Lawsuit - Flesh Sensing Technology

[Prashun Patel]

Remember the guy who won a lawsuit vs Ryobi's parent company because the saw didn't have flesh-sensing technology?

This article really steams me!

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/26939/more-details-on-the-carlos-osorio-tablesaw-lawsuit

The guy was ripping without a GUARD, a SPLITTER, and - get this - a RIP FENCE!

[David Weaver]

Steve Gass "feels vindicated". Where's the hurl icon?

All that was proven was the guy could get himself mangled by bypassing the safety mechanisms on the saw and ramming his hands into the blade.

I wonder how a hand run through sawstop would come out with the brake disabled and all of the safety devices removed.

[Eric DeSilva]

Don't hate lawyers. Hate juries. The article says they asked for $250K, and it was the jury that upped it to $1.5M. The average Joe in the jury box, when asked to render a verdict, is going to instinctively favor the individual over the nameless, faceless corporation, which they will assume to be insured.

I'll worry about this if it ever survives appeal.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Just a friendly warning to everyone - this subject has come up numerous times already and each time the thread gets removed because it becomes volatile.

[Dennis McGarry]

Guess when I get into an accident with my entry level cheapo low end car, which I drive to fast without wipers going, with bald tires in the rain, that doesnt have any of the new fangled safty stuff a volvo does, i can sue the maker since they didnt include it on my car as well.

[Eric DeSilva]

Sloppy Joes, on the other hand...

[Mike Cutler]

Before we all get up in arms. We need to stop and get all of the info. A lawsuit like this one is never this simple, and there may be a lot of legal info not presented in the article. Case in point;

Remember the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit? Where the woman spilled hot coffee in her lap and sued them, and won?
On the surface it seemed like BS. In actuality though, McDonalds had been sued previously, and lost or settled out of court,for similar instances and had numerous complaints filed, in multiple states, and had done nothing to decrease the temp of the coffee. They lost not because of the woman, they lost because of prior issues that had not been addressed, even though they committed to resolving the issues.

[Eric DeSilva]

Remember the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit? Where the woman spilled hot coffee in her lap and sued them, and won?
On the surface it seemed like BS.

It is still BS. People need to take personal responsibility for doing stupid things. Coffee is hot. Hot things burn. That should have been the end of that story.

This, btw, coming from someone who in fact has suffered 2nd degree burns across a large portion of my torso from hot coffee.

[Jim Rimmer]

I can't believe this can of worms has been opened again.

[Rick Prosser]

It is still BS. People need to take personal responsibility for doing stupid things. Coffee is hot. Hot things burn. That should have been the end of that story.

This, btw, coming from someone who in fact has suffered 2nd degree burns across a large portion of my torso from hot coffee.

If I remember right, she suffered 3rd degree burns - and that was part of the reasoning for the decision. No reason to have coffee so much hotter than necessary.

I agree that things sound ridiculous, and it gets very emotional. I will wait until all the facts are in, appeals are made, and then make judgment for myself. (I will try anyway...:p)

[Prashun Patel]

Sorry for opening the worm can! I just read the FWW article published today. Didn't think before posting. Apologies...

[John Schreiber]

What we have here is one jury which was persuaded to do something stupid. The decision will probably be reversed/adjusted on appeal or out of court. I've got to guess that Ryobi/One World really handled this poorly in the court room or else many of the points made here would have been understood by the jury.

Keep in mind that there were 59,999 table saw injuries last year where there was no lawsuit and no reward. The sky is not falling. If the courts are screwed up, it is not in favor of the little guy.

[Eric DeSilva]

If I remember right, she suffered 3rd degree burns

Ouch. I looked up the old articles. They do, in fact, state 3rd degree burns. I'm kind of stunned, however, since I understand 3rd degree burns to mean "charred flesh." My sympathies for the woman have increased substantially. But I still think it was a poorly decided case.

[Prashun Patel]

All this is to say, if you are going to pour scalding coffee on your table saw, make sure the blade guard is in place.

[Jeff Bower]

All this is to say, if you are going to pour scalding coffee on your table saw, make sure the blade guard is in place.

I don't post much here at SMC, but I had to on this one...that there is funny! :D:p

[Dennis McGarry]

Before we all get up in arms. We need to stop and get all of the info. A lawsuit like this one is never this simple, and there may be a lot of legal info not presented in the article. Case in point;

.
There is a site with the complete transcripts of this case. It was a case of He admitted that he had No experience on it, was advised by boss of the hazards and shown how to use it. Admitted that all the warning label were in fact in place and in both lang. He admitted he read them and understood them..

Bottom line, the 250 they were asking might have been good, but no way in you know where, 1.5 mil. And using the argument that they didn't have features that another manufacture has is just BS!

Unless its mandated by OSHA you can not say one is at fault for not following anothers plans, if that is the case, then all saws without them need to be recalled and destroyed. Not going to happen.

Over jealous jury, and that is the problem here,

[Mitchell Andrus]

...Over jealous jury, ...

That's funny on a few levels. See English teacher's thread.
.

[Tom Winship]

I also read this morning, that the plaintiff asked for $250K and was awarded $1.5M.

I was making some round wheels for "whizzers" this week to be donated to charity sale and got my finger too close to the sandpaper on my Rigid spindle sander. Took a little hide.
Think I will go back out and see what warning labels I can remove.

On a comical note, I noticed earler this week that on the oscillating belt sander, there is a note which says "Do not sand on this part of the sander". I thought it was on the left side of the sander. However, it is in three languages and is actually the right side of the belt. Just took the full belt length to get it all said.

[David Weaver]

Somewhere there's a joke in here about wendy's chili.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Oh NOOOOOOO!!

Are you telling me there was a new article on this topic and I missed it?

Say it ain't so, Joe!!!

I am so ashamed.............:(

[Van Huskey]

I would like to say something "potentially" in Mr. Osario's defence. He was hurt at work and thus covered by workers comp, the comp carrier then had subrogation rights to any recovery he made from a third party and if he chose not to pursue any potential third party recovery then the comp carrier (insurance company) would have the right to pursue the claim in his stead. Machine guarding/ safety measure suits prompted by the insurance companies have been on the rise again in recent years. I say this because there has been a lot of venom spewed toward this gentlemen on the internet when the case may very well be he was simply along for the ride. From the injury standpoint he was merely using the tool provided by his employer in the manner his employer prescribed, just trying to make a living.

I think this case is a good example of why I think there should be professional jurors. Maybe not all 6-12 of them (depending on the court) but ones that can sort through the scientific and legal issues and help the jury decide. This however is a mine field since those jurors would likely hold huge individual sway.

In the end from reading the transcripts and all the pleadings etc surrounding this case my conclusion is the Ryobi lawyers were ill-prepared and/or ill equipped to handle this case, but hopefully this will not be the crack in the dam that causes it to burst as the comp carriers and certain manufacturers hope for. The McD case was ill reported and most people made up their minds based on incorrect or non-existent facts, this case however in my opinion was poorly argued and resulted in a incorrect verdict which may well be tempered in the future like the McD's case was, though almost no one seems to know about the final conclusion of the coffee case.

[Eric DeSilva]

On a comical note, I noticed earler this week that on the oscillating belt sander, there is a note which says "Do not sand on this part of the sander".

I had a propane gas grille once that prominently featured a label on the plate where the controls were that said "Caution: Surface Hot When In Use."

[Prashun Patel]

Ever read the warning labels on a ladder?

[Belinda Barfield]

All this is to say, if you are going to pour scalding coffee on your table saw, make sure the blade guard is in place.

Perhaps you should write a letter to company suggesting that all new table saws come equipped with a cup holder and a spill guard. :rolleyes:

[Belinda Barfield]

Ever read the warning labels on a ladder?

I recall reading somewhere that each warning on an item is there because someone has actually done whatever the warning states not to do. (Please DON"T refer to the English teacher thread?)

One of my favorites, "Do not look into laser with remaining eye." :eek:

Another, "Remove from microwave. CAUTION! Contents will be hot." Well, isn't that sort of the point?

[Prashun Patel]

Perhaps you should write a letter to company suggesting that all new table saws come equipped with a cup holder and a spill guard. :rolleyes:

I hear that Festool has a new t-shirt with the following logo:

"Festool users do it with iced coffee."

[Joe Chritz]

Frivolous lawsuits? Welcome to my world. If I had 1 dollar for everyone who said they would sue or have my job I would quit today.

The legal system isn't a black and white product. It is complex and the good that generally comes from it is better than the occasional screwed up decision.

You should see some of the jury decisions in criminal cases. Judges aren't much better, especially ones who allow personal prejudice and politics interfere.

Lets not forget that many complaints and suits are filed because the companies pay the people to go away.

Joe

[Kent A Bathurst]

Perhaps you should write a letter to company suggesting that all new table saws come equipped with a cup holder and a spill guard. :rolleyes:


Thanks a LOT Belinda - Bass Ale wiped off the monitor.:D

I would sign up for the cup holder and spill guard in a heartbeat.

If you want a really good, long-lasting, dark stain on machine surfaces, I can recommend a couple of nice, modestly-priced Australian Shiraz vintages.

Of course, that is one of the risks that comes with building the wine cellar in the basement where the shop is.

(And.....NO - I do NOT DRINK WINE while there is spinning blade/cutter work to do. Not that stupid. I reserve the Shiraz time for adding outlets to my 220v circuits. Why do they have a white wire in there anyway? And, what do those little numbers on the breakers mean - is it something I should be concerned with? :eek:).

[Belinda Barfield]

I hear that Festool has a new t-shirt with the following logo:

"Festool users do it with iced coffee."

Oh you've done it now Shawn, this will kick off the iced coffee versus hot coffee debate! :D


If you want a really good, long-lasting, dark stain on machine surfaces, I can recommend a couple of nice, modestly-priced Australian Shiraz vintages.

For some reason I have yet to figure out, every client I ever sold honed white marble countertops liked to drink some variety of red wine. Question 1, "Will the honed marble get stained?" Answer 1, "yes." Answer 2, "The worst enemies of honed white marble are grape juice and red wine." Question 2, "Well what can you do about that?"

[Mitchell Andrus]

Lets not forget that many complaints and suits are filed because the companies pay the people to go away.

Joe

Yep. My son and I (I owned his car) were sued after a minor fender-bender - my son's fault. Both cars drove away from the accident. It was literally a few bent fenders.

He sued for pain in EVERY joint in his body. EVERY JOINT by name.

He got $32,000.00 from the insurance co. to go away.

You and I pay for this y'know.
.

[Rick Potter]

I just read an article on the lawsuit in Woodshop News. One of the reasons stated for the verdict was that Ryobi had agreed to buy the Sawstop technology back in 2002(?), but there was a mistake in the contract. Mr Gass sent the corrected contract back to Ryobi, but they ignored it and never followed up.

Since they had agreed to use the device, then changed their minds, the jury felt they were at fault.

Sounds like Ryobi shot themselves in the foot on this one.

Rick Potter

[Rich Engelhardt]

The operator seems to have gone out of his way to remove every safety device from the saw that he could.

I can't help but wonder that even if the saw had been equipped with the technology, if that too wouldn't have been disabled?

I guess only time - and a law suit against SS when that happens - will only tell.

[Ken Waag]

What beffudles me still are the people who are some how mad at Stephen Gass. He invented an ingenious device already credited with saving 700 fingers. I has been hailed as one of the industries top innovations. Yes. he wants to make money on his product. I you go to work in the morning or buy a lottery ticket, you want to make money too, so don't set the man out as a villian on that account.

He was not on the jury who made the descision and set he award. He will not be on any commities that make decisions about its mandated use. These matters will be decided by others. He made a revolutionary product and offered it openly to manufacturers (yes for a price. If one takes issue with that, they are saying that they would risk their time and millions of dollars on something and then give it away). Give him credit for his invention, his battles, and let him be rewarded accordingly.

He has not somehow "ruined wood working" as some assert, he has made it safer. Like sealbelts, airbags and other examples we will beneift. He will rightfully make $$ tens of millions, but it will be a small fraction of what it saves in cost and injury. I don't see the basis for any ill-will.
KW

[Larry Edgerton]

I find it disturbing that this subject is not allowed to be discussed here as it will have far reaching consequences for all of us that love woodworking. It will not end with tablesaws once the precident is set. Now as a contractor I am taking a chance ever time I let an employee use my MiniMax slider? My shapers? bandsaws?

I wonder if Keith is courting SawStop..........

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Larry,

This subject has been hashed and rehashed here and historically there are a certain number of posters who have proven they can't discuss this civilly. They only rant their emotional rants. They attack anyone who dare disagree with them. At that point we have closed the threads as it's no longer discussion and nobody is learning anything.

[Rod Sheridan]

I personally think that the SS technology is the single substantial change to the table saw in decades, and it is ingenious, cost effective and effective from an injury prevention aspect.

I have no idea whether it will be adapted to other machines, however if it is as effective on other machines as it is on the table saw, it's only a matter of time and technology.

I'll admit to not owning a SS machine, I now own a slider and they aren't available with the SS technology.

If I owned a business that used table saws, I would be installing them, it's simply due diligence.

I would not wish to be in court stating that one of my employees had a serious accident, and that I had saved $5,000 (or whatever a SS costs) by not purchasing one.

On the home market, perhaps one day you won't be able to purchase a table saw that doesn't have SS technology, or equivalent. That's not a bad thing, you can't buy a saw without a guard and splitter/riving knife either, or in EU without a blade brake.

As another poster indicated, you can't buy a car without seat belts, airbags etc, and I can't ride my bike without an approved helmet.
None of those safety improvements killed automobile or motorcycle use, increased machine safety won't kill wood working, it will just reduce significant accidents.

This last comment is complete conjecture on my part, however I believe that one of the reasons that an SS type of technology was needed for the table saw, is that we, as wood workers had a bad accident record, caused by not using the safety devices that are available.

The enormous number of blade contact type of injuries, seems to indicate that in many accidents, guards weren't present. I know a guard won't prevent every injury, however they prevent most of the injuries.

If we won't police ourselves voluntarily, someone will do it through engineering or legislative efforts.

Regards, Rod.

[Dennis McGarry]

In 2001 there was just over something 93k odd saw related injuries, (taken from http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf) now as that number seems really high, how many times was a saw used that didnt require an er visit?

Its common sense that is lacking I would say 90% of the time in these injuries, not the saw.

As for Gass, he hold the patent on the flesh sensing tech, now when they mandate "flesh sensing" devices be used, its either use his, or make your own, but guess what? Thats right he hold the patent on it. See the catch there?

Oh and he is the one working with the law makers to get this mandated and I would be he would be the professional on committee to write the wording.

yes the SS is a great thing, I think all schools and commercial venues should have it. But mandating that my el cheapo saw in the workshop needs it as well is crossing the line.

You know why SS doesnt make a benchtop table saw or a smaller contractor version? COST vs Return! I would bet dollars to peso's that they have done the math and found that for the price point it needs to sell at 100-400 that there is no way to incorporate the SS tech into it and still hit that price point. But yet even though SS doesnt offer one or a showing proving it can be done he wants it mandated? It would increase his sales 10 fold, and yes he has the right to make a profit, but not at the expensive of the rest of the industry by in theory blocking them out.

I would make it mandatory and at the same time pass registration that takes control of the patent and rel3eases to all, in the name of public safety. I would bet he would have a problem with that, which then proves its dollar driven and not safety driven.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If we won't police ourselves voluntarily, someone will do it through engineering or legislative efforts.



Absolutely. And perhaps "we" are also at fault, because we haven't been insisting on better guards. Can anyone look at the guard/splitter that comes on even the best table saws, and suggest that they represent the very best safety device that can be engineered? Mostly, these are plastic toys, designed knowing that the user will immediately remove it. If we had insisted that high-quality, easy-to-use guards were a priority, perhaps the situation would be different...

[Dan Friedrichs]

Oh and he is the one working with the law makers to get this mandated and I would be he would be the professional on committee to write the wording.

Perhaps, but this is nothing new - every business tries their best through any means possible to exclude competition.


Think about it this way: Do you really think one guy, with his small start-up company, that only makes one type of tool, can successfully "defeat" the likes of huge corporations like Black and Decker, Delta, etc? The sky is not falling...no one is going to come "take" your table saw away from you...relax...etc...

[Dennis McGarry]

He is not just some guy with a small start up. He is who he is.

If you read on him and the actions already taken, he has the pull. Look at the topic of this original thread, they didnt award the settlement based a proven defect, they did it on the fact that the device didnt have his type of system in it. Thats huge.

As for the blade guards, good point, but when does society take responsibility for their own actions? use the tool properly, and with respect the the chance of a injury drops dramatically.

If you disregard the built in safety features and get hurt, I am sorry to say but tough beans! You rolled the dice knowing full well what could happen and crapped out. We do not need more safety in this area, we need better training and education. If the extra safety features are available and someone wants them, so be it then.

I just dont understand the need to mandate it on this level. Please mandate personally responsibility instead. :)


OH and good job everyone on keeping this one civil and on topic, non personal! Its a great discussion! Three pages and not locked yet! See we can do it, personal responsibility at work!

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree completely Dan.

I owned a General 650 which came with the standard splitter mounted guard, although it was a heavy steel and aluminum guard.

It had the same problem that all of those guards have, you can't use it for non through cuts, and it doesn't have dust extraction.

So on a $3,500 saw I had to spend an additional $400 for an Excalibur guard.

If machines came with better guards perhaps more people would use them.

Of course if the guard doesn't work, as the user, we should be responsible enough to purchase or make a suitable guard.

Not using a guard is a mindset that needs to be changed, so lets start by writing to those TV shows where the guards are removed for "illustration purpose".

What a load of BS, I believe that the saw blade is cutting, I don't need to see it.

Regards, Rod.

[Dan Friedrichs]

He is not just some guy with a small start up. He is who he is.
Sure, but if he's smarter than all the lawyers at all the big tool companies...maybe it's time for the other tool companies to get their act together?





As for the blade guards, good point, but when does society take responsibility for their own actions? use the tool properly, and with respect the the chance of a injury drops dramatically.

If you disregard the built in safety features and get hurt, I am sorry to say but tough beans!



True, but would you buy a firearm that had a plastic safety switch that frequently broke, was hard to use, easily removed, and needed to be removed for certain types of rounds? :eek: Point being: we should expect manufacturers to provide safety features that actually provide safety, not just the illusion of safety.

[Michael Trivette]

let me just say
YES i'm going to hell

But I find stupid people that get injured, mamed, or even killed to be funny. EXTREMELY FUNNY

this moron ignored safety and got bit .............FUNNY
Sigfreid and Roy thinking that they could actually contol tigers
................FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY

Steve Erwin (The Croc smootcher) Thinking that swimming with an animal equiped with a Clingon Battle Blade was more importand than walking his daughter down the Isle .............DUMB DUMB DUMB.... lol but FUNNY

I'm sorry I realize that most of you will instantly dislike me for saying this but I belive that if you stand behind a horse then you must want to be kicked.

I know i know ... special place in hell waiting for me and all that , yea I get it.

[David Weaver]

True, but would you buy a firearm that had a plastic safety switch that frequently broke, was hard to use, easily removed, and needed to be removed for certain types of rounds? :eek: Point being: we should expect manufacturers to provide safety features that actually provide safety, not just the illusion of safety.

That's really not an accurate comparison.

If you were going to draw something that involved firearms, you'd have to create a firearm that didn't fire accidentally - ever- or that didn't harm people. The saw didn't break, and he didn't even need to have the guard off for the cuts he was making. He was just an idiot who found a dumb court, and now we're going to get to pay for it.

This lawsuit is more like the lawsuits where people tried to sue gun manufacturers for producing weapons that weren't defective.

What's this guy going to do when he wrecks a car looking backwards or trips down a set of steps because he refuses to grab the guard rail?

[John Coloccia]

Yesterday, my wife's employer banned microwave popcorn. It seems that people keep putting them in the microwave for some ungodly amount of time and cause fires. Actually, I don't think they've had any fire...just some good smoke and charring of popcorn, but that's close enough.

Let me tell you that the situation, at the moment anyway, is absolutely hopeless across the board. Everyone should just save their breath and be happy you're still allowed to buy a chisel without a permit.

[Joe Chritz]

Manufacturer bear some "reasonable" responsibility for safety of their products.

If I manufacture a mower with a guard that is known to fall off and go flying at high speed, I should expect a lawsuit when that happens.

If I manufacture a mower with a guard that works and requires it to be consciously removed and someone gets hurt because it isn't their then sue the person or persons responsible. My liability should end at supplying a product that worked as intended.

People need to bear some of their own responsibility. I can tell you that is becoming a non-existent thing anymore.

High awards are a function of the jury, a jury is a cross section of us. Trust me when I say you never can tell what a jury will do.

Michael, you sound a bit like me. After 15 years in Law Enforcement I have seen people do stupid stuff so many times I've lost count. I have seen people hurt or killed because of design faults (particularly in auto accidents) but the number is very small.


Joe

[Tom Winship]

Perhaps this has already been stated in this lengthy thread, but I've quit worrying about parallel parking accidents. If I hit someone now, I can sue and say "the technology was available".

[Jon Lanier]

Personal responsibility has went out the window, off the lawn, down the street and jumped into the ocean. Only to be swallowed up by a Dork fish.

[Brian Elfert]

How many woodworking businesses have the cash today to purchase all new table saws? I wouldn't be surprised if insurance companies eventually require these saws. Maybe OSHA too.

I bet some woodworking businesses might have to choose between going out of business or switching to something that doesn't require a table saw to make.

An employer of mine years ago started requiring everyone to wear safety glasses when cutting grass with either a push mower or a riding mower. It was a edict from the worker's comp insurer. We could be fired if seen without safety glasses.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Brian Elfert;1432633]How many woodworking businesses have the cash today to purchase all new table saws? I wouldn't be surprised if insurance companies eventually require these saws. Maybe OSHA too.

I bet some woodworking businesses might have to choose between going out of business or switching to something that doesn't require a table saw to make.

An employer of mine years ago started requiring everyone to wear safety glasses when cutting grass with either a push mower or a riding mower. It was a edict from the worker's comp insurer. We could be fired if seen without safety glasses.[/QUOT

Hi Brian, I would expect that reduced insurance premiums would pay for a Saw Stop in short order, after that it's cash in the bank every month.....Regards, Rod.

[John Coloccia]

An employer of mine years ago started requiring everyone to wear safety glasses when cutting grass with either a push mower or a riding mower. It was a edict from the worker's comp insurer. We could be fired if seen without safety glasses.

Actually, I do that too now. I picked up a pebble in the face last year. It shot out of my mower, hit one of my rock walls, and came back like a little missile!

[Brian Elfert]

Hi Brian, I would expect that reduced insurance premiums would pay for a Saw Stop in short order, after that it's cash in the bank every month.....Regards, Rod.

Isn't it just as likely that the insurer will threaten to cancel coverage or greatly increase premiums if a shop doesn't buy a new saw? How often does insurance ever go down in price?

[Rod Sheridan]

Isn't it just as likely that the insurer will threaten to cancel coverage or greatly increase premiums if a shop doesn't buy a new saw? How often does insurance ever go down in price?

Hi Brian, whenever we have provided documented, verifiable proof that the risk has been lowered, our corporate insurer reduces the premium.

I would expect that your insurer would do the same.........Regards, Rod.

[Greg Peterson]

The technology makes sense. From a business perspective, it's better to replace a blade and brake rather than lose an employee either temporarily or permanently.

File it under penny wise, pound foolish.

[Paul Ryan]

I really think it is a sad state that our culture or society, whatever you want to call it, has come to. No one is will to take responsibility for their own actions. It is always someone else that is at fault.

Recently a young high school student around here was killed while at a party. Apparently others at the party though it would be funny to spike his alcoholic drink with anti-freeze. A few minutes after drinking he became sick. While complaining about how he didn't feel good and needed help. No one came to his aid. The young man eventually became unconscious and died while at the party. I don't know the whole circumstances but this is the "jist" I have gotten from the new reports.

I can't understand how stupid people have become. These are young adults that were at this party. Are you telling me none of them could see the danger in their actions. I really think it comes down to parenting. It seems that at least around here most parents will not ever hold their children accountable for their actions. And this continues on to their adult years. Instead these people look to lawyers to absolve them from their actions.

Years ago some friends and I hot wired some golf carts in the middle of the night at the local golf course and went joy riding. This happend on about 3 or 4 occasions. Each time more and more damage was caused to the course and eventually a golf cart was totaled by someone unintentionally hitting a brick retaining wall in the complete darkness. When the names leaked about who was responsible the $%^# hit the fan. When my parents got wind that my name had been in the mix. They immediately assumed I was guilty and didn't believe my denial one bit. As it turned out we received very little punishment from the golf course. It was a $65 fine to about 30 individuals. I always say it was one of the best $65 I ever spent.

But the punishment I received from my parents was much more severe. They made me perform 100 hours of free service at the golf course until I got the use my car back. As a teenager I thought my parents were the dumbest and least understanding people on earth. 19 years latter I realize they weren't so dumb and I learned some valuable lessons from them. I very well could have got off the hook if a lawyer would have been involved due to my very little involvement and lack of evidence other than name droppping. If that would have been the rout my parents would have taken what lesson would I have learned.

I think many of the these people that bring law suites against manufacturers for their own lack of "brains" were never disciplined from their guardians as they grew up and made stupid choices.

[David Gregory]

let me just say
YES i'm going to hell

But I find stupid people that get injured, mamed, or even killed to be funny. EXTREMELY FUNNY

this moron ignored safety and got bit .............FUNNY
Sigfreid and Roy thinking that they could actually contol tigers
................FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY

Steve Erwin (The Croc smootcher) Thinking that swimming with an animal equiped with a Clingon Battle Blade was more importand than walking his daughter down the Isle .............DUMB DUMB DUMB.... lol but FUNNY

I'm sorry I realize that most of you will instantly dislike me for saying this but I belive that if you stand behind a horse then you must want to be kicked.

I know i know ... special place in hell waiting for me and all that , yea I get it.

Well, what I said on another forum about this sawstop thingy got me reamed and beat up so all I'll say here is a quote from someone who's name I cannot recall at the moment. "Stupid oughta hurt." Coffee is "normally" served HOT, saws are "normally" sharp edged and when set to spinning at high speeds, WILL cut you and make you bleed. Any questions?

[Greg Peterson]

Coffee is "normally" served [COLOR=Red]HOT[COLOR=Black]

You may want to inform yourself on the coffee lawsuit to which you refer before mocking it.