Clamping Doors

[Clayton West]

Hi Im new here. I have been a contractor for 12years, but about five years ago I took a job in a custom cabinet shop.I fell in love with woodworking.Long story short I quit the job went back to contracting hoping to start my own cabinet shop.Well here I am and its coming together. With a little help from you guys I should be up and going:D.

First problem-In the shop I was trained in we had a lot of high dollar equipment.I must do things the old fashion way.I have client that wants me to make new raised panel doors for her kitchen 51 of them.My concern is making sure the doors come out flat. I have read some about the kbody clamps helping with that? I was hoping you guys could give me some steps on how to produce flat doors?:oI have made a few recently and it hasnt been a real problem,but this is a lot of doors and I want them to be topnotch:cool:

Thanx

[Peter Quinn]

I use the K bodies at home and clamp up on a good flat work table. They are great to work with but not essential. At work I use some ratty old beat down twisted pipe clamps that annoy the BLEEP BLEEPING BLEEPITY BLEEP BLEEP out of me, but they also render flat doors. It starts with square parts and flat stock that is well acclimated. Then a few simple flat standoffs to keep things off the bench and a flat clamping surface do the trick. The key is to use just enough clamping pressure to hold the joint but not enough to bow the rails. K bodies will produce warped doors too if you let them. You may have to adjust for square more rigorously with pipe clamps, but they will work. If its a start up and you have the money get a small pile of parallel clamps and go from there. I think four sets for a one man shop would actually do it, so you always have one going into clamps, one coming out of clamps, and a few in clamps. you only really need 30-45 minutes in clamps, and if you get in a comfortable rhythm you will see how many you really need and can get more.

Another good method for a small shop with a large order is OUTSOURCE. Might hurt your pride at first, but there are companies out there that specialize in doors, make them better than you and me, or at least as good, and often cheaper, and can get you on to more exciting things. There are some great smaller regional firms, and national shippers like Waltzcraft and Conestoga. Worth consideration.

Depends on your position. If you have lots of time to make doors and want to pursue that part of the business, then go for it. If you make your money else where and are taking on doors as part of a larger project but could use that time better elsewhere, then you do have that option.

[Clayton West]

It starts with square parts and flat stock that is well acclimated.

How long should I allow the would to acclimate in my shop before milling up my stock?Also what happens to the doors when they are installed in the house,will they warp because of the new environment?:confused:

Sorry If these seem like dumb questions,but I have learned enough lessons the hard way,better to just ask now.

[Van Huskey]

Peter has lots of good advice especially outsourcing.

I have never found that the quality of the clamps made any real difference to doors staying planar if the stock is properly prepped and machined.

If you are starting your parallel clamp collection I suggest you consider either the Jets or the Jorgensens the Bessy K bodies aren't the best and the price for all of 3 are very similar.

[Joe Shinall]

+1 for the Jets or Besseys. Haven't used the Jergs so I can't tell you much about those. Here are links to the kits you can get that end up saving you a little bit. Look around some and you can sometimes find the Jet set for 129 on sale. That's what I paid for mine and I just saw an email the other day that had them for 129 again but I can't remember who had them.

http://www.amazon.com/Bessey-KRK2450-Fixed-Parallel-Clamp/dp/B001HSO6VI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1273204173&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Jet-70411-Parallel-Clamp-Cabinet/dp/B000F79022/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1273204173&sr=8-1

Of course, if you're doing a big door, the smaller clamps in the set won't help much, but if you have the green to get a couple sets then you're good to go.

[Scott T Smith]

How long should I allow the would to acclimate in my shop before milling up my stock?Also what happens to the doors when they are installed in the house,will they warp because of the new environment?:confused:

Sorry If these seem like dumb questions,but I have learned enough lessons the hard way,better to just ask now.

Clayton, one investment that you should consider is a good moisture meter, because then you will know for sure.

If the stock that you purchase is kiln dried and at 10% or less MC, AND you keep your shop at 40% RH or thereabouts, a couple of weeks in your shop should be just fine. However, if the material has a significantly higher MC%, it will take longer to acclimate.

Most wood suitable for modern interior use needs to have a moisture content of 8%, give or take a couple of percent. This can vary too depending upon the where it is used at and weather or not the location is climate controlled 24/7 or has open windows for a good portion of the year.

[Lee Schierer]

Three thoughts:

1. Make sure your pieces are cut properly is the first step. Properly cut pieces will glue up better than poorly cut pieces.

2. Do your glue ups on a flat surface and check each door as it is glued up to make sure the pieces aren't out of square, racked or cocked in the glue up.

3. And possibly the most important, take your time. Rushing leads to errors. 51 doors will tend to cause you to want to rush the job to get it done, but take your time and check each door before the glue sets.

[Mike Harrison]

It starts with square parts and flat stock that is well acclimated...and a flat table

That is 95% of the job, I've found, as Peter said, the type of clamps doesn't hardly matter, I use light duty bar clamps. The other 5% is taking your time to make sure you are putting everything together properly.

[J.R. Rutter]

I used K-bodies when I started my door business 10 years ago or so. I had a nice flat benchtop that I used for glue-up. Don't bother with more than a pair of clamps per door and tap the rails into place if needed with the clamps half tight. I would give the clamps a slight twist - first one end up, then the other - to make sure that the joint was fully settled and release any tension. Then if the clamped door sits flat on the bench, stand it up on the ends of the clamps and do another one. If it does not lay flat, give it a big twist to counter it and check it over for clamping issues. If need be, shim up the low corners and weight the high corners at the clamp ends and prep more parts while the glue kicks. 15 - 20 min in the clamps is fine if you are careful with the door when removing it. Stack glued doors on a flat surface until they are fully cured (overnight is best) so that their own weight keeps them flat.

As far as moisture meters and wood acclimatization goes, have at it if you want, especially if you have the space and budget to store a large inventory. The reality is that deadlines are often tight and the customer will generally want what you haven't got for species. Careful part allocation using straight grain, flat sections for longer parts will take care of the vast majority of movement issues. Don't try to turn a twisty board into a flat door. Either don't buy it, or tell the dealer that they will be returned for full credit if they pull and ship cussy wood. Grade rules require clear, flat, cuttings. So if it ain't flat, it ain't making the grade...

How are you going to sand doors? A drum sander will help as long as you mill parts accurately and don't have a ton of glue on the surface. There are so many aspects to door production that you will always be chasing the bottleneck solution. But that can be part of the fun if it means that the business is growing.

PS Edit - Just noticed - That blue thing behind me in my picture is a 5-station rotary door clamp. It reminded me that the next step might be a single station door clamp. I had one and used a cheap old beater of a Work-Rite wood welder to zap the joints while it was in the clamp. Maybe keep an eye out for either of these?

[Joe Chritz]

Two big points.

1: Start with decent stock, especially for the stiles and rails. Material that is properly dried, straight in grain and acclimated properly will behave much better. Both while machining and after assembly.

2: A flat surface is an absolute must. It doesn't matter how you get one but you need one. I use two torsion box assembly tables. They are cheap, easy to build and work well.

3: Yellow glue dries a lot faster than you think. By some test it has nearly 80% of its max strength in 20 minutes. If you have enough clamps to clamp three doors you can probably keep up. I just purchased a HI-Pur glue system that has set times from 15-45 seconds. Looks promising but maybe to fast for doors.

4: You need a door rack of some kind. Mine is very simple from two 2x4's with a bunch of dowels. It was made for finishing but I also use it when I am assembling a bunch as well as sanding.

5: Either contract out to a wide belt or get one. A drum sander does very well if you are careful to not take a big bite. Usually one pass on the face and 2-3 on the back and I am sanded and to final thickness. (all my stock comes from the planer at .800)

6: Doors are time consuming but I just can't seem to bring myself to order them. With the cost for good hardwood that I get I still make good money on doing RP doors.

For the record, I can't count either. :D

Joe

[Dennis Lopeman]

How hard do you clamp the piece (stiles and rails)? I'm doing my kitchen - not going into business (yet!?!) - I thought you were supposed to crank down the clamps as hard as you can?

[Dennis Lopeman]

4: You need a door rack of some kind. Mine is very simple from two 2x4's with a bunch of dowels. It was made for finishing but I also use it when I am assembling a bunch as well as sanding.

Joe


Joe - can you explain this one please? Or a picture might be better... :)

TIA

[Joe Chritz]

I only clamp until the gap is closed completely. Generally that is just snug with a tad extra turn. The cope/stick should close with hand pressure easy so all you are really doing is compressing the space balls a little.

Here is a picture of one I stole from the net. Makes storing all the doors much more compact. Especially when finishing. There was a recent thread on just that but basically spray the edges and one side. Set it in the rack, by the time you get all 50 done it is time to flip and repeat.

If you are doing oak doors you can also pin nail the joint with a 23 gauge pin nailer and it is invisible. I can't keep up with three sets of clamps very well so I don't often use a pin nailer.

Joe

[Andrew Joiner]

When I first started my own woodworking business I wanted to do everything myself and buy lots of cool machinery.
After many years I learned that often I made more money buying wood products and reselling them.

If you can buy the doors for a fair price and they come with a warranty to stay flat I would do that.

The real test is make a few doors and time yourself. Then you have an idea what it takes for labor and materials.

[Dennis Lopeman]

Space Balls? OH geez. More research. WTH is a space ball?

"They've gone Plaid!"

whoa - flash back.

And now I know what a "door rack" is! I was thinking it was some clamping contraption. You just need somewhere to put all those doors as you are making them! And what a good idea.

Buying doors and drawer fronts for my kitchen was not what I was looking for. I wanted to DIM (do it myself) to just be able to say that!

I better figure out what space balls are, though.

[Rod Sheridan]

How hard do you clamp the piece (stiles and rails)? I'm doing my kitchen - not going into business (yet!?!) - I thought you were supposed to crank down the clamps as hard as you can?
Tight enough to close the joint.

Not tight enough that everything is warped and the glue is puking out everywhere.

If your parts aren't machined well enough for you to close the joint by hand, they don't fit well enough for assembly.

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Chritz]

Space Balls? OH geez. More research. WTH is a space ball?



It is a rubber ball that goes into the groove to center the panel and keep it from rattling as well as some room to expand.

I get mine from custom service hardware and buy the .26" size.

They may have other names. I'm sure the shop you were at used some kind of them, likely from a gun that popped them in place. Spaceball is a brand name but it is the only kind I have ever used. Buy a bunch, 50 doors will take a few hundred. They aren't need on the rails but I use them anyway to center the panel.

Joe

[Clayton West]

Is There a good way to make a real flat work surface?

[Russell Tribby]

Plus one on the outsourcing. I just did 54 roll-out shelves and that was about 54 too many. 51 raised panel doors is a lot. That's a lot of gluing up just for the panels. Not to mention the time it will take to prep all of that stock.
I have a kitchen coming up and I've looked at Cal Door, Conestoga and Corona. The doors they produce are impressive and considering the time saved the prices are reasonable. I'd give this serious consideration.

[Joe Chritz]

Is There a good way to make a real flat work surface?

Do a search here for torsion box assembly table or a google search.

Very cheap, easy to build and perfectly flat nearly forever.

Joe

[Bob Carreiro]

Make your own!

Buy a tube of silicone and lay a few 1/4" beads on some wax paper. Let them dry completely (a day or 2) then cut them into 1/4" pcs.
I made a bunch and keep them in a baggie for the next set of panels!