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David Fairfield
05-01-2010, 7:34 AM
Was at the art store yesterday, saw some very well made stickers in the scrapbooking section. The label says "laser cut" but I just can't see how it can be done on a laser.

http://www.mrsgrossmans.com/2-2_product-summary.cfm?cid=Laser%20Cut

These stickers are on a backing paper, with no smoke marks and no cutting into the backing. Also, the curved bits are perfectly curved, no tremors as you often see with a laser vector cut.

If that stuff is laser cut, that is some of the finest cutting I've ever seen, and 4 for $1.50 :confused: :eek: :confused:

Anybody know, what's the secret here?

Dave

Joe Hayes
05-01-2010, 8:04 AM
This is posted on their website under the Tour Area.


Wait until you see our LaserWeb! It's the only system of its kind in the United States that can cut our laser-cut stickers. It's a high-tech wonder that shoots 10,000-degree laser beams to make the delicate cuts on Mrs. Grossman's Paper Whisper™ stickers.

Larry Bratton
05-01-2010, 9:14 AM
This is posted on their website under the Tour Area.
I have been working trying to accomplish the same thing. I can achieve decent results by doing the stickers one at a time. I use the center to center function in the Epilog driver. I have difficulty when I try and cut multiples on the same sheet. I would be very interested to see how these folks are doing this. I've tried all kinds of things, including scanning the printed page into Corel and then vectorizing it. I can get close but not as precise as they need to be. It drives me nuts to know that one can buy one of the new plotters that read registration marks that costs a whole lot less than my $25,000 Epilog and make stickers that I can't do.

Mitchell Andrus
05-01-2010, 9:19 AM
Anybody know, what's the secret here?

Dave

I do it all the time in peel-and-stick vinyl - 'cept my cutting doesn't need to be registered to printing on the sheet. I have done that, but it's a PITA and I don't do it often. Visit my site's page on inlays and click "instructions".

missionfurnishings.com/category/Inlaid-furniture-parts.aspx
I just throttle back on the power and avoid cutting through the paper backing. They likely have access to a laser that puts ours to shame though, that's a lot of cutting. how they weed so much out of the design.... I don't know. "laserweb" seems to merge a laser cutter and a web press (printer).

It looks like these patterns are straight out of books available at Boarders.
.

David Fairfield
05-01-2010, 9:37 AM
Sure, I can do something similar, but very slowly, and leaving typical laser "fingerprints"-- a slight cut into the backer, smoke marks, and tremors on the curves at high speed.

But this stuff is perfectly perfect, sharp, clean and crisp. The white material showed absolutely no smoke, it looks more like it was just printed on the backer. And it must be done super fast, because its priced so cheaply.

Amazing!

Dave

Scott Shepherd
05-01-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm not saying this isn't laser cut, but in my opinion, if it is, it's a very special machine built for doing that. What I have found in the past is people love to say things that aren't completely true.

Again, not saying that's the case here, but what if they are die cutting it and then laser cutting the paper backers to length? Then it's a "Laser cut decal".

I'd have to see it to believe it's laser cut, or have someone that has seen it tell me they saw it. My guess is it's die cut.

Martin Boekers
05-01-2010, 10:15 AM
here is an article about a subsidary of Mrs. Grossman, A wine labeling company, that appears to use the same laser.

It states that the laser was made by Lasercraft but is out of production.
This article was written a few years back.

One interesting thing it referred to it as a laser die-cutter, so it sounds like it was specifically designed for what it's doing. It has to be quite fast as stickers are about $1.50.

http://pffc-online.com/label_tape/sticks_flexo_0908/

Maybe someone in San Francisco can take the tour and fill us in.

Marty

Scott Shepherd
05-01-2010, 10:19 AM
Well, there's your answer! 8 feet per minute being laser cut.

I'd hate to have to weed them.

Doug Griffith
05-01-2010, 10:37 AM
At that speed I can't believe it's a gantry style laser. It must be a galvo where the material moves on a conveyor type system.

Larry Bratton
05-01-2010, 10:52 AM
here is an article about a subsidary of Mrs. Grossman, A wine labeling company, that appears to use the same laser.

It states that the laser was made by Lasercraft but is out of production.
This article was written a few years back.

One interesting thing it referred to it as a laser die-cutter, so it sounds like it was specifically designed for what it's doing. It has to be quite fast as stickers are about $1.50.

http://pffc-online.com/label_tape/sticks_flexo_0908/

Maybe someone in San Francisco can take the tour and fill us in.

Marty
This is a very sophisticated operation. Looks like the wine label company and the sticker company are both located in this 110,000 sq ft facility. I suspect given enough resources (money) one could get a highly specialized cutting system made to order.

I just need to make a few stickers from time to time, so I guess I am stuck with doing what I am doing or buying me a Craft Robo for a few bucks.

Dave Johnson29
05-01-2010, 1:53 PM
At that speed I can't believe it's a gantry style laser. It must be a galvo where the material moves on a conveyor type system.

8-ft per minute is 96" per minute, that's 1.6" per second. I could cut that with scissors. :D My 17 year old laser does 16" per second.

Doug Griffith
05-01-2010, 2:02 PM
I'm guessing 8 feet per minute is feed speed through the machine not the cut line. That's typically how printers are defined. The label stock is 6.5" × 14". I'd say it feeds through on the short side of 6.5" moving at a rate of 8 feet per minute.

Viktor Voroncov
05-01-2010, 3:01 PM
I have did tests on GCC Spirit on this kind of paper. Speed of cutting was 60% (max speed is 62 ips, so 60% is 36 ips) with 100% power. Idea was how achieve maximum cutting speed. The main problem was ARGON instead air in air assist :( which cost $.
It was ABSOLUTELY NO burn mark during cutting.

Niklas Bjornestal
05-02-2010, 5:44 AM
I have did tests on GCC Spirit on this kind of paper. Speed of cutting was 60% (max speed is 62 ips, so 60% is 36 ips) with 100% power. Idea was how achieve maximum cutting speed. The main problem was ARGON instead air in air assist :( which cost $.
It was ABSOLUTELY NO burn mark during cutting.
Cant you use CO2 insteadt of Argon? It should be alot cheaper, and should prevent any burning.

Rodne Gold
05-02-2010, 9:24 AM
The laser must be a galvo driven beam type which cuts real fast.

Viktor Voroncov
05-02-2010, 12:09 PM
Customer NOW use CO2, but when we did tests we use argon as we can rent small can for test practically for free :)

Tom Bull
05-02-2010, 9:41 PM
So, are they vaporizing the background instead of weeding?

Andrea Weissenseel
05-02-2010, 11:31 PM
those kind of stickers are usually not weeded. They are just cut, when you pull off the design the leftovers stay on the backing.

Cutting such thin material is pretty fast, logically the more intricate the design get the longer it takes

@Mitchell - are you cutting vinyl with the laser ?

Andrea

Michael Oswald
05-02-2010, 11:53 PM
I also have to agree these are die cut parts as my day job is in the steel rule die industry. A die that might cost $250 can produce several hundred parts per hour, where as a laser can't that touch that for mass production.

Andrea Weissenseel
05-03-2010, 12:01 AM
would they say that they are laser cut if they aren't, and let someone tour their company

Doug Griffith
05-03-2010, 12:59 AM
would they say that they are laser cut if they aren't, and let someone tour their company

Also, die cut is typically thought of as steel rule die. I can't see steel rule die working for such intricate designs. The required bends wouldn't be possible due to the thickness of the blade. Matched steel would be the way to go and the cost of that tool would be nowhere near $250. A small punch fixture alone would be in the area of $500 not counting the wire EDM and material costs. I'd say $3-5k would get a good production tool. But there's still the weeding issue. A laser could do the cut job while on the carrier sheet alleviating the need for weeding.

David Fairfield
05-03-2010, 9:13 AM
Those stickers are fully weeded on the carrier sheet. They are shockingly perfect. .

I wonder if they are made from some sort of gell, the laser heat/light solidifies them in place? :confused:

Viktor Voroncov
05-03-2010, 9:26 AM
Science fiction :) May be they just burn areas which are not necessary? Special material, very precise laser, cutting in CO2 atmosphere?
On one exhibition I saw laser with galvo head installed on flying optic X/Y rails. Works very fast!

Richard Rumancik
05-03-2010, 1:43 PM
If a company is making large quantities of laser die cut materials like greeting cards or sheets of specially shaped stickers they certainly are not going to be using a raster laser engraver. The machine that they use is meant for the industry, and has a price tag to match.

Here is one machine that can do the job:

http://www.adsalecmj.com/Publicity/MarketNews/lang-eng/article-90662/Article.aspx?keyword=Laser

As far as weeding goes, for a sheet of stickers you could weed all of the contiguous background material pretty easily as it could be made to just pull off onto a waste spool as it exits from the lasering section. That is already done with conventional roll-type die cutting. Interior (non-contiguous) weeding could not be done quite so easily but I suppose they could just cut through the paper liner if they wanted and let it fall out.

The term "laser die cutting" is often used in the industry - if interested in what else is out there, search on this term. It may be misleading as there is no die - instead, it eliminates the need for a die.

It is possible to do some low quantity laser die cutting on an an x-y laser engraver, but it would have to be a high-end job where they were willing to pay a preminum. I looked at laser die cutting with my laser several years ago - to cut a logo into 8 1/2" x 11" cardstock for a report cover I was quoting $0.65 each. Which was probably too low. But the printer tactfully suggested that unless I could get it down to about 10%-20% of that it would not fly. I have done a few things in the area since, but it is just too expensive and material handling is problematic. You really need a sheet feeder and some automation for it to be at all practicable.

Mike Mackenzie
05-03-2010, 2:01 PM
I suspect it is what they call FLASH Laser. They used to do this with paper stock without any burn at all. I have a customer who used to have cards made this way 1000 pcs in 10 minutes. Not sure exactly how it works but I believe they have metal stencils that cover the material it then goes into the system and it is like a large flash bulb that obliterates the exposed material.

Andrea Weissenseel
05-11-2010, 3:02 AM
yesterday I read something about a Laser "US P4 from Laserexcel" in a german forum - hm, I was not able to find any information on the web about it though :confused: The owner wrote that it is a CO² laser. They make stencils for the design out of thin copper and the laser rasters onto paper, though the stencil. The beam size though is 10mm x 4mm

Never heard about such a system, but sounds very interestung. With a beam size like this I guess your very fast. Maybe it's something like this here also

Andrea

Dan Hintz
05-11-2010, 6:55 AM
Andrea,

While I'm not familiar with that particular system, it sounds just like the type of system that floods the workspace with a beam through a mask to do cutting... I know some of us have discussed those systems before, though I cannot find a specific thread at the moment. The beam has to be pretty powerful to handle work at any real speed (no 60W systems here!).

Anyway, I believe this is the company you are looking for:
www.laserexcel.com/

Andrea Weissenseel
05-11-2010, 11:07 AM
Dan, I think so too that this is the company but nothing there about selling lasersystems.

I just found out a little more - the system is imported from the US. It's an open system which is contiuously provided with CO² - reminds of an classical printing machine. The laser has 3.000W :rolleyes: the beam is guided through prepared copperstencils, at full power the paper is burned at about 1600 °C

:D Hope my translation makes sense

Andrea

Dan Hintz
05-11-2010, 4:19 PM
They're called flowing gas lasers, and it's pretty much what you need to get those kind of power levels. Considering kW systems start in the US$250k range and go up quickly, I don't think many of us will be affording one of those anytime soon ;)

Andrea Weissenseel
05-12-2010, 2:17 AM
lol that's true - I would have to rub my piggybank for one these also :D