Estate sale Goodness... Disston saw question

[Rick Markham]

I noticed an Estate sale a block down from my house, so I wandered my happy butt down there today... found three saws, for $5.00 each. I saw the Disston immediately and glommed on to all three :D I know I did good, I got a few other inconsequential things, a float, 4 files and whole bunch of wrenches too for 30 bucks. But the Disston saw is by far more than I expected and or hoped for, especially since it is in great condition, and is quite sharp! As near as I can tell it is either a No. 7 or No. 8, it's 26" long, but I can't read through the patina, on the blade to tell. I know the handle for the No. 7 is Beech, and the handle for the No. 8 is Apple. Any clue how I could tell the difference? Of course my next question is what should I do to restore it, I would like to remove the small amount of rust on the blade, and maybe polish it up a bit (is this heresy) I want it to work with, not to look at! I don't think the teeth need resetting, maybe some filing, but it seems quite sharp. How do I tell if it is a Rip saw or a crosscut saw? Anyone care to leverage a guess at the other two saws, especially the one in the middle of the pic. What have all yer dern Neanders dun did to me? :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/002-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/003-3.jpg

[Lowell Smith]

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

This is a great site to poke around.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Nice. I'm not sure about the top saw, but the middle one is, I'm going to guess, a later model Atkins "Reliable" No. 59. You might find a fly fisherman catching a fish and the logo "SUPERIOR" under the patina.

The Disston is indeed a No. 7. I can't see the saw teeth but there appear to be enough of them (7 to 9 TPI?) to be a crosscut. You'll find the number stamped on the saw plate close to the teeth below the medallion. Despite their having been relatively inexpensive and more abundant than most, it's one of my very favorites and I think that once you clean it up, you'll find the same. The taper grinding is enough to notice but not so pronounced that the saw gets scanty in the weight department. I actually like a slightly heavier saw since I'm not building houses with mine ("Let the saw do the work!"). The handle is also very comfortable. Grip it with your last three fingers, and point your index finger down the saw plate--that's how it was designed to be used, and I think it gives a much better sense of control. At any rate, all these subtle little things add up to having a productive, pleasurable, and craftsmanlike sawyering experience. Good find.

[Jim Koepke]

vintagesaws.com has a lot of information in their library section that will help with understanding how to tell the difference between rip and crosscut teeth.

jim

[george wilson]

Beechwood has small brown flecks in it. The old saw you gave a close up of is beechwood,though it is quartered beechwood,and the flecks are better seen on flat sawn. You can still se flecks,though they appear different on quarter sawn wood.

[Andrew Gibson]

Looks Like a great find Rick. Let me know if you want to get them sharpened up. I have sets, some files, and my home made vise. Might be a good time to get thogether and hang out in the shop.

[Rick Markham]

Sounds good Andrew! What do ya'll suggest I use to clean them up? I compared the teeth with a more modern disston saw, and all three are crosscut saws I believe. I will continue to do research though Thanks for the links! I had my suspicions that it was beechwood from the few abrasions in the finish, however, I wasn't sure. I don't believe that I have consciously ever seen applewood. That's why I asked the experts. The No. 7 is definitely my favorite of the three it feels right in the hand and is really well balanced. I was pretty excited to see it, I was kinda bummed earlier, I had gone to another estate sale and the guy that left right before me had made off with a dewalt router, and Incra router fence for like $80 :eek: but I got a nice float there for $1. Needless to say it was all made up for when I found those saws (I was looking for saws, chisels, files, rasps, and hoping for planes too) Not too bad of a day :cool:

[Andrew Gibson]

I had good results with White vinegar and some #3 steel wool.
Mine was covered with Varnish of some sort, looks like your might be as well.

The hardest thing is finding something to submerge the plate in, in order to cover it with vinegar. I ended up just wiping mine down every 15 min or so. It would have been so much easier if I could have let it soak for a few hours.

I bet this will work as well... http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

[Don C Peterson]

One of the best sources for rehabing old saws is Bob Smalser. He's got several posts on the subject.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66090

[Rick Markham]

Sorry Ya'll I had to go out to dinner with the little lady, but before I left I did find out it is indeed the lesser common No.8 with Apple wood handle, when I held it just right in the light there it was... Now I guess I am kinda torn as to what I should do with it, lol anyone have any idea's what a no. 8 in this condition is worth? I would hate to remove all the gunk and grime and then have someone from the antiques roadshow swing by my house and poop in my punchbowl... :eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Rick357/005-1.jpg

[James Davis]

The 8 that you found is the designation of the number of teeth that the saw has not the model number. You will have to do a lot more cleaning to find the model designation on the plate.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Here's the best technique I've come across to clean a saw:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

[Rick Markham]

Thanks guys, I didn't spot the part on that page with the cleaning section! The marking of the number of teeth makes sense, thanks! I'm trying to absorb as much info as possible I must have confused myself.

One thing about removing the handle, I take all the nuts and screws out, and it almost slides off but gets stuck and pivots at the top of the handle (in the back of the mortise for the blade) Any suggestions on how to remove it without breaking the handle? I don't want to use "the Arkansas method" my grandfather taught me growing up ("Force it, if it breaks... it needed replacing anyway!" :rolleyes: No offense to any Arkansans he was one)

[george wilson]

I saw an Atkins saw on Ebay last night. Advertised as DEAN NUTS MINT!!! The blade was thoroughly dark in most places. The handle was the best part,looking like maybe it hadn't been used,but it still had 5 good sized nail punch marks on it that indicated ownership. It was a thumbhole model.

I wish some idiots would learn the meaning of MINT!!!

Another annoyance is the "salesman's sample"bit. This ignoramus had a Swiss style watchmaker's hammer advertised as a salesman's sample. I told him it was a Swiss watch hammer. His reply was "I've never heard of a Swiss watchmaker" !!! Incredible. Asked him if he'd ever heard of Rolex (at least!) Doesn't do much good to educate scammers.

[Rick Markham]

Well George... I don't know what to tell ya... Maybe Ron White said it best "ya can't fix stupid" or I suppose you can't blame a guy for trying. Maybe P.T. Barnum said it best "There's a sucker born every minute!"

I find it especially irritating myself when people misrepresent things, especially intentionally... I saw an Ebay listing today that said: "Mint Vintage Disston Saw model... blah blah" In the picture it still had the "mint" cardboard packaging surrounding the blade with a logo by far no older than maybe ten years :rolleyes:(at the most, I was surprised there wasn't a wal mart price tag on it) Who Knew? I'm vintage! Or older than dirt compared to that saw... The sad thing is someone out there will probably buy it...

[David Gendron]

It is , I think a #7 8ppi, probably made between roughly 1890 and 1920. The #7 are my favorit over all saws, I realy like them... so if you don,t know what to do with it...

[Joe Cunningham]

I just cleaned-up a #7 in about the same shape as yours, though the handle was more yellow than dark brown. I probably committed some sort of tool collector sin by planing and rasping off the yellowed varnish, and then sanding it. Some tung oil (polymerized) and it sure looks snazzy now. The saw plate I went over with 000 steel wool and MS and it got most of the rust off but the majority of the 'vintage' patina is still there.

Other than my first cross-cut sharpening job (which, while in need of work, still cuts through hard maple pretty quick), it will serve me for as long as I do ww'ing. I tried to get a close-up of the etch and "10" for the ppi, but the photos came out bad.

One other thing I found--under the handle, near the top nut, there was either a 6 or 9 stamped in. But right near the heel there is a visible 10. Anyone know why that might be?

149627

149626

[Jim Koepke]

I must have confused myself.

Happens all the time to many of us.

As Edward Murrow once said, "Anyone who isn't totally confused just doesn't understand the situation."

jim

[David Gendron]

Joe, that is a nice saw!

[Dan Carroll]

I have had good luck with using wall paper tubes to soak saws in. They are uselly deep enough and about the right shape.

[Rick Markham]

Joe, that saw is really beautiful!!! Yours is in much better condition than mine, I really need to get the handle off, I think I am going to trace it and make a replacement, out of some Wenge I have (just for fun) Not having much luck getting it off yet, it is somehow stuck in the top of the mortise, it just pivots, like there is a pin in there. LOL

Jim, My memory is pretty exceptional, It's pretty much a photographic memory. However, it doesn't fix the recall part when I learn a whole bunch of very similar facts, thats when things get mixed up for me. Even though I am blessed with a great memory, it still requires review, to improve the recall aspect of it. I know I am not losing my memory, my mind on the other hand is a completely different story :eek:

[Joe Cunningham]

Rick, honestly my saw looked about like yours before I started re-habbing it. A little elbow grease goes a long way. It had paint spots on the handle, and the teeth were all rusty and nasty looking. The saw plate had a ring of 'grunge' around the handle after I got it off (that took a bit of work to clean).

Making a replacement handle would be fun, I can see doing that for my Atkins rip saw, where the handle 'hang' is not quite as nice as this Disston for me.

For sure I am looking forward to seeing your re-hab. No matter what, these are pretty common tools, and so long as it is usable, that is most important.

[Thomas Nye]

I personally have easily owned well over 250 Disston Hand Saws in many different configurations. I sell alot of them on ebay and browse the Disston Institute Site quite frequently. I am selling them off to fund my dream workshop. Nothing too big ( 16x20 size ) but thats another story...... The saw you have is quite nice, I like the older sculpted handles better than the newer blocky style. Though many you find have the top horn broken off from being dropped. Many are close to 100 years old and some much older than that..........The handle on yours is beech. Nearly all the ones I have seen are quartersawn and there are specks that show up. Applewood has grain like Cherry, only its more of a tan than the pinkish cherry............As far as cleaning goes, I spray the blade with WD40 and use either 0000 steel wool or the red fine scotchbrite 7447. If the blade is just darkened and not roughly pitted, it should clean up with the 0000 steel wool nicely. Just take care when going over the blade logo's so as not to remove the acid etch. The scotchbrite works great too, just make sure you go with the grain ( from heel to toe ) for example so you dont leave swirl marks as its more agressive than steel wool. If you saturate the scotchbrite with WD40, it will work just like the 0000 steel wool and will be much quicker. It takes alot of elbow greese, but the end result is always worth it. I just got a Older Disston D-8 Thumbhole, Disston 10" Backsaw and a Disston D-23 that I have to clean up. I can hardly wait............

I just looked and I clean my blades pretty much the same was as http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/f...y/library.html (http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html) Only I use WD40 instead of mineral spirits. And since WD40 is a rust prevenative, I do not use the paste wax............As far as handles go, I leave them original. I take some of my worn scotchbright 7447 and just lightly go over the handle to remove the dirt and grime. I have sold a ton of them and everyone has been very pleased. I have had Many repeat buyers as well.

Every Saw Has A Story To Tell ......

[Rick Markham]

Thanks Thomas! I haven't gotten anytime this weekend to really get a chance to do any work on the saw, I am looking forward to it. Do you have any advice on the best way to get the handle off? It's trapped on at the top of the blade in the mortise, it pivots like there is a retaining pin in there, but I know there isn't one. I don't want to manhandle it and damage the handle. Any suggestions?

[Thomas Nye]

Thanks Thomas! I haven't gotten anytime this weekend to really get a chance to do any work on the saw, I am looking forward to it. Do you have any advice on the best way to get the handle off? It's trapped on at the top of the blade in the mortise, it pivots like there is a retaining pin in there, but I know there isn't one. I don't want to manhandle it and damage the handle. Any suggestions?

I have and have seen many saws with the closed top your talking about on your Disston.... I went to the local flea market and bought a couple old screwdrivers and ground them down with my dremel ( kinda like a gunsmith screwdriver ) to fit the saw nuts perfectly. Since the older ones are made of brass, they will mark up easily. These custom ground screwdrivers work perfectly. I got a wide one for the wide sloted screws and another I ground much thinner for the thin slotted screws. I also bought one that is very wide and I wanna grind it down to make a split nut screwdriver. The only saw I have had so far with split nuts is a ibbotson peace saw. But I think it would nice to have one just incase I come across more. Since I can get the screwdrivers for 25 cents, its cheap way to get a perfect screwdriver for the job. All the saws I buy, I remove the handles to clean thoroughly, so the custom ground screwdrivers are well used and work great. I also got an old scratch awl and flattened the point and use it to softly knock out the saw bolts. Be extra careful when doing this as sometimes the heads of the bolts are recessed into the handle and when tapping them out, you will split/chip the wood a little around it. I have found no way around this other than to be extra careful and observe when doing this...........As for removing the handle itself. Since its enclosed on the top, push it from the bottom to the top. That way your pushing away from the delicate top of the mortise. Sometimes rocking it slightly helps. The closed in top is very thin ( I have seen them 1/16th thick to paper thin ) so you dont have alot of room. There are no stop pins, though it feels like there are. I believe when they installed the saw nuts & bolts, they attached the handles to the blade, then drilled down through the handle, through the blade, and through the other side of the handle. You can tell they did it this way because you always see a burr on the blade and this is what makes it so difficult to get the handles off at times. Plus, I have seen blades where one of the saw nuts is not really holding the blade because it was drilled off a little and there is a half circle in the blade where they missed when drilling. Once you clean the saw, it will slide in much easier. You figure with the saw you have, it looks to be an early 1900's Disston if not older, so you have 100+ years of dirt, grime, oxidation, etc. to build up and actually hold the handle on. Let me know how you make out with it ??......I have 20+ saws I just got and have to clean up, so that will keep me busy the next week or so. But its something I enjoy and look forward to doing.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask as I would be more than happy to help. Either, PM me, email me, or just post here. I am sure other members would be interested and Perhaps it will help them as well.
Enjoy whats left of the weekend !!! :)

[Rick Markham]

Thanks Thomas, I will definitely give it another try, I have been studying for a final I have Monday morning, so no time for tinkering this weekend. (being in my thirties and going back to school, somehow responsibility wins a majority of the time.) The mortise is actually open at the top, and it pivots pretty freely, but I think you "hit the nail on the head" there must definitely be a burr there where it was drilled through trapping the blade in the handle. Hopefully tomorrow afternoon I will get some time to work, on it. Now that I have a good feeling I know what is going on, it will be substantially less frustrating, which means I will be much more patient with it. I'll let ya know how it goes!

[Thomas Nye]

Thanks Thomas, I will definitely give it another try, I have been studying for a final I have Monday morning, so no time for tinkering this weekend. (being in my thirties and going back to school, somehow responsibility wins a majority of the time.) The mortise is actually open at the top, and it pivots pretty freely, but I think you "hit the nail on the head" there must definitely be a burr there where it was drilled through trapping the blade in the handle. Hopefully tomorrow afternoon I will get some time to work, on it. Now that I have a good feeling I know what is going on, it will be substantially less frustrating, which means I will be much more patient with it. I'll let ya know how it goes!

Good Luck on your Final. The plant I work at looks like its going to close down this summer, so I may be going back to school myself....lol.

If you have the open mortise on top of your saw handle, it should remove much easier and its one less thing you have to worry about. Just take the screws out ( carefully so they dont chip the handle ) and pull the handle away from the saw rocking it slowly, it will come off with no problem. Also be careful when you remove th screws as when you drop them, they seem to bounce like a basketball....lol, I know from experience. I do believe the burr I mentioned in the previous post is what holds it on snuggly. I cleaned 4 logging saws this afternoon/evening and removed the handles on all of them ( they all had the burrs ). One had rust under the handle and it was harder to get off than the others, but with a steady light pull and rocking motion, it came off without much trouble. Once you do it, you will get the feel of it. Then once you clean it, it goes on much easier........I finally got to try removing the rust scale with a razor blade. It worked great. Someone on ebay emailed me and said to scrape the blade with a razor blade to remove the scale. I did not have a razor blade and used a utility blade on one. But since the blade is thicker, it did not work too well. Last week, I bought some razor blades and a holder to hold them. Its the scraper that holds the razor blade. I was amazed how well it removed the scale. I went with the grain of the steel and after a couple passes, I rotated the razor blade and did it again. I was able to do the 4 saws with one razor blade. I then sprayed them down with WD40 and used the fine 7447 scotchbrite. Lots of elbow grease later, I wiped them down. Good to go..........I do wanna try the vinegar, but have to get a long flat tub to hold the vinegar and the saw blade. Maybe I will get to try it later this week............Let me know how you make out. Enjoy !