Nasty accident(s)!

[John Shuk]

Last night (tuesday) I was at my furniture design class at one of the State Colleges near here. Things went horribly awry. A girl was ripping some 5/4 hard maple 12" long x 9 1/2" wide. She was kind of standing to the right side of the fence and wasn't using a splitter. There was no over-arm guard on the saw or anti kickback pawls in use either. As she was ripping she became concerned about the cutoff falling down next to the blade and must have shifted the piece away from the fence at an angle into the blade. I was looking in her direction when it happened and just heard a sound like a sword being unsheathed and saw a piece of wood go flying. There was NO way to follow it with the eye. It hit a guy who volunteers and helps the instructor both in the ear muffs and about an inch above his eye. He had a VERY nasty gash about 3 inches long at least. The EMTs came and took him to the hospital. Luckily he didn't seem to have a concussion as well. In the aftermath of the accident I immediately went to what passes as the first aid cabinet and there were some gloves a roll of gauze and some bandages and little more. We used the gauze as a compress and waited for help. DON'T STOP READING HERE. After he was taken away the instructor gave us a short rundown on what happened and let those of us who chose to get back to work. Some of us got back to working and one girl was working on a picture frame she was making. She was in the process of cutting slots for open splines at the corners on the same table saw. She was using a shop made spline jig consisting of a box abot 10" high 8" wide and 6" deep to run along the fence with a sacrificial 45 degree frame nialed to the face to support the piece. The frame she was trying to cut is about 3 FEET wide X about 18 inches high. It was unwieldy to say the least to try to hold this securely to the jig. Well she wound up cutting off part of her finger. This was maybe a 45 minutes after the first accident. This time brown paper towels had to suffice as a compress to stem the bleeding until EMS came. I don't want to sound like a jerk but both of these accidents were VERY preventable. The second one even more so because of the awareness level for safety that SHOULD have been there. I don't say this to be condescending. I just think that safety has got to be taken seriously. Our accidents can affect the rest of our lives. We weren't able to find the missing piece of finger. The guy who got hit with the wood was at least 15 feet away and no in the likely trajectory of the wood but well off to one side. The wood just "frisbeed" toward him. My lesson is that I have to be defensive in the wood shop just like I have to on the road. Please follow the safety guidelines. Usually when I get hurt it is MY fault. Is it really and accident if I was taught better? Thanks for letting me go on about this and BE SAFE!

[John Gregory]

John,


Thanks for sharing this with us. Events like this make us all more aware of what we need to do for safety in our shop. And when taking classes.

[Marc Spagnuolo]

Its amazing to me that a structured class allows people to run the machines in that way. Maybe someone will decide to put a splitter on that saw now.....but probably not. :(

[Dino Makropoulos]

Accident is... when something goes wrong.
Like this. I'm cutting a piece of wood and ...a bee land's on me.
Or Like this. I'm cutting a piece of wood and ...the ceiling falls on me.

I don't want to say what I really thing about the above ""accident's""
Ken. Don't worry.

""""Usually when I get hurt it is MY fault. Is it really and accident if I was taught better?"""""""

John. You may wan't to find another school.With INSTRUCTOR.

[Carole Valentine]

Why on earth would a college sponsored class (or any class for that matter) allow the use of a table saw for ripping without a splitter and guard?????? It seems to me that their primary concern should be safety. I would blame both of those accidents on the person in charge of the shop (I suppose that was the instructor?)

[Rich Konopka]

Somebody is going to say it. So why not me.

SawStop

It might have made a difference.

[John R Lucas]

Carole,
YOu are absolutely right. Both accidents could have been way worse, but they were bad enough. That an institution would allow such accidents to happen makes them culpable in my book. With other innocent people being in the area, makes it even more so. Last year there was a news item about a man who was taking a VIP tour of a commercial shop in Fall River MA and a kickbacked piece of lumber jhit the man standing 15 feet away...and killed him. It really is unforgivable.

[Mark Singer]

It sounds like they need more instruction before they use the table saw and other machinery. The principles of how it operates and the common accidents...are very important to know. A bit scarry!

[John Shuk]

In his defense the instructor taught us to use the splitter. He told us to ALWAYS use the splitter when ripping solid wood. The problem comes in when a bunch of students are using the tools for different operations and are allowed to set up the tools without supervision. The experience levels vary from 0 to "some" and we have too many students in the class to get personal attention.

[Tony Falotico]

I preach constantly how people should accept responsibility for their own actions and not always look to place the blame on others.....

With that said......

If I were taking a class (paying to take a class) to learn how to do something, I would think part of the lesson (and the school's responsibility) would be to teach the proper methods to safely use the equipment necessary to do the task, and make sure that during class activities proper procedures are followed. Sounds to me like there should be a job opening for a Competent Qualified woodworking instructor.

Just my opinion, to be taken as nothing more.

[Tony Falotico]

In his defense the instructor taught us to use the splitter. He told us to ALWAYS use the splitter when ripping solid wood. The problem comes in when a bunch of students are using the tools for different operations and are allowed to set up the tools without supervision. The experience levels vary from 0 to "some" and we have too many students in the class to get personal attention.

Then maybe there should be more instructors and/or less students. Sounds like you as students are getting short-changed by the institutions desire to fill classes (increase tuitions collected) ?

Sorry for getting into this one, but it erks me to no end when profit margin overtakes responsibility to provide a proper product or service. If I were in the class I would drop out immediately and DEMAND a FULL REFUND!

Again, sorry if I'm off base on the cause of the incidents.

[John Shuk]

You aren't off base. I am in the same frame of mind as you. I'm wondering if I should drop too. I'm not really getting what I had hoped to out of the class and this kind of adds to the problem.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Then maybe there should be more instructors and/or less students. Sounds like you as students are getting short-changed by the institutions desire to fill classes (increase tuitions collected) ?

Sorry for getting into this one, but it erks me to no end when profit margin overtakes responsibility to provide a proper product or service. If I were in the class I would drop out immediately and DEMAND a FULL REFUND!

Again, sorry if I'm off base on the cause of the incidents.

Tony. The funny thing is that we all pay for this accident's.
And some of us pay more than just a fair share.
More than 25 year's in the trade with over 100 employees over the year's and ZERO claims on the worker's comp. and liability insurance......I end up paying $50.00 per day before I even go to work.

When I ask my agent why, he throw me the stat's. 85.000 woodworking related accident's per year. I quit the trade at the end because of this.
I just can't enjoy my $50.00 (cup of stupidity coffee) every day.

Don't feel sorry if you're off base on the cause of the accidents.
Be upset because accident's like this effect not just innocent bystander's but
hard working people all over US. And families.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Somebody is going to say it. So why not me.

SawStop

It might have made a difference.

Rick.
They will use it ....after they get the question from someone's lawyer with missing hand or few finger's. Why don't you have the sawstop?
In few year's I don't think you will find one school without the sawstop.

[Rich Konopka]

Rick.
Why don't you have the sawstop?

Hmmm Good Question. I just don't have an answer for it. :D

Yet

Ciao,

[Dino Makropoulos]

Hmmm Good Question. I just don't have an answer for it. :D

Yet

Ciao,
Rick. Do you think the insurance lawyer , the instructor and the director of the school will say that the amputee is stupid? And he deserve's to lose?

You know what I think? With the first case the insurance will require the
sawstop use and may even lower the premium to make it EZ.

I have no affiliation with the sawstop. Actually the tablesaw is my competition. But not my competition in stupidity. ($50.00 cup of cofee) :mad:

[Dale Thompson]

John,
Your post and the number of responses indicates that there is lot of concern over safety in the hobby of woodworking. That is good because WW tools can do a lot of damage in essentially a zero time frame.

The acccidents which you described so eloquently reflect the results of people "extending" their skills beyond their capabilities. People take classes to expand their skills. On the other hand, there is rarely a, "Where are you now?" question attached to the class application. For example; Should a person who has never used a power tool be permitted to attend a class in the building of a Grandfather Clock?? With that said, the question comes up as to the safety devices required for various levels of experience.

Ear plugs are great to protect your hearing except when they prevent you from hearing that fork-lift truck coming around the corner. Eye protection is great except when it fogs up and prevents you from seeing that boom crane swinging in your direction. My PM 3520 Lathe came with a very stout "cage" covering the turning area. I never even installed it. How was I supposed to get at the wood or see what I was doing? The "splitters" and "anti-kickback" devices must be removed from my table saws when I am making cuts which are either very narrow of not completely through the stock such as with dadoes and ploughs. The temptation is VERY strong not to put them back on. I usually yield to temptation.

The question becomes: Can experienced woodworkers get away with fewer "safety devices" than novices? My personal opinion, based on nearly 40 years of relatively accident-free woodworking (a nick here and a nick there is OK - just so the blood doesn't get on the wood :mad: ), is a phrase that I have heard and used many times. "LISTEN TO THE WOOD!". If the wood or the tool starts to complain, you may be a "red-neck" and you are probably in trouble! :) Move aside, duck, shut it down, dive for the bomb shelter, etc. :eek:

I know that this may open up a whole new "can of worms" but I really think that good tools, SHARP tools, properly aligned tools, common sense and experience are the BEST safety features in ANY shop! ;) :)

DANG!! Has anyone seen a shriveled up old left arm flying your way? The last time I looked it was heading west but then, again, the "jet stream" may deflect its trajectory! ;) :D

Dale T.

[Allen Grimes]

First of all, I want to say that these are always my favorite threads, cuz they scare the crap out of me and make me think more carefully when Im in the shop. I'm in the only available ww class in a 3 city radius, dont know past that. My teacher as well as most WWs in this country, (that I've met) don't know about a lot of the dangers of WWing. So I get all my knowledge from either common sense or my favorite tool of all, the internet. Safety is just not taught here.

WWing is basicly taught from master to apprentice. The apprentice is usually only getting training because the WW needs the help and can't afford to give out any money for it. My teacher told me to wear hearing protection because he has hearing problems. He learned all the safety from seeing others have accidents. Nobody ever told him about the dangers of loud tools he learned that the hard way, as many people do here. But I mentioned DC and how DC machines were a big thing in the states and he laughed. I've gotten to the point where I don't need him anymore or his guidence. But I do need his tools so I still go 20 hours a week to class.

Thats why I like these threads so much. Now I finally have something to say.

Dale, my father worked at a chrysler glass plant for thirty years. He had his share of clumsy accidents that were all his fault and he admits it luckily he has all his body parts still connected to his body. But, there was another guy who worked with him. He also worked thirty years and had 2 weeks to go before he could retire he fixxed broken down machines. For thirty years this man went inside dangerous machines fixxed them then came back out. Then one day he routinly went inside a machine, that nobody was supposed to use for another hour or 2 so he didnt bother putting all the safety locks, then a supervisor walked by with another coworker and said "why is that machine off" and told the other guy to go turn it on. This was all over the news. The company Dr.s were saying that the man died on the way to the hospital so they wouldn't have to pay as much to the family, while other Dr.s were saying that it wasn't even possible for the man not to have died instantly.

The point is old or young, new or seasoned, Safety should NEVER be neglected.

[Kevin Arceneaux]

I am a Safety Manager for a Utility that has 3 plants manned 24/7. I go to my plants as often as I can and they NEVER know when I am coming or when our inspector (40+ years power plant experiance) does his monthly meeting and suprise inspections.

We have seen it all, well most of it. We are hard on the guys, but I want them to be able to go home every day with everything still attached where it should be.

For the college to have something like this happen is unexcusable. If they had too many students, they should have either limited the class to a smaller number or had extra instructors or TA's there. It also shows a failure on the instructors part to hammer home SAFETY. There was a failure on the student who removed the guard and splitter to put it back when he/she was done and the student for failing to put the guard back on before he/she used the machine. This can be tied back to the instructors lack of safety awareness instruction to the students.

It drives me nuts when I watch the improvement shows on TV. Most of them, other than Norm whogives a disclaimer that the guards have been removed so the camera can see, NEVER have their guards in place when using table saws. Watch "In A Fix." I have yet to see the guard used on that show. This sets a BAD example for for people who are just starting out and have little or no experiance around machines or a place like this to ask questions.

Safety is ALWAYS first. No two ways about it. I cut a piece of wood once without a guard when I should have put it back. I am so used to having the guard, I was very nervous when making the single cut. After that I told myself, I would take the few minutes needed to put the guard back on before I use the saw.

[Dino Makropoulos]

[QUOTE=Kevin Arceneaux]I am a Safety Manager for a Utility that has 3 plants manned 24/7.

Kevin.
You have he same last name with my friend Jerold from Louisiana.
He was the plant manager in the dimensional factory.
Any relation here? He was in NJ for few year's.
Another time I will tell you what almost happen to him.

[Scott Parks]

The question becomes: Can experienced woodworkers get away with fewer "safety devices" than novices? My personal opinion, based on nearly 40 years of relatively accident-free woodworking (a nick here and a nick there is OK - just so the blood doesn't get on the wood :mad: ), is a phrase that I have heard and used many times. "LISTEN TO THE WOOD!". If the wood or the tool starts to complain, you may be a "red-neck" and you are probably in trouble! :) Move aside, duck, shut it down, dive for the bomb shelter, etc. :eek: .
I couldn't agree more! Knowledge and experience is safety. I'm always hearing of another way to get hurt with tools that I've never thought about. I've been fortunate over the years. However I can think of two TS kickbacks I've encountered in my life. Both times I WAS COMPLACENT. In both cases, I KNEW I was doing a risky cut that I should NOT have attempted. I could "Hear the Wood", and knew it was coming. (the "red-neck" approach). One case was a hurried cut that chucked a 24x24 peice of plywood like a frisbee, and the other was a 3/4 square stick, 6' long that I shot out the driveway and accross the street (50 feet!). (Both no injuries). What have I learned? I will not compromise safety again! Respect the tool. There are many ways to use a table saw safely, unfortunately there probably is not enough instruction on things "not to do". Most techniques taught are "how to do".

Unfortunately this is a subject where we learn from other's mistakes:(

[Craig Colvin]

Thanks for sharing these. As someone who is starting an open shop that will have a lot of new students in it I'm very concerned about creating a safe shop.

One thing that struck me was the first accident was caused by kickback hitting someone across the room. I've only been in a dozen school shops but I've never seen a table saw that was oriented so that kickback would fly across the shop. In all cases the table saw has been oriented so that the kickback would go into a relatively close wall.

[Dana Van Pelt]

Ok...here goes....I read the complete thread several times while getting upset increasingly more each time.

As a woodworking instructor...it is difficult to watch everyone all of the time....doesn't matter if there are three in the class or twenty. If you hire extra helpers to assist every student, then you must raise class prices, and the class no longer appears appealing as a value to the students. You list the rules, you read and ask the students to read the rules, you have them sign the rules stating that they read them and understand them, and still an accident can happen. For 2005 season we have stepped up our safety in the shop even more so. We are putting together a saftey video for each class to view before every entering the shop. We have new classes for the novice in setting up and using equipment safely. We will list on our web page the ASWR's definitions of a beginner, intermediate and advanced woodworker. With this information we are in hopes of determining what classes would be most suitable for the student. Our instructors have always told our students if you don't feel comfortable with a procedure then don't attempt it, ask for help. If a student sees an unsafe act they should be just as responsible to report what looks to be an injury waiting to happen.

And as for the sawstop, it does'nt replace stupidity. I do not want to be forced to buy or use a sawstop. We have too much government as it is. I will probably purchase the sawstops....sounds like a great invention...but I want it to be my decision.

Seems the saw was set up for the cross cut jig and the quard and splitter had been removed, along comes student number two and begins to rip without properly setting up the saw( "just a quick cut and I will be out of your way").

It is my biggest fear that some one will be injured during class or after hours. We have over head quards, quick removeable splitters, push sticks,grippers, and pads, and enforce safety as far as we can. One must be careful and when one is learning:ASK QUESTIONS and don't hesitate to ask about set-ups and follow through, you are here to learn. Safety in your shop is yours reponsiblity. Safety in the shop class room...is yours, and your shop mates and instructors repsonsiblities. Making certain that demonstrations of the proper and safe use of the equipment is mine. Any one can get injuried in a shop from a vetran of woodworking to a spectator, Lets be careful. thanks
Mike from American Sycamore

[Dave Anderson NH]

Kevin, Dino, and Dana have all given great commentary and a pretty good analysis from different viewpoints so I won't repeat them. One major item which John mentioned twice in his report hasn't been addressed however.


As a young Marine in combat in Vietnam, as a student working nights and weekends in a hospital emergency room, and as an adult volunteer firefighter, I never underestimated the importance of having the appropriate first aid items readily at hand. It is unconscionable that a college or university shop not have a completely FULL and regularly inspected First Aid Kit designed for the size of the shop and the potential hazards. My shop first aid kit is an old navy hospital corpsmans unit one bag. I've omitted the usual medicines and the things which are readily available upstairs in the house. Instead I've concentrated on bandaids, eyewash, and military style battle dressings designed for large traumatic wounds which would be expected to bleed profusely. Someone with a separate shop building might want to be more extensive in their choices.

The bottom line in all of this is that there is negligence on the part of someone if the first aid kit isn't inspected and kept filled. Even for a public or private university this is a serious OSHA violation let alone of common sense.

Perhaps someone would like to make a summarized list of all of the shop safety and general shop management rules which were violated. This could be useful for all of us.

[Carole Valentine]

That show drives me nuts as well - to the point that I emailed them about the lack of safety proceedures. As could be expected, I never got a response. Besides the lack of guards, splitters, hearing and eye protection, there are other things that make me cringe. One time a guy was freehanding a sheet of thin plywood through the TS...no fence, no outfeed support, no splitter. Just the other night, one of them was cutting on a 2x4 with a circular saw with one end on the ground, the middle against his thigh and one hand on the other end. I another show, the "homeowner" was helping out and was crosscutting a piece on the CMS and his thumb that was holding the work was about a half inch from the cut. They wave nailers around like water pistols. The whole show makes me cringe to the point whare I can hardly watch it. In addition, I am not even sure their construction methods are methods I care to learn...a lot of it looks pretty shabby to me.

[Betsy Yocum]

Personal responsiblity is the key here. I don't want to be in any shop where the people are not cognizant that other people are around and that their actions WILL impact the next person. I've been in classes with people who take the "it won't happen to me" or the "I know what I'm doing so it's ok" approach and I've seen it backfire on them. When I'm in a class or teaching a class I want my fellow participants to know that I want to go home in one piece and they should to. If they can't operate a machine or have never operated it - they should not touch it until someone teaches them how to do it. Having seen a procedure on a tv show does not mean they know how to do it.

It drives me crazy to see so many of my friends take off safety guards, splitters, etc. just because it slows them down a few seconds on each cut. I'm certain those few seconds do not add up to the amount of time they will loose recovering from an injury.

Long and short - the safety equipment is meant to be used and it should be used - if you are in a class where they are not being used - you should politely ask for your money back and run the other way.

Just my two cents.

Betsy

[Mark J Bachler]

John,

If it's ok with you I'd like to copy this & put it up on the saftey board here at Ready Fixtures where I work.

[Kevin Arceneaux]

Dana - where you teach, you have a greater push for safety and I think that is a good thing.

The part that shows that this class did not was the failure of the who removed the guard and didn't replace it and the one who then used the saw without replacing it. One attack of the dumb's can be expected, but when there are 2 in a row, it tells me that the powers to be need to review their processes concerning safety. There is a problem. Did they complacent because there had been no incidents? Or was there not as much push for safety as there should be? These are incidents - not accidents. There is a big difference.

[Sam Chambers]

Somebody is going to say it. So why not me.

SawStop

It might have made a difference.
Rich, it might have made a difference in the second acident, but not the first. SawStop does nothing to prevent, or even guard against, kickback. Most importantly, the device, while I believe it's a very good idea, does not take the place of common sense and proper safety practices.

Both of these accidents could have - and should have - been prevented byt proper training and supervision. I have to believe the college's risk management folks will demand some changes. Unfortunately, it may mean closing the program, and that'd be a shame.

[Dale Thompson]

. .

Dale, my father worked at a chrysler glass plant for thirty years. He had his share of clumsy accidents that were all his fault and he admits it luckily he has all his body parts still connected to his body. But, there was another guy who worked with him. He also worked thirty years and had 2 weeks to go before he could retire he fixxed broken down machines. For thirty years this man went inside dangerous machines fixxed them then came back out. Then one day he routinly went inside a machine, that nobody was supposed to use for another hour or 2 so he didnt bother putting all the safety locks, then a supervisor walked by with another coworker and said "why is that machine off" and told the other guy to go turn it on. This was all over the news. The company Dr.s were saying that the man died on the way to the hospital so they wouldn't have to pay as much to the family, while other Dr.s were saying that it wasn't even possible for the man not to have died instantly.

The point is old or young, new or seasoned, Safety should NEVER be neglected.

Alan,
I'm with you and the others who STRONGLY advocated the use of safety devices 100%. Like you and several others mentioned, I really like these safety posts. :)

In a sense, Alan, I was trying to make a point for folks newer to the hobby and I knew that I would see a lot of contradictory comments from other experienced folks on this forum. I was finally right on something. :cool: My point was that just because you wear seat belts and have air bags in your car doesn't mean that you can drive 120 mph in the wrong lane of the highway. :eek:

In my previous post, I listed some things that I feel are JUST as important as the safety devices on the machines. Here are some further thoughts; Stay out of the shop when you are very tired or severely distracted by some other personal concerns. Stay out of the shop after an argument with your "significant other". Stay out of the shop right after your favorite dog has just bit you. :( On a whim, don't "show off" your talents without making sure that your equipment is set up correctly. And, FOR THE LOVE OF YOUR APPENDAGES, stay out of the shop after you have "slammed a few" with your "buds". :eek: There is not a safety device (aside from killing the main circuit breaker) in existence which can compensate for the effects of alcohol on your safety. Being retired, I can define "Miller Time" whenever I please - just so it doesn't overlap my shop time. ;)

Lastly, when buying a tool, it is a good idea to check out the ease or difficulty of installing and removing its safety devices. My "second" table saw is a portable made by one of the top-name manufacturers. I like the saw but the blade guard/splitter/anti-kickback pawl assembly is nearly impossible to remove and reinstall. :mad: To me that is a HORRENDOUS design failure! If I were a lawyer, which I'm not, I would consider that to be a litigious oversight on the part of the manufacturer! :D

By the way, I haven't had any responses as to the location of my left arm. I need that arm to put the guards back on my machines. :mad:

Dale T.

[John Shuk]

Dave,
You picked up on what I think disappoints me most about the shop when you mentioned the first aid kit. Or lack there of. In a former life I sold and maintained first aid kits for businesses. I took the job and was good at it because I beleived in the need for workplaces to have FULLY stocked kits. The very first thing I will address with the teacher next week is the need for this. You know I'm not ragging on the instructor but there is some responsibility here. He saw the second girl trying to cut these slots in the way oversized frame and there was even some interaction between them before she got cut. I'm sorry he should have stopped her and helped come up with an alternative. We all have a responsibility to ask when we are unsure. As newbies some people don't know enough to be unsure though. I also realize that maybe when you see somebody doing something dangerous maybe you should say something. Even if you don't think it is your place or if it is uncomfortable.

[Rich Konopka]

Rich, it might have made a difference in the second acident, but not the first. SawStop does nothing to prevent, or even guard against, kickback. Most importantly, the device, while I believe it's a very good idea, does not take the place of common sense and proper safety practices.

Both of these accidents could have - and should have - been prevented byt proper training and supervision. I have to believe the college's risk management folks will demand some changes. Unfortunately, it may mean closing the program, and that'd be a shame. Sam, I thought the riving knife (http://www.sawstop.com/images/additional%20cabinet%20saw%20photos/Cabinet%20Saw%20-%20Interior%2010.jpg) helps in preventing kickback???

I agree it does take common sense and fatigue could have been a factor since the class was at night.

[Tyler Howell]

I hear time and time again "that guard slows down production, It takes only a minute to do the job and 5 to put on all the safety gear". I remind them how slow they will be with one hand, crushed spine or blind.

I have threatened disciplinary actions for anyone injured on the job not using their PPE. I've also stopped work till all procedures are in place.. Ain't nothing to mess with folks. The pile of paper work alone is worth following the rules.
One thing that is important here is that the rules are always changing, and many changes are motivated by law suits.

[Kurt Aebi]

First of all, I have not participated in a Woodworking class since High School back in the early 1980's (I was able to bring in my rifle & shotgun [cased w/o ammunition] while making a gun rack to test fit - so that shows you how long ago that truly was) and we were not allowed to use the Table or Radial Arm Saws - only the instructor was allowed to use those 2 devices. We received instruction on how they were to be opeated and each of us were required to remove and reinstall the guarding and we were responsible for the setups as well - just not the actual cutting operation. The power switches were key operated and teh instructor had the key, so only a few of us would have even been able to turn it on (I would've been able to start the saw, but that was due to a mispent youth - lock-picking 101). I believe I learned more about the Table saw from just doing setups than the actual cutting, the instructor was a semi-retired cabinetmaker and was very good about safety, he had worked in teh woodworking industry for nearly 40 years without ever coming into contact with ANY cutteror blade at all. He said that learning with Neander-tools tought him a thing or 2 about what Sharp is!.

I know this would be aburden to the teacher of the class, but it worked very well for my high school (I believe that they still have this rule in place today - according to my niece anyway - she graduated this past June)

Just my $0.02 do with what you may.

I wish that I could make the statement that our instructor did - 40 years w/o contacting a blade or cutter, but I can't. Safety should NEVER be taken lightly, it's tough to rebound after an accident - but if you never put yourself into that situation you won't have to rebound!

[Keith Christopher]

I've been watching this thread and everyone has good points. The issues here I think are mostly from mistakes. And those mistakes IMHO come from either:


Laziness
Rushing
Lack of experience

As woodworkers we all know we spend 2 hours making jigs that will allow us to cut the perfect cut. And that cut only takes 10 seconds. I always approach my TS with fear and loathing, I have had only one case of kickback and let me tell you it was enough to keep me on the straight and narrow. As far as saw stop I think it's not government but more liability that will promote these in the classrooms. I don't see these as being a bad thing esp around inexperienced students. Does it prevent kickback ? No, but there are other ways to help prevent kickback. In the end education is a must. I would think they college would have a pre-req class for understanding shop tools.

Bottom line (as dale said) nothing can beat experience, but I always am concerned with being "too comfortable" around the tools. And it's not just power tools. in the carvers forum I'm on a guy drove a carving knife through his hand been carving for years. Bottom line it can happen no matter what, just take the time and effort to make sure they don't. it is worth the time I think we all agree. I am personally guilty of not being afraid of the bandsaw, it seems so timid, no kickback. . . I'm right up near the blade so I can see clearly. I keep reminding myself to insure I don't say "oh it's just a quick cut I don't need . . . "

I have been disappointed seeing some of the ways Dmarks uses his table saw on his show on one episode I'm sure he felt the breeze of his blade as his hand pushed the stock through the blade, was a scary scene for me. My daughter (who is 11 ) even commented on how she thought that was dangerous.

[Mike Keating]

I take a woodworking class at our local middle school. The instructor is a local cabinetmaker, a good guy, but a bit lacking in safety. They have a PM66 tablesaw and I really do not like the saw at all (I am not PM bashing, this thing is not set up correctly). This is a major safety concern in my mind, but they do have a very good splitter and a cheap overhead guard that I remove before working on the saw since it is more of a hinderance and I actually feel safer without the damn thing. Do not getme wrong overhead guards are very valuable in terms of safety, but this one is just cheap and worthless.
I watch some people in the class who are trying to get into woodworking and I admire them for that, but some of them have alot to learn. I watch in horror as some people start the TS or SCMS with their fingers or whole hand in the way of the blade, I have stopped people on 3 occassions for this. Each time I get the same response "I got it, man." This will not stop me from stopping them in the future but it also goes to show that in a class of 10 inexperienced people and 1 teacher and numerous machines, accidents will happen.
Another safety concern I have is that the blades are not sharp at all. I watch people using all their might to push wood on the TS or the SCMS. I can only imagine what happens when the kids were there.
I only take the class for the same reason the other experienced woodworkers take it . . . free dedicated shop time and we do not dull our blades. I am thinking about brushing up on my first aid skills now.

Mike Keating

[Scott Parks]

I am personally guilty of not being afraid of the bandsaw, it seems so timid, no kickback. . . I'm right up near the blade so I can see clearly. I keep reminding myself to insure I don't say "oh it's just a quick cut I don't need . . . " .
I grazed my thumb once thinking the same thing... Scared me...


I have been disappointed seeing some of the ways Dmarks uses his table saw on his show on one episode I'm sure he felt the breeze of his blade as his hand pushed the stock through the blade, was a scary scene for me. My daughter (who is 11 ) even commented on how she thought that was dangerous.
Check out the scary photo at the bottom of this page where he routs a dado for the cap screw! My fingers hurt looking at this! http://www.diynet.com/diy/woodworking/article/0,2049,DIY_14433_3308142,00.html