Introduction and "Big Question"

[John Mark Lane]

Hello,

My name is Mark. I just registered. I've been lurking for a while, and this is obviously a very special forum. Happy to be here. I'm a 50 year old suburban (NY) menace, now practicing law, used to be a carpenter and cabinetmarker (had my own business). I never stopped doing woodworking, but am now ramping it up a bit. More below.

I've been reading Matthew Crawford's "Shop Class as Soulcraft", and it hit a nerve. I have an 8 year old daughter and a 5 year old son, both of whom love to do wood or mechanic stuff with me in my garage. It's mostly a mechanic setup, so the wood machines are secondary. I have a space in my basement that is 16 by 10, with a window, that I decided to turn into a small dedicated woodshop. I know it's small. I will make it work.

The plan is to have a bench on one wall with either a miter saw, a RAS, or both. Probably a benchtop 4 inch jointer at one end. A drill press, a band saw, and a lathe, on the end walls. A benchtop disc/belt sander. And a mobile base small table saw in the "middle" (to one side) (I will make the mobile base.) Lunchbox planer to slide under a bench when not in use. Probably a "top" to afix to the table saw setup as an assemble platform. Lots of hand tools. Etc. DC system running the tube into a separate space. I'm having it all rewired for this.

So here's the question. I love old tools. I have a few -- an old (50's) small Delta table saw, old lathe, etc. I love the idea of a shop set up with 30's to 60's era power tools. And I can do it, it will require some additional "futzing" to get everything set up. The quality and feel of old tools, and the "soul" they impart to the work, is meaningful to me.

On the other hand, new tools, with modern safety features and "out of the box" readiness, are also appealing.

I can't decide which direction to take. I would welcome any thoughts on this. And please, I do not mean to start a "safety" debate. I don't mean to foreclose the subject, but just to be clear -- I am keenly aware of safety issues, having badly hurt myself more than once with power tools. I love my children more than life itself, and whatever they do, they will be closely supervised at all times and made very much aware of safety. Indeed, sometimes I think the older tools without blade guards and so forth teach us more about the meaning of caution and responsibility.

But that aside, really, there are a lot of other "considerations" here. For example, the old tools require some attention to the tool. The newer ones less so. The old ones convey history, the new ones not, etc. And it's a matter of the aesthetic of the shop, and the context of what we will do there.

Any ideas, guys?

Thanks (and sorry for the long first post),

Mark

[Randal Stevenson]

Hello,

But that aside, really, there are a lot of other "considerations" here. For example, the old tools require some attention to the tool. The newer ones less so.
Any ideas, guys?

Thanks (and sorry for the long first post),

Mark

I personally believe that statement to be wrong. The old tools and the new tools should both receive full attention, when blades are involved. (EVEN Sawstop, as kickback is still a major factor).

You also have other options you could look at, that might be more kid friendly, such as the EZ Smart, or Festool, etc. Type tracksaws. These would keep their hands above the tool and blades, and they could be setup for different heights (comfort levels for each).

And WELCOME to the forum!:)

[John Mark Lane]

I personally believe that statement to be wrong. The old tools and the new tools should both receive full attention, when blades are involved. (EVEN Sawstop, as kickback is still a major factor).

You also have other options you could look at, that might be more kid friendly, such as the EZ Smart, or Festool, etc. Type tracksaws. These would keep their hands above the tool and blades, and they could be setup for different heights (comfort levels for each).

And WELCOME to the forum!:)


Thanks.

To be clear, I didn't mean more attention to the tool during use. I totally agree, a full and healthy respect for a moving blade (or a still one) is always the top priority of anyone working with tools. What I meant was more attention to maintenance and tuning. Just FYI.

I'll look at the things you mentioned. Never heard of any of them.

Mark

[John Schreiber]

I'm sure you will get many responses and they are all legitimate, but I'll give you my thoughts. You are clearly aware of and value the process of working wood. For me, the pleasure of that process is more important than what I create. It's strongest when I'm doing work with my own muscle power instead of processing wood with machines.

I think you should look into hand tool skills. There's nothing more satisfying to me than using a hand plane to make a perfect surface. Cutting to a line with a handsaw can be sublime. Hand tools also raise a lot less dust, are generally safer, take up less space, and certainly quieter. They require a different kind of skill on the part of the user, not to say more skill, but a greater awareness of what is happening where the edge meets the wood.

That being said, I sometimes use a drill press, a planer, and a guided circular saw because they save me a lot of time. There's a lot to be said for power tools in terms of saving time and effort on repetitive tasks.

Still, doing quiet work using my own muscles is the most satisfying. It's also great for kids.

[William Duffer]

Welcome to the forum.
Most tool either old or new are just as dangerous. The key to any tool is knowing their inherent dangers and making sure you follow their safety precautions and using personal safety devices. Keeping the tools clean and maintained are the key. You can always look for aftermarket or alternative safety features for the older tools. Most woodworkers covet older tools. So I say stay with the older machines as long as the still function properly and than buy new as needed.

[Neil Brooks]

Worry not, Mark.

I knew what you meant about old tools ;)

[Brian Kincaid]

If I were going completely for the 'spirit' of it I would go with:
-old iron planer
-old iron jointer
-old iron band saw
-old iron lathe? (I'm not a turner, just guessing here)
-cyclone dust collection
-hand crafted workbench and non-corded hand tools for all other functions
I like the idea of this very much. Jointer/Planer for dimensioning lumber and band saw for its high utility. Lathe for whatever it is you guys love these things for. Dust collector to keep the air clean as well as the rest of the shop. Everything else left to the woodworker and his toolbox.

I guess it would help to know if you are interested in building furniture or cabinets as that makes a big difference on the tools you will need.

Personally I build for enjoyment and function so I have a pretty full shop in a space a little larger than yours. You won't find a table saw in my shop though. I converted to a track saw system for better space utilization and safety. I also gained better dust collection and precision.

By the way welcome to the creek. Look into contributing. It will help keep this community going.

-Brian

[Vic Damone]

Most of my tools were handed down from my father. I had great enjoyment in restoring many of them. Some years ago life happened and I decided to sell most of those tools. While some did their job as intended I was amazed at how much better some of my newer tools preformed. I kept a 50's 14" bandsaw and even after a good going through it's limitations are apparent when using a modern version with more power and well designed blade guides.

I agree with most of Brian's list. I would love to have a large old jointer. All of my powered portable hand tool such as drills, sanders have been out classed by new replacements. Dust collection is another factor often overlooked in older machines. In general and with exceptions I lean towards newer tools.

Two newer tools that stand out for me are the not so new Incra LS table saw fence system which can be installed on an old saw and almost any drum sander. Mine has replaced the thickness planer and along with dust collection has made life a little healthier.

[Don Morris]

You've obviously got enough experience to have a healthy respect for the inherent dangers of the many aspects wwing. And enough smarts to get through Law School...let your own judgement be your guide. I use both old school for some things...using some inherited tools I cherish and newer tools that have that "newer safety factor idea" you mentioned. I don't see why you have to swing exclusively one way or the other.

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks for the responses, very much appreciated.

I do like the idea of focusing on hand tools, and I hadn't really thought of it quite like that. Learn to walk first, then learn to run. Maybe walking is a more pleasant activity. I do plan to have lots of hand tools in the shop, but I like the idea of focusing on them. The truth is, though, milling up the wood to get it to nice workable sizes and shapes is best done (by me) with machines. And there are a lot of things that are just too time-consuming without them.

FWIW, what we plan to make -- at first simple projects. Boxes, birdhouses, toys, decorative pieces, small tables etc. I do want to do some kitchen cabinets for myself, so having dado and sheet cutting capabities is important (although I am considering getting a TS like the Bosch on wheels and just use it in the driveway for large pieces). Mostly small stuff. But I have always been a table-saw-centric person. A table saw has always been the center of all my shops and the focal point of my work (which has never been very fancy). I've always wanted a Unisaw, but I don't think this small space is right for that.

I appreciate the comment about replacing old with new tools, and being impressed with the improvements. That's kind of what I was getting at. It's a blank slate for me right now, and I have the budget. I could buy a whole shop of brand new tools right now, all at once, and be working with wood right away. Or I could slowly work in older pieces as I get them functional. Older tools are beautiful in themselves, and a joy to work with, but they often have limitations and quirks. How much is that worth, compared to the advanced utility (and safety, and DC capabilities) of newer tools? That's really what I'm wrestling with....

Mark

[Chris Tsutsui]

I don't know if money plays as another factor, but I would want to get the latest and greatest technology if cost were not an object. However sometimes the latest and greatest doesn't compare to the tried and true tools/machines, so thats where some research comes into play.

Craigslist is my friend, and sometimes I find a deal good enough to change any previous bias or preference I previously had. :)

Your shop may end up looking like a mish mash of brands and eras if you go that route, but if you justify each tool with functionality and value, then you can focus more on shop function than shop style.

I suppose I'm just using this as an excuse for why my shop looks like a pawn shop. :D

[Britt Lifsey]

Here's you 2 more cents worth. At 5 and 8 yrs old, I agree with those that suggest concentrating on hand tools with the kids. HOWEVER, they will likely not have the attention span to spend sufficient time to do everything needed with hand tools. What might work well is for YOU to use your power tools to get the pieces almost ready for assembly and then let them finish them up with hand tools. For example, on a birdhouse, rip the a board long enough for 2 of the sides to proper width and let them cross cut the piece to be the 2 sides. Pre-drill holes for the nails so they can easily nail the parts together. Let them cut the perch from a full length dowel but you pre-drill the hole for it.

This way you can tell mom you need both hand tools AND power tools :)

And, I'm sure you've figured out that their "most funniest" tool is probably going to be a hammer.

[John Mark Lane]

Here's you 2 more cents worth. At 5 and 8 yrs old, I agree with those that suggest concentrating on hand tools with the kids. HOWEVER, they will likely not have the attention span to spend sufficient time to do everything needed with hand tools. What might work well is for YOU to use your power tools to get the pieces almost ready for assembly and then let them finish them up with hand tools. For example, on a birdhouse, rip the a board long enough for 2 of the sides to proper width and let them cross cut the piece to be the 2 sides. Pre-drill holes for the nails so they can easily nail the parts together. Let them cut the perch from a full length dowel but you pre-drill the hole for it.


I think this is probably where I'm headed. So maybe part of what I'm grappling with is -- does "Dad" want to get nice new tools, and not have to spend time tuning them and making them work right...or does Dad love old power tools so much, he'd rather enjoy the beauty of them? And...some of that will come thru to the kids, too. Maybe a couple of older tools to let them learn the beauty of old tools...but modern machines for me to do the basic milling and setup of the projects.



And, I'm sure you've figured out that their "most funniest" tool is probably going to be a hammer.

I can see you've been through this before. :)

[John Coloccia]

re: the original question

I never really thought about it. I have a shop full of power tools and hand tools. A lot of it was purchased new, including the hand tools. I know I can buy an old Stanley plane and fix it up, but I'm now convinced that it will still not be as nice as any of my Veritas or Lie-Neilsen planes. So I tend to buy newer tools.

I'd love to get my hands on an old drill press, though. Maybe an Atlas. Something big and ugly, with exposed belts, made back in the day when someone cared about quill locks, minimal play, etc. No question in my mind, dollar for dollar the old drill presses FAR out perform today's nonsense. I like the old, obnoxious, belt sanders too. Other than that, I think I've gone mostly new because I get a much better tool.

The "vibe" of a shop never really occurred to me. I just want to do the best I can with my space and funds. The vibe will take care of itself.

Welcome to the creek :D

edit: Just noticed where you're from. I grew up in Yonkers, btw, and my parents still live in that same house. Woodworking is still legal in Westchester? At a minimum, there's surely a "Wood Fiber Manipulation County Tax", no? :)

[Peter Quinn]

Hi Mark. Welcome. I have an old (1940's era) Craftsman Dunlop 4" Bench top iron jointer you can have if you are interested in old small tools. I may have a motor that will push it too, the original one went south. You're close enough to make that exchange if you want a small old solid little jointer. It will need the knives sharpened, though I could also arrange to do that and reset them if you would like. Let me know if any interest.

[Jerry Olexa]

You seem to have a passion and connection to the old tools...I respect that and urge you to follow that instinct..It will be satisfying and significant to you later if you follow that road....You can still incorporate the safety devices as needed...go with your heart!

[John Mark Lane]

Hi Mark. Welcome. I have an old (1940's era) Craftsman Dunlop 4" Bench top iron jointer you can have if you are interested in old small tools. I may have a motor that will push it too, the original one went south. You're close enough to make that exchange if you want a small old solid little jointer. It will need the knives sharpened, though I could also arrange to do that and reset them if you would like. Let me know if any interest.

Peter -- that is so kind of you. I think I will take you up on it!! In fact, the thought behind it will add to the beauty of the machine in my shop. I have been looking for a small benchtop jointer (following an old Rockwell on theBay now). I'd be delighted to buy you a drink (or a cup of coffee). Please PM me! I'll drive up whenever it's convenient for you.

Mark

[John Buzzurro]

Welcome to The Creek, Mark. I'm in your neck of the woods - Putnam County. I think you'll like this forum. Lots of friendly, knowledgeable folks.

[Chip Lindley]

Again, welcome to SMC, Mark! I, too, admire old machinery--if it performs as it should and is intact. Tablesaws, jointers and radial arm saws are all pretty simple mechanisms. With few exceptions, old machines are not inherently more dangerous, than their replacements. One exception is dust collection; unknown to older machinery. New machines or hand tools are often NOT GOOD TO GO right out of the box. Some (or much) futzing must be undertaken to align them.

Older machinery sized for a small home shop can often be had for pennies on the dollar, opposed to the price of new. A little Delta 9" tablesaw is quite well made, but usually brings $100 or less on CraigsList. A little Rockwell 10" bandsaw can usually be had inexpensively. Same with a small Delta 6" short-bed jointer.

Not so cut and dried with old planers. They are more involved machines. Be aware that their feed mechanisms may be worn severely and need rebuilding. Availability of parts for any old machine will soon sway you. Restoring an old Parks 12" planer may cost 5 times what a new lunchbox planer would cost you. It all depends on your level of commitment. Restoration of old machines can easily become a full-time endeavor. I doubt this is your aim.

A shop full of vintage machinery can have it's own soul. But, IMO, the pleasure of working with tools, making something of hardwood, which took 100+ years to grow, imparts soul to a piece. I had a white oak log sawed into lumber years ago. The tree grew outside my daughter's bedroom window until a storm wrecked it. That wood is very special to both of us. Regardless of which tool machined it into a blanket chest, my two hands guided every move.