150 Inches per minute maximum
Recommended router - 1 1/2 Hp to 3 Hp

While commercial routers are generally priced at the bottom end around $6,000.00, don't think that this machine is a toy by comparision. The machine performs equally with larger industrial machines, jut a little bit slower on top end cutting speeds. The price of $1,700.00 is still a rough estimate as there are changes planned, some of which will increase cost, some which will reduce costs.

If you don't mind, could you offer some: opinions, thoughts, suggestions, or any other comments about CNC routers. Of particular importance, I am wondering if there is enough appeal in the home woodworker market to justify running such an article in the magazine.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing your comments.

Chris DeHut

Kurt Aebi

11-19-2004, 9:04 AM

Keith Christopher

11-19-2004, 9:23 AM

I would love to see this. The shop made tools are so awesome!

Bob Aquino

11-19-2004, 9:50 AM

Sounds interesting. Curious about the software for it. Is it commercial, open source or yet to be developed? What type of 3d file does it take to run? How about the mechanism to move the router in all axis; where does this come from?

As for the cost, I dont think that would be an issue. Lots of people have been spending past 2k on bandsaws and more than that on euro combo equipment. Probably would be a boon to small shops that do commerical work.

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 10:03 AM

Actually, the overall design would allow for the use of either a DOS based computer or a Windows Xp computer. The software we are currently testing is available in several different versions to accomodate various levels of computer power.

In the story, we will focus on the "current' version of whichever software package we select but also point out other options. Also, CNC machines do require a substantial amount of computing power, so those old 486s probably are not the best choice for good performance.

Chris

Chris,

It's a good idea.

I think it would really be better; though, if the computer could be of a lesser grade. That way, maybe we could use up some of the old 486's and Pentium 75's that are still working, but no longer have viable uses. This would be right up the alley of a use for one of the Old Clunkers.

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 10:04 AM

I too love shop made tools - this was a major driving force to create this machine.

Chris

I would love to see this. The shop made tools are so awesome!

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 10:11 AM

Yes, the software is "Off the shelf" and is priced very resonable for the features it offers. In fact, if you are familar with CNC, then you are probably aware of FANUC controls. The software we are currently testing rivals many of the features of that control - in some regards, exceeds the features.

The control software allows for the direct import of DXF files. However, it will not work directly with 3D DXF files (I beleive). Doing 3D work generally requires both CAD and CAM software to generate the 3D geometry needed to run CNC machines.

For motion control we are using ball screws and stepper motors. Servo motors are just too expensive for this application. We are currently testing the second driver board and are very impressed with it, very smooth motion, high speed, good power range, and low cost. The drawback to this particular board though is that it has to be soldered - it only took about an hour to solder it up though as there are a minimum of components.

I agree on the cost issue. Comparatively, a good table saw is about in this price range, many band saws are, and heck, I think there are some folks that have spent more than that on their router table setups.

Chris

Sounds interesting. Curious about the software for it. Is it commercial, open source or yet to be developed? What type of 3d file does it take to run? How about the mechanism to move the router in all axis; where does this come from?

As for the cost, I dont think that would be an issue. Lots of people have been spending past 2k on bandsaws and more than that on euro combo equipment. Probably would be a boon to small shops that do commerical work.

JayStPeter

11-19-2004, 10:32 AM

I'm interested. I have been thinking about doing that myself. I'd be interested to see what pitfalls you've overcome along the way.

What kind of accuracy to you get with the stepper motors?

I hate to tell you all this, but 1G machines are well on their way to being clunkers. Most companies are now replacing anything less. In another year or so ... Anyway, figure you could add the 1G computer to the $1700 CNC machine for about $150 used. Sheesh, just throw away the 486s already. :p :D

Jay

Kurt Aebi

11-19-2004, 10:49 AM

Jay,

Just trying to find a use for these rather than becoming some more Toxic waste in an already over toxic wasted environment - OKAY??

Oh Yea - I Still have a couple of Simpson Analog Voltmeters as well. The response time of the needle has saved my butt when troubleshooitng some New >1GHz computer systems that a New Super Powered DVM would have missed due to it's limited Sample Rate. Don't disregard older technology as passe, as it may be even better than some of today's!

SORRY for trying to be Frugle and environmentally concious! Sheesh!
__________________________________________________ _______________

Sorry for responding in this manner, but the tone of the thread above is getting to happen more & more often and rubs me th ewrong way. Opinions are great and should be heard, bu tth etone - please think about that.

Chris - Thank you for answering my computer use question - it was clear, concise and I thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I needed no more explaination than that.

Again, I appoogize for going off - topic and messing up this very interesting thread. I will try to have broader shoulders next time.

Thanks,

Kurt

Jackie Outten

11-19-2004, 11:39 AM

Gentlemen,

Let's stick to the topic at hand please.

Jackie

George Grubaugh

11-19-2004, 11:55 AM

Dean Baumgartner

11-19-2004, 12:04 PM

I would be more interested in a manual X,Y,Z setup that's accurate & built with parts that could be readily ordered & would max out at $500.00.

Maybe that would only get an X,Y setup if it used bearings & steel rods?

Just my $.02

George, do a google for the copy carver. You need to have a full scale pattern but other than that it sould work well. I ordered the plans, just haven't gotten around to building the thing yet.

Dean

Mike Kelly

11-19-2004, 12:44 PM

Chris, I have what I consider is a shop built CNC machine which is rather crude by today's standards, but it works for what I use it for. I can do small signs, plaques for things I make, and board games that I can put people's names on.
I use the original Compaq Portable with an 8086 processor, a full 64 MB of RAM and a "huge" 10 MB hard disk. The driver for this is an old HPGL plotter, "Sweet P", made by Enter Computer. I had to slow down the pen-up/down command to allow for raising and lowering the overkill 3 1/4 HP router which is driven by an air solenoid controlled by a relay driven from the logic on the board. This was an overarm pin router made by Porta-Nails in Wilmington, NC. I had a 6" aluminum riser block added to the arm so the X-Y Table would fit under it. The table is made with Thompson ball screws and slides with homemade end plates and stepper mounting things. The table is an aluminum plate drilled for vacuum so a vacuum chuck can be used for hold down. A vacuum motor from Edmonds Scientific gives adequate suck for most objects. The X-Y travel is about 16" x 16" and fixed Z axis movement has about 6 inches of adjustability. It is under computer control, but just up or down. It has 32,000 x 32,000 matrix for X-Y travel so accuracy is not an issue.
I had a catastrophy happen a couple of years ago. My original hard drive froze finally which shut me down. I had been letting the computer warm up and then drop the front of the computer about 3 inches, reboot and it would wind up and work. This worked for about 2 years. Couldn't find replacement hard drive for sure, so I looked on EBay and found several old Compaq's in very good condition and working so I bid on them. Natcherally I won all of them! None of them cost over $10 or $15, but the $30 shipping on each one ate my lunch. I have a closet full of spares now!

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 12:49 PM

Most of the pitfalls so far have been along the lines of buying/trying products for the router that simply don't perform well. As I have an extensive background in CNC machine tools, my expectations are pretty high regarding performance and accuracy. In other words, if I could make this into a CNC machining center, I would, but that won't happen in the budget range we are aiming for.

As for accuracy with steppers, that is a small part of the accuracy equation. As configured right now, the steppers are giving me a theoretical linear accuracy (based on motor rotation and ball screw) of .00025". However, as you may suspect, actually accuracy and repeatability are not that good. The ball nuts for example are not pre-loaded so they have a little backlash. In testing last week, the machine was moving within an accuracy of .0035 and a repeatability of .001" over 38 inches of X axis travel. So far so good on accuracy and repeatability.

As for those old computers, I know what you mean but it sure is hard to throw them away :-)

Chris

I'm interested. I have been thinking about doing that myself. I'd be interested to see what pitfalls you've overcome along the way.

What kind of accuracy to you get with the stepper motors?

I hate to tell you all this, but 1G machines are well on their way to being clunkers. Most companies are now replacing anything less. In another year or so ... Anyway, figure you could add the 1G computer to the $1700 CNC machine for about $150 used. Sheesh, just throw away the 486s already. :p :D

Jay

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 12:51 PM

That is another type of machine I have been considering. With machines like the "Multi router" costing even more than your price point, I believe there is a good market for a shop build "Router/milling machine".

Keep an eye on our website to see if that develops.

Chris

I would be more interested in a manual X,Y,Z setup that's accurate & built with parts that could be readily ordered & would max out at $500.00.

Maybe that would only get an X,Y setup if it used bearings & steel rods?

Just my $.02

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 12:54 PM

Very cool machine! Great story to accompany it too. Looks to me like you not only had fun building it, but you are getting some good use out of it.

Chris

Chris, I have what I consider is a shop built CNC machine which is rather crude by today's standards, but it works for what I use it for. I can do small signs, plaques for things I make, and board games that I can put people's names on.
I use the original Compaq Portable with an 8086 processor, a full 64 MB of RAM and a "huge" 10 MB hard disk. The driver for this is an old HPGL plotter, "Sweet P", made by Enter Computer. I had to slow down the pen-up/down command to allow for raising and lowering the overkill 3 1/4 HP router which is driven by an air solenoid controlled by a relay driven from the logic on the board. This was an overarm pin router made by Porta-Nails in Wilmington, NC. I had a 6" aluminum riser block added to the arm so the X-Y Table would fit under it. The table is made with Thompson ball screws and slides with homemade end plates and stepper mounting things. The table is an aluminum plate drilled for vacuum so a vacuum chuck can be used for hold down. A vacuum motor from Edmonds Scientific gives adequate suck for most objects. The X-Y travel is about 16" x 16" and fixed Z axis movement has about 6 inches of adjustability. It is under computer control, but just up or down. It has 32,000 x 32,000 matrix for X-Y travel so accuracy is not an issue.
I had a catastrophy happen a couple of years ago. My original hard drive froze finally which shut me down. I had been letting the computer warm up and then drop the front of the computer about 3 inches, reboot and it would wind up and work. This worked for about 2 years. Couldn't find replacement hard drive for sure, so I looked on EBay and found several old Compaq's in very good condition and working so I bid on them. Natcherally I won all of them! None of them cost over $10 or $15, but the $30 shipping on each one ate my lunch. I have a closet full of spares now!

Dennis Peacock

11-19-2004, 1:26 PM

If you did this in your publication? I would subscribe TODAY!!!!! :D I am VERY interested since the price will be under the $5K range.

Kurt Aebi

11-19-2004, 1:38 PM

Chris,

Looks like the responses are favorable to doing the article. Thanks for sharing.

I really like Mike's setup - it really looks like a real neat design and if it works and it sure looks that way. Great!

Can't wait for the article (more powerful computer than in my junk bin and all! lol)

Is the X-Y a comercial, ready to go or homemade setup?

Dave Moran

11-19-2004, 3:03 PM

Chris, I think you will get a lot of positive response, an additional idea would be an X,Y only for cabinet panels, and a big extra would be that once someone got the CNC bug if the Z axis could be added at a later time. I know it would catch my eye.

Dave

JayStPeter

11-19-2004, 3:26 PM

...

As for accuracy with steppers, that is a small part of the accuracy equation. As configured right now, the steppers are giving me a theoretical linear accuracy (based on motor rotation and ball screw) of .00025". However, as you may suspect, actually accuracy and repeatability are not that good. The ball nuts for example are not pre-loaded so they have a little backlash. In testing last week, the machine was moving within an accuracy of .0035 and a repeatability of .001" over 38 inches of X axis travel. So far so good on accuracy and repeatability.

As for those old computers, I know what you mean but it sure is hard to throw them away :-)

Chris

Chris,

I did mean accuracy and repeatability of the whole setup. But, some steppers aren't really that great in and of themselves. Sounds like you're using some pretty good ones. The results you've got are pretty darn good for the intended purpose.

I have certainly been guilty of saving too many computers. I finally lightened the load in my last move, tossing 5 full computers ranging from a dual floppy "portable" XT up to P133. I think the only chip generation not accounted for was the 286.

Thanks,

Jay

JayStPeter

11-19-2004, 3:32 PM

Kurt Aebi

11-19-2004, 3:55 PM

Jay,

Sorry 'bout over-reacting like that, Humor is always welcome - I guess I was just not smart enough to pick up on it!

I've sent you a PM, but hought it'd be good to post an appology here as well.

Kurt

Gary Sutherland

11-19-2004, 5:15 PM

First, I am FAR from an expert or even very experienced amateur when it come to CNC machining. I just find small (not neccesarily in table size, but in HP, speed, etc.) CNC routers fascinating. Of course there's always the argument about whether it's fine woodworking or automation, but to me it's just a wonderful tool that you can use well or poorly. (A lot like all the other tools I have.)

For those interested, CNC Zone has a DIY forum with lots of people who have built their own woodworking routers, sometimes on ridiculously small budgets. I'm just an occasional lurker there, but they have lots of discussions about where to get parts, including extreme low cost solutions like motors from photo copiers! They also talk about different low end software solutions.

Most of these people seem to build from their own plans, and I know you are suggesting supplying complete plans and shopping lists, which will probably be more applealing to most people. It's interesting tho to see what people can do; some have full machine shop capablilties and some build their routers from MDF with a saw and a drill!! Amazingly, in the end each person's machine seems to work.

I'd be very interested in your coverage of this subject.

gary

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 5:55 PM

Keep watching our website. Once we roll with it, it will be an ongoing series as there is so much to cover on it.

Chris

If you did this in your publication? I would subscribe TODAY!!!!! :D I am VERY interested since the price will be under the $5K range.

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 5:58 PM

The entire machine is shop made. Much of it is aluminum to give it strength. Some components are even made from wood where allowable. So, yes, the X, Y, and Z are shop made- inexpensive, rigid, and a little bit difficult to line up. I can't remember exactly, but I seem to remember taking about a day on the first go around (with the prototype) aligning the 3 axis so they are square etc.

Not much more difficult than setting up and adjusting a table saw for "true square".

Chris,

Looks like the responses are favorable to doing the article. Thanks for sharing.

I really like Mike's setup - it really looks like a real neat design and if it works and it sure looks that way. Great!

Can't wait for the article (more powerful computer than in my junk bin and all! lol)

Is the X-Y a comercial, ready to go or homemade setup?

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 5:59 PM

As I mentioned to another fellow, I think a manual type machine would either preceed or follow the CNC router projects. A manual version would be right up your alley if I understand your question correctly.

Chris

Chris, I think you will get a lot of positive response, an additional idea would be an X,Y only for cabinet panels, and a big extra would be that once someone got the CNC bug if the Z axis could be added at a later time. I know it would catch my eye.

Dave

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 6:02 PM

Chris DeHut

11-19-2004, 6:10 PM

I know what you mean about the "Fine woodworking concept" and using computerized machinery. However, since advancing through woodworking over the years and going through the "All power" - "No Power" phases, I have come to the point now where it really doesn't matter what tools I use to accomplish a task. Looking back through history and a quick study of the artists and craftsmen of years gone by, one quickly learns that "it is not the tools, but the craftsmen or artist that makes the piece". I look at CNC as just another tool (a very fun one at that) that allows me to explore further into various forms of woodworking.

During what little "off time" I have, I have been experimenting with the CNC router to allow me to do some purly artistic pieces that I would never attemp with any other tools available to me. For me, this is an area I hope to explore deeper and deeper as it is one place where I can express myself in a pure sense and not a commercial sense (projects we do for the magazine are somewhat toned down, especially when compared to some of the stuff I have been working on for fun).

CHris

First, I am FAR from an expert or even very experienced amateur when it come to CNC machining. I just find small (not neccesarily in table size, but in HP, speed, etc.) CNC routers fascinating. Of course there's always the argument about whether it's fine woodworking or automation, but to me it's just a wonderful tool that you can use well or poorly. (A lot like all the other tools I have.)

For those interested, CNC Zone has a DIY forum with lots of people who have built their own woodworking routers, sometimes on ridiculously small budgets. I'm just an occasional lurker there, but they have lots of discussions about where to get parts, including extreme low cost solutions like motors from photo copiers! They also talk about different low end software solutions.

Direct link to another public forum removed by Moderator

Most of these people seem to build from their own plans, and I know you are suggesting supplying complete plans and shopping lists, which will probably be more applealing to most people. It's interesting tho to see what people can do; some have full machine shop capablilties and some build their routers from MDF with a saw and a drill!! Amazingly, in the end each person's machine seems to work.

I'd be very interested in your coverage of this subject.

gary

JayStPeter

11-19-2004, 8:17 PM

In reality, the stepper motors I have on the machine right now are old surplus motors that are actually pretty crude. When I get a little closer to publishing the story, I plan to use some "new" motors. Oddly enough, if you look closely at the drive system of many of the commercial CNC routers, they would be lucky to get +-.010" repeatability or accuracy. I don't know why some of them are designed so crudely.

Chris

Hmmm, I'm not speaking from personal experience, but a friend was telling me of his efforts to DIY CNC his milling machine. Apparently he was having problems with repeatability on a couple of stepper motors he bought. He could go 50 steps in one direction and 50 steps back and was off by more than a couple thous (even though the specs said otherwise). He finally paid for some much more expensive ones and got it within reason. I don't know what price he was paying though.

Did you have any problems with windows? Another friend (who I will visit tomorrow) has a $10K commercial CNC router that he plans to use for a small business (I don't remember the brand, but should be able to say tomorrow). He had lots of problems with windows not allowing his signal handling processes/interrupts to run. Had to do a lot of tweaking his computer. Oddly enough, I suspect the old compaq running in Mikes setup are well suited for the task running old DOS.

At this price point, the only way I could really justify building one (other than just to say I did it, which isn't all bad) is to do things with it that would replace other stuff. For example, have you used it to do dovetails? If so, was it a lot of programming work, or is there a quick way to set it up. Same with mortise and tennons. Does it take lots of effort, or can you just adjust an old program and go to town?
Just trying to get a feel if it replaces things like Leigh DT and FMT jigs and then also adds additional capability, or if those jigs are still the quickest and easiest ways to do non-production work.

Thanks,

Jay

JayStPeter

11-19-2004, 9:05 PM

Chris, I have what I consider is a shop built CNC machine which is rather crude by today's standards, ...

Mike,

That thing is awesome! After re-reading about how you control it I have to say, you are a true geeks geek. BTW, that's a serious compliment coming from me ;)
The stuff you've made with it looks great also.
One of the CNC mills at a place I used to work was also suffering from parts issues for the computers. They used one of the old school hard drives also. Getting the company to agree to bid on ebay auctions to get some spares was pretty funny itself. The boss finally just got an account. Then he kept getting sniped.

Jay

Keith Outten

11-19-2004, 11:28 PM

I believe that the use of computers in workshops will soon be more wide spread. Note that I said workshops, this includes woodworking, metalworking and any other medium that is commonly being enjoyed by semi-professionals and advanced hobbyists.

This is just an extension of what we experienced since 1980 when computers started to creep into the workplace and eventually homes. In the beginning computers had minimal value in residential homes, the Internet was the driving force that made ownership of a home computer attractive.

Now computers in workshops, the same type of progression is possible. It is a matter of need first then it will spread as need becomes less of an issue. Ultimately the capability of precision machining is the reason behind most power tool improvements. The reason we buy that really big enpensive table saw is that it is a more accurate machine. The quest then involves an increase in accuracy and then the ability to produce more complex projects.

Connecting computers to any tool will become more widespread, from routers to table saws and who knows where it will go. Of course we should never discount that beyond productivity and accuracy is just pure fun and any product that is enjoyable to use or that promotes creativity can be it's own reward.

Costs associated with Computer Controlled Equipment will continue to drop and as the sales grow the really expensive motors that are state-of-the-art now will become more affordable . As sales go toward the top of the charts the cost of turnkey machines will tumble. Remember the $2500.00 286 computer system with rotten graphics and no sound. Consider what 500 bucks will buy today in a new computer system.

Does any of this sound feasible?
Being a new owner of my first CNC machine I can tell you that it is exciting to have this kind of capability in my smalll one-man workshop and I can't imagine that I am any more advanced a woodworker than the average guy or gal. In my case it is opportunity, I have recently had the good fortune of finding work that is proffitable enough to justify a more expensive tool than I would normally consider. If a high quality kit was available that would allow me to build a CNC router I would surely have taken that direction before purchasing a commercial product.

If you are talented and creative I see no reason why you cannot purchase high-end machines and subsidize your income while enjoying yourself as well. Some may even find a very lucrative business is just around the bend. Consider what some of our members have accomplished recently by purchasing laser engravers which are becoming more commonplace in workshops these days.

Nope CNC machines aren't for everyone but they will be more attractive to a larger audience as the price decreases. Bring on the "CNC Kits", if they help promote the technology and help us to gain momentum they will bring us one step closer to good quality home machines.

Mike Kelly

11-20-2004, 11:57 AM

Jay, in southern MD you are not too far from Durham, NC. If you are mildly interested in CNC products, you might go over to ShopBot and spend a day kicking tires. Next April there is a fun filled get-together at the factory.

http://www.shopbottools.com/upcoming.htm

We have a Texas Camp ShopBot again here in February that was very informative last year. The new machine that Keith just got is a serious piece of equipment compared to last years model.

You are right about my old Compaq running DOS. That's all that will fit. Windows was a few years away when this machine came out!

As far as doing away with Leigh jigs etc, I haven't seen anything yet that will do it. That question came up last year and the ShopBot founder said they were still working on it (the idea anyway). Follow the thread above, look at the Texas Camp ShopBot and look at the 3D stars that Ron Brown did. The owners like Keith share a lot of ideas and information on their forum also if you are interested.

Bill Palumbo from New Jersey did this Lithophane for me in plastic on his ShopBot. I sent him a picture of my daughter and granddaughter, he scanned it and did a 3D lithophane for me out of white translucent plastic. The result with a light behind it shows a 3D image very clearly. Without the light it is just a gobledegook carving. Just another capability of the machine.

These things pay for themselves by creating signage, doing cabinetwork, or other 3D/2D architectural things.

Charles McKinley

11-20-2004, 9:26 PM

Hi Chris,

Yes I would be interested. my question is learning how to use it. I have no CAD nor CNC programming experience. What about support when it breaks down? Would the replacement parts be readily available? Where? Whose parts are you using? Semens, Fanuc, other?

I will read the whole post later. I'm sorry if these questions have been answered already.

Dale Thompson

11-20-2004, 10:05 PM

Chris,
In my, "Official Northern Wisconsin Red-Neck Dictionary", CNC is the acronym for "Cut Not Chew". That is our signal to disperse the Beavers.

If a person is in the hobby to make a living, I would guess that CNC has a place. In My shop, it would totally take away the, "Thrill of DEFEAT!". I would much rather make my predictable mistakes on the machines than on the 'puter! If I wanted to watch a "machine" do my work, I would buy a clothes washer and see if it could enhance my social acceptability. :eek: :eek:

You rich guys can HAVE your CNC stuff!! Besides, my fireplace needs to be fed and who could be better at making "firewood" than moi? :o :) :)

Dale T.

Chris DeHut

11-22-2004, 8:47 AM

Learning to use CNC is a little more complex than that learning to use any other tool as there is a computer in the loop. But truthfully, if you can read a blue print and have a good understanding of dimensions, then CNC is not that difficult to learn.

Support for the router is part of the design process of the project. The more complex components such as the driver board and software are the most critical issues regarding support. As such, the products I am selecting are from companies that not only provide a good product, but also support them. I won't be using industrial level products (Seimens, Fanuc, etc) as their cost would instantly make them too expensive. However, for motors and drive components, I will be sourcing products from well know industrial supply companies.

From what I have learned, good support for the software aspect is the most critical. Followed by that is the support for the step motor driver board. Both of the products I am testing right now have excellant support in the form of forums.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes I would be interested. my question is learning how to use it. I have no CAD nor CNC programming experience. What about support when it breaks down? Would the replacement parts be readily available? Where? Whose parts are you using? Semens, Fanuc, other?

I will read the whole post later. I'm sorry if these questions have been answered already.

Chris DeHut

11-22-2004, 8:53 AM

It's been a while since i lived in the north woods of Wisconsin, but I think Computer Numerical Control has taken over that definition :-)

If scrap is of importance, CNC can make scrap for you too! It just does it with more precision :D

CNC is not for everyone, but it is one of those tools that can add a whole new dimension and level of enjoyment to woodworking. Many years back, CNC in the metalworking industry was thought of only for "High production runs". While it (CNC) is good for that, it was actually created with the concept of making "One off" parts more efficiently. Oddly enough, even to this day, many believe CNC is only for making lots of parts.

Chris

Chris,
In my, "Official Northern Wisconsin Red-Neck Dictionary", CNC is the acronym for "Cut Not Chew". That is our signal to disperse the Beavers.

If a person is in the hobby to make a living, I would guess that CNC has a place. In My shop, it would totally take away the, "Thrill of DEFEAT!". I would much rather make my predictable mistakes on the machines than on the 'puter! If I wanted to watch a "machine" do my work, I would buy a clothes washer and see if it could enhance my social acceptability. :eek: :eek:

You rich guys can HAVE your CNC stuff!! Besides, my fireplace needs to be fed and who could be better at making "firewood" than moi? :o :) :)

Dale T.

Dale Thompson

11-22-2004, 8:43 PM

It's been a while since i lived in the north woods of Wisconsin, but I think Computer Numerical Control has taken over that definition :-)

If scrap is of importance, CNC can make scrap for you too! It just does it with more precision :D

CNC is not for everyone, but it is one of those tools that can add a whole new dimension and level of enjoyment to woodworking. Many years back, CNC in the metalworking industry was thought of only for "High production runs". While it (CNC) is good for that, it was actually created with the concept of making "One off" parts more efficiently. Oddly enough, even to this day, many believe CNC is only for making lots of parts.

Chris

Chris,
Thanks for taking my comments in the context in which they were intended. :) I know what you are saying in terms of "one of" machining. CNC has given a lot of shops, both large and small, the versatility to switch gears very quickly and respond to the immediate demands of the market. Those demands may involve "one-of-a-kind" items or "mass" production. It has saved a lot of small to medium business operations. It also has assisted in switching business practice from, "This is what we have!" from the manufacturer to, "This is what I want!" from the customer. :cool:

I do, however, take umbrage at your comment that a CNC can make scrap with "more precision" than I can. :mad: I'll have you know that I "sculpt" my scrap to nine decimal positions - even on a BAD day. My Supermike is calibrated by the U.S. Bureau of Standards on an hourly basis. :rolleyes: :D

Where in northern Wisconsin?

Dale T.

Ken Leshner

11-22-2004, 9:58 PM

I'd be real interested in this project. Do you think an attachment which rotated stock, i.e. a CNC lathe, could be developed to work with your design?

Chris DeHut

11-23-2004, 2:02 PM

Oconto is my hometown.

Chris

Chris,
Thanks for taking my comments in the context in which they were intended. :) I know what you are saying in terms of "one of" machining. CNC has given a lot of shops, both large and small, the versatility to switch gears very quickly and respond to the immediate demands of the market. Those demands may involve "one-of-a-kind" items or "mass" production. It has saved a lot of small to medium business operations. It also has assisted in switching business practice from, "This is what we have!" from the manufacturer to, "This is what I want!" from the customer. :cool:

I do, however, take umbrage at your comment that a CNC can make scrap with "more precision" than I can. :mad: I'll have you know that I "sculpt" my scrap to nine decimal positions - even on a BAD day. My Supermike is calibrated by the U.S. Bureau of Standards on an hourly basis. :rolleyes: :D

Where in northern Wisconsin?

Dale T.

Chris DeHut

11-23-2004, 2:07 PM

I am not exactly sure I understand what you are looking for but here goes with two options...

1) a rotary axis can be added to the CNC router machine. This would rotate the work slowly while a router bit cut the shaped on the part.

2) A CNC woodturning lathe would be more appropriate for turning. However, just as is the case with duplicator lathes (mechanical lathes with a template following attachment), the CNC lathe would suffer from providing a GOOD turned finish. The type of turning tools that are most typically used on these machines is a small 'V' shaped scraper. While they certainly work to remove stock and shape the part, the surface finish is often less than desireable. I have been talking with Dick Sing about some other tool shapes that we could experiment with that may work better, but that will take some time to develop.

Chris

I'd be real interested in this project. Do you think an attachment which rotated stock, i.e. a CNC lathe, could be developed to work with your design?

Dale Thompson

11-23-2004, 8:33 PM

Oconto is my hometown.

Chris

Chris,
That's WAY south of me - 13 miles! :)
Dale T.

Jack Coats

07-29-2008, 10:28 AM

I think it could be, but you need to find an old DOS version of a g-code interpreter. Also staying
away from the 'high-cpu' g-codes like ones that make the interpreter do circular interpolation
can make smaller/slower computers still be viable.

Neal Clayton

07-29-2008, 3:14 PM

Chris,

It's a good idea.

I think it would really be better; though, if the computer could be of a lesser grade. That way, maybe we could use up some of the old 486's and Pentium 75's that are still working, but no longer have viable uses. This would be right up the alley of a use for one of the Old Clunkers.

the price of used parts for computers has a sweet spot of 5-7 years, imo. past that and still-working or new parts start getting exponentially more expensive due to rarity.

at least that used to be the case the last time i messed with computers (still cursing paying a guy 100 bucks for a BP6 to replace one i had years ago that died due to the ole exploding capacitor conspiracy in taiwan ;)).

Paul Downes

07-29-2008, 3:57 PM

I'm a little confused about where this might be published. What magazine?? I would definatly be interested. I do have a background in G-code interpolation, NC , CNC, and seat of yer pants old fashioned machining. Incidentaly, I couldn't sleep last night because I couldn't shut the brain off thinking about the possibilities of owning/makeing a CNC router/machine center. My poor head was full of plotting about 8020 rail, ball screws, blocks of aluminum, etc, ad nauseum. This stuff is dangerous!!!:eek: It's almost as bad as getting sucked into the vortex. (Turning, for youse uninformed)
I have a capable resource gleaning/salvage/tech hunting network. I can often find stuff to cobble/invent with. So I bet I could beat the $1700 price tag. (yes my barn is full)

I say PUBLISH IT!!!

Rob Wright

07-29-2008, 5:18 PM

This thread is 4 years old! :eek:

Greg Cuetara

07-29-2008, 10:01 PM

If you guys really want a great machine for under 2k that is homebuilt head on over to cnczone and check out Joe's hybrid machine. It uses 8020 and gives a 4'x4' bed with about 5" of z travel. he also has another machine which someone on this site has been doing a build log on in the cnc forum.

Bruce Page

07-29-2008, 11:25 PM

Chris, I would be interested. I’ve looked at the SB Buddy but I can’t justify the price as a hobbyist. I have some metal working equipment and have made a few tools, this would be fun to build.

Brian Backner

07-30-2008, 8:39 AM

In the four years since this thread was started, there have been many new online sources for information on CNC routers and the like.

One of the best sites is the MechMate CNC Router Forum, started and maintained by a man from South Africa. Gerald started out with one of the near original ShopBots and developed a design for his MechMate based on both his needs as well as what he perceived to be deficiences in the ShopBot. (disclaimer: I own a ShopBot, but have yet to build a MechMate).

See: http://www.mechmate.com/forums/index.php

Even if you don't ever build one, the site is massive with discussions on virtually every single aspect - from control software to the proper size of bolts!

Brian