Any thoughts on newer material in hand planes? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Ron Brese

04-29-2010, 7:18 AM

Matt,

As a plane maker I have looked into some alternative materials and quite frankly I just have a hard time getting my head wrapped around putting plastic in an infill plane. I have also looked into some of the stabilized wood products, however the material used in that process is an acrylic and those type finishes just seem to have a cold look to me. Compared to a dense piece of naturally multicolored rosewood....well they just don't compare and really lack the warmth and appeal of these premium woods.

I am however beginning to make planes from more corrosion resistant metals. I am making a new line of planes that comprise of a body made completely from 410 stainless and in the infill planes I'm considering using the 410 stainless steel in lieu of the steel that I am presently utilizing for the soles of those tools.

Of course there are cost factors to consider. The 410 stainless material is typically three times the price of steel, however having a plane body that is much more resistance to rust is a big improvement in my view and is actually an upgrade that is much more worth considering than using some form of alternative material for the infill.

As far as the infill being stable in the metal body, one really only has to consider that the movement that can actually effect the function of the plane would have to occur between the cross pin that is the closest to the bed of the plane and the surface of the bed and in one my tools that dimension is typically about .500. Only the movement that would occur in that much space would have any effect on function and this is thru the end grain section of the infill where very little movement occurs. Of course careful monitoring of the moisture content of infill woods is still very critical.

Hope I answered some of your questions,

Ron Brese

David Weaver

04-29-2010, 10:02 AM

What ron said - it's a pain to find wood but wood is still the nicest.

I like to bowl some, though, and I'd love to have some flamey reactive type material to make plane infills. I'm sure that when you cut a bowling ball apart, it wouldn't look so great.

I put wet cocobolo in an ugly little infill last year, and it still will take shavings of 1/2 thousandth of an inch. My shop is a garage. I wouldn't do that on purpose, but it's what i had at the time and I was just taking a quick shot at making an infill plane to see if I wanted to do it for real.

I'm getting close to being done with my second one, and I have a block of "good" cocobolo that's old and dry that Clint Jones was nice enough to sell to me for less than he should've sold it.

My thoughts on infills after making one, and getting a test infill in the second one (and using it some) and having it ready for the final infill:
* If you always dimension your wood with power tools and you're using the planes for final finish, no problem
* if you dimension wood with planes as well as finish with planes, I wouldn't ditch the stanley planes - sometimes the lighter weight of a stanley plane is an advantage dimensioning wood - you won't wear out as fast. Of course, good quality wooden planes could be substituted.

If you use a lot of softwoods in general, i wouldn't ditch the stanley planes at all.

If paraffin is your friend on bench planes, it's doubly as nice on infills - when the wax wears off the bottom, that extra mass means extra friction.

Anyway, if you have the means, definitely take a look at the new infills. I hope to get to take one of Ron's for a spin sometime, but I haven't crossed paths with one. A friend of mine who usually complains about everything he sees had nothing but good things to say about Ron's planes after trying them in saratoga springs a little over a year ago.

The attached pictures are my second one with the test infills, before I lapped the scuzzy (hammer strikes, etc) out of the sides and cleaned them up. All I have yet to do is add a chamfer to the sides and make the final infills out of cocobolo.

One picture is of the mouth. Not sure why the red dykem shows up on the bevel of the iron - makes it so you can't see the mouth. This one got away from me a little while I was filing - it's about .004". I was kind of hoping to keep it from getting that big until the final infill was in the plane, but it is what it is. It'll be hard to make bad tearout with it.

The whole unit will look miles prettier once the metal is cleaned up completely and tidy infills are put in. Iron and lever cap are courtesy of ron, with a lot of advice from raney nelson since I don't use any power tools except a bench top belt sander to do the curves, and a cordless drill to drill the holes. Lots of inspiration from Karl Holtey's improved A13 design, too, but without a double iron and adjuster - too much complication at my level.

Anyway, infills, yes, definitely - however you come by them, but probably don't plan to throw out the old planes.

Brian Kent

04-29-2010, 10:38 AM

I would not try a newer material in infills. The natural wood is just too wonderful. But Krenov style planes are another matter. You can try a new material in a day in the shop. You could accidentally hit on something good, or at minimum, have a fun conversation piece.

I would enjoy making a Krenov style plane out of Baltic Birch ply stacked side to side, just do see what those layers would look like in the curves. Carbon fiber would look cool. Computer chips smashed down into a block of epoxy. A block of plexiglass reinforced with brass sides. Wired rebar with a dried-leather sole. David Weaver's sliced Bowling Ball painted with Hot Rod Flames.

If one of those ideas work and you get rich off of it, I don't need any royalties, just a footnote in The Autobiography of Matt Lau.

David Weaver

04-29-2010, 10:43 AM

Moulded clear resin with something suspended in the middle would be pretty cool, too - like a stag bettle, computer processor, part of a surgical instrument...whatever you wanted to put in it. Just like the clear bowling balls that have junk stuck in the middle of them.

Matt Benton

04-29-2010, 10:50 AM

David Weaver

04-29-2010, 10:55 AM

I've made one full size smoother from corian (not an infill, 100% corian body), and have milled the parts for a 30" jointer, but haven't had a chance to go any further.

The smoother I made was probably the ugliest plane I've ever seen, but it was both my first plane build and first time to use the material. Corian's weight and stability are ideal for the application, however my primary concern is how well the sole would wear. I get the feeling it would wear more like a softwood than a hardwood, although I have no way to verify this. Maybe a hardwood sole would work...

If I ever get around to finishing the jointer, I'll be sure to post...

Wax it and keep a flat surface nearby to tune it every once in while. You'll be able to tell very quickly how fast it's wearing by how many strokes you have to run it over 220 or 400 grit paper to get the wear out of the mouth area. I'll bet it'll last longer than you think.

If it doesn't, you could always slap a piece of O-1 steel on the bottom of it with screws or epoxy and lap that flat.

Tristan Williams

04-29-2010, 11:55 AM

Philly once made a Krenov-style plane with MDF sides.
Personally I love the idea of user planes made Krenov style with manmade materials. One that I'd like to try is laminate a body from layers of MDF and use a tempered HDF sole - it would be ugly as sin, but dead easy and dirt cheap to make.

Steve Pirrelli

04-29-2010, 12:12 PM

The guy at the Steiner and Sauer site made a Titanium infill I think. Cool stuff, but he didn't like working it.

Dale Sautter

04-29-2010, 12:24 PM

I've been thinking that a carbon-fiber reinforced Krenov plane might be the ticket.

Any thought on this abomination?

Abomination... no, different... yes:

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/images/products/565/zoom_CT17GlamourShot.jpg

The rest of the CT-17 Dual Angle Block Plane is here (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Products/What's+New/+CT-17+Dual+Angle+Block+Plane).

Point is... it's not what you would typically think in your minds eye when you think plane.

Have you ever seen Dragon Plate Carbon Fiber Birch Core (http://www.dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=3)? Unknowingly at the time (10-12 years ago), I made something similar (boomerang) using kevlar & carbon fiber around a very thin baltic birch core. It was lead weighted at the tips, very stiff, and for as long as it lasted (finally absorbed too much impact on landing)... very impressive. My younger brother and I went out to a grade school open field on a weekend to test it. Remember getting over a dozen flights with it, each went quite a bit further than the length of the football field. Afterwards we measured between 120-140 yds must have been the total one way length of the flight. Problem was... when it returned, it was coming in at roughly guessing 10-15 degrees at better than 100 mph. Point is... it's really unbelievably tough stuff, and have thought in the past that if carbon fiber were layered between slices of your sole material, you might be able to make a different kinda composite low-angle sole/bed for a woodie. Who knows... how many times did it take for Edison to get the light bulb...?

Doug Shepard

04-29-2010, 12:45 PM

Personally I think if works for Dyson, it must work for planes. How bout a plane with a bowling ball on the front? The extra mass would help stop any chattering or stuttering. You could steer it into all sorts of tight spots that the back and forth motion of a standard plane just cant manouver.:D:D

Steve knight

04-29-2010, 12:56 PM

Jeff Willard

04-29-2010, 3:21 PM

I'm sure that when you cut a bowling ball apart, it wouldn't look so great.

No, they don't. At least a high preformance ball doesn't. And they're no fun to cut, either. The coverstock is fairly thin, and the core is (typically) ceramic. Did I mention that they're no fun to cut:D? The most efficient way to segment one is to shoot it. .243 works, 30-06 is better. Don't ask me how I know.

Mike Olson

04-29-2010, 3:40 PM

Kevlar, Fiberglass, or Carbon Fiber will not hold up to the abrasive action that the sole of a plane will see. They will start to Fuzz very quickly.

If you want to use these, then you will need something else for the sole.

Jeff Wittrock

04-29-2010, 6:32 PM

I was using a granite tile as a base to flatten the sole of one of my Krenov style wooden planes and I started to wonder..... why don't I just glue a slab of this here granite to the bottom of the plane as a sole instead of trying to flatten the wooden one.... I didn't have the guts to actually do it though.

Rob Fisher

04-29-2010, 7:32 PM

new materials could make a better plane but they would not sell. people want a plane that looks normal. this is why you have not seen new style planes out there. I did some new things for awhile but it caused lost sales too.

What new materials did you use? And did they increase the cost of the plane? Is that the reason for lost sales or did they just not like the nontraditional look? Also do you have pictures of the experimental planes? :)

Rob

Johnny Kleso

04-29-2010, 7:50 PM

I would use Nylon if I was building a plastic plane..

Matt Lau

04-29-2010, 8:37 PM

Wow!
I'm surprised that this got so many responses so fast (and especially from Ron Brese himself)!

I should have really split this up into two threads, since my thoughts on infills include both the Spiers/Norris style and the Krenov plane.

I would not consider using carbon fiber or delrin on a Spiers/Norris style plane, simply because I don't see the benefit over beautiful, luscious wood. However, I would consider lead shot inside the infill or stabilized wood.

For a Krenov plane, I could see the use of carbon reinforcements on the sides (near the sole) as a good thing. It's light, stiff, and doesn't look too ugly. If you really wanted to hide it, you could inlay in on the inside of the side.

For the Krenov, I could also see using an UHMW sole that screws into place. This would be easily replaceable, very lubricated, and probably offer very good damping (if my sample UMHW stuff is any indication).

Ironically, the main reason why I'm hoping to get power tools and set up shop is to make planes for guitar building...and prototyping ergonomic devices. I started with a cheap block plane, went to the Muji, and have gotten more addicted.

-Matt

ps. Brian, no worries. I hope that if I get rich, it's as a dentist...or a designer. I don't see myself making planes for a living, but maybe making a some to fill out my sparse stable of planes.

pps. Ron, your infill planes are absolutely drool-worthy. Do you dovetail them or use your screw/rivets?

Jeff Burks

04-30-2010, 12:24 AM

Konrad Sauer's comments (http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/archive/2008_11_01_archive.html) on making infill planes with Delrin are relevant to this thread.

george wilson

04-30-2010, 1:27 PM

Ron,I don't use stainless unless there is a real need for it. I therefore am not a stainless expert,but I know that 440 stainless is NOT STAINLESS unless it gets hardened. Then,it becomes stainless. I'm not sure if this applies to 410,but you might want to investigate if you haven't. Most counter top/restaurant grade stainless is 300 series. Even it is not proof against stuff like Clorox. My neighbor lady asked me to look at her sink. She had put clorox to soak out a little bowl. Left it in her stainless sink. It ate crystalline holes right through the sink. I was surprised at how big those holes were. up to 1/16".

Personally,the Bridge city "Terminator's" block plane is too far over the top,as are some of his other designs. He thinks TOO EXTREME. It isn't the workmanship (which is excellent) on some of his tools that I don't care for,it's the design work. And that is the failure of MANY an otherwise skilled craftsman. They understand technique,but do not grasp the artistic end of making objects.

I'd not use plastic in a plane,especially slippery stuff like nylon or delrin. Nylon would be easily scratched on the sole,an would delrin. No MDF either. I doubt it has the structural integrity I'd want,and just isn't attractive. Plus,what if water gets on it ? Carbon fiber isn't attractive either. Plus,it is very dangerous stuff to machine. The dust is VERY bad for you. Extremely messy,too. I don't think any of these materials has any "soul" in them.

Hopefully,these opinions don't get anyone's hackles up,but they are valid opinions if you want to do artistic work. If you are making a plane for a scuba diver,that's different :)

David Gendron

04-30-2010, 4:56 PM

George, you must feel good;).... I totaly agree with you, espacialy on the carbon fiber "toxicity".

Ron Brese

04-30-2010, 10:35 PM

George I did quite a bit of research on the 410 stainless alloy and it is a stainless in it's annealed state, however it's hardness and corrosion resistance is enhanced thru heat treating.

I opted for the stainless because of the increased corrosion resistance which is always a plus in hand planes but also because of the surface treatment we call "stainless tweed" on the interior of the sole in this line of tools. Removing rust from this surface of the plane would most probably destroy the surface treatment so stainless made sense in this application.

This alloy is actually not bad to work unless an area work hardens and then it's a total "PIA" which is why many avoid this type of material. Everything about this material is a bit more challenging including the price, however the rewards are nice as well.

Ron Brese

george wilson

04-30-2010, 10:55 PM

I don't care if you agree with carbon fiber toxicity or not, David. Maybe you should educate yourself on it. The dangers of working on carbon fiber are very well known. Have you worked any ? What do you base your opinion on? Emotion?

Just checking with you,Ron,as 440 is not stainless annealed. 410 just means 400 series,but with 10 of carbon,rather than .40.

Jeff Burks

04-30-2010, 11:47 PM

This thread reminds me of previous attempts to use "alternative" materials in tool manufacture.

Tenite II (http://oldtoolheaven.com/bench/buckr.htm)

Permaloid (http://oldtoolheaven.com/bench/deluxe.htm)

Bakelite (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d95page.html)

Dale Sautter

05-01-2010, 12:01 AM

Konrad Sauer's comments (http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/archive/2008_11_01_archive.html) on making infill planes with Delrin are relevant to this thread.

Thanks for the link... neat article! Down at the very bottom he said:

I will not make another coffin plane with Titanium sides again, but... I think there is a place for Titanium in planes. I suspect the college voice will guide me if I pay attention.

...bet it (titanium) would make a fabulous sole material. Hmmm, wonder if it would be best to epoxy it in place... :D

Adam Cherubini

05-01-2010, 9:06 AM

I've been thinking about plastic tools for many years. I was thinking the chief advantage would be that it could be injection molded to save some of the time manufacture of complex shapes. Imagine an injection molded molding plane blank where only the sole needed to be final machined to the desired shape. Or bench plane mold. 18th c saw handle shapes are so complex, I don't think they can be CNC machined. They have to be made by hand, but they could be injection molded.

I've chatted with Rob Lee several times and he informed me that the cost of the molds is prohibitive.

That said, there are several very fine materials that could be conventionally machined in the same ways modern wooden planemakers make their wares. I would choose plastics used for bearing materials such as PAI (poly amide imide).

Adam

Andrew Gibson

05-01-2010, 10:41 AM

I have to say that I have been a little addicted to making tools for the last couple months. I have made a bunch of file and rasp handles (just simple turnings) a couple bow saws (again simple but work really well) and a marking gauge. I need to get started on a straight line and radius cutter. My saws from Mike Wenzloff should be here any time now. Not to mention making these things is a great way to use up all those little scraps in the scrap bin.

I have always wanted to make a few wooden planes I have just never done it.
Rons stainless planes are amazing. I really need to start saving some pennies for one.

My problem with using different materials in tools is that I am a woodworker and have a strong connection with the material. I enjoy grabbing the tools I have made because I made them, but also because they are wooden. I think of them as furniture that I get to enjoy in the shop on a daily basis.

If I were making planes I wold make them heavy, Rons planes fit this bill. I think Steve Knight had shot filled planes as well a while back. I wish I had been able to try one.

I think the biggest problem that a lot of people run into is that in trying to be innovative they forget to be artistic (maybe you can't be both at the same time) art does not have to be practical. I think in woodworking and furniture making we walk a fine line between practicality and artistry. at some point you have to say I don't care how practical it is, I want it to look and feel right... emphasis on feel. As woodworkers we expect our tools to invoke an emotional response when we use and look at them, mechanics don't expect to get excited when they turn a nut with there snap on wrench, but we get all excited when we make a piece of scrap with a plane that we can see through.

Leigh Betsch

05-01-2010, 11:08 AM

I've spent most of my working career in injection molding, (toolmaking , and engineering) and from an engineering perspective I think it would be pretty interesting to see the application of engineered plastics in hand planes. Plastics can be blended and compounded with many fillers to increase mechanical properties, so I think a plastic material could be made that would be much superior to the Nylon, Delrin, Acrylic, and Polycarbonate most people think of when they hear the word plastic.

Having said that, I doubt I would ever want such an animal, too much beauty in the wood that can't be replicated with man made materials. I even cut the plastic handles off my cheap-o chisels and make wood ones cause I like the looks better. In hand tools I believe Wood's for hold'en and Steel's for cutt'en.

george wilson

05-01-2010, 1:58 PM

Leigh,you have to look no further than Crosman's saw handles of corian. I think there's no aesthetic substitute for wood.

John Schreiber

05-01-2010, 4:25 PM

. . . I think in woodworking and furniture making we walk a fine line between practicality and artistry. at some point you have to say I don't care how practical it is, I want it to look and feel right... emphasis on feel. As woodworkers we expect our tools to invoke an emotional response when we use and look at them, mechanics don't expect to get excited when they turn a nut with there snap on wrench, but we get all excited when we make a piece of scrap with a plane that we can see through.
Well said.

george wilson

05-02-2010, 8:56 AM

David,I must have misread your post somehow. I thought you said carbon fiber dust was NOT toxic. Sorry about that. This comes from getting only 4 hours of sleep each night all week. Even if someone could get a block big enough,it would cost a fortune.

Derby Matthews

05-02-2010, 9:41 AM

George, I couldn't agree more. John Economaki Had a tremendous vision and superlative original business model, (he even quotes it in the video in the following link) and has IMHO gone completely off the map in recent years, particularly with this CT-17 offering. Here's a link to an under two minute video with far more one more than a minute of nothing but hype:

http://www.youtube.com/user/BridgeCityMike#p/u/0/W2ni3z61WmA

Apparently John has forgotten or simply not realized that one can simply have two irons for their Bridge City CT-7 (or Stanley / ad infinitum) Low angle block plane and grind one to a 42 degree angle, and the other to a 47 degree angle. Most importantly The basic, ingenious idea John came up with 4 years ago, the modified cap iron that pre-stresses the blade to reduce chatter and improve cutting ease is also conspicuously missing from the this model. This feature alone would have changed my opinon from "why buy it" to "MUST buy it"!

Even as an avid collector and user of many early Bridge City tools in the regular-old metals/ materials we all know, love, and can trust to outlive our kids, I will not plunk down $895.00 for "Terminator" Plane (I really like this name - those movies well describe what John has been doing for years: namely trying to kill BCTW by returning from the future to knock-off his old designs with new alloys. Like in the movies, it doesn't work. I hate to sound like I'm flaming John here. I like him, and greatly respect his earller work.

As to the use of carbon fiber, nylon, plastics in the construction of tools, which we all know are designed to placed under considerable stress, vibration, acid/alkali and other chemical attack (if only by contact with our skin) general,I ask you all remember one simple fact. Elvis Presley's famous shoes (formerly) on display in the Smithsonian are deteriorating at a rate that they already would fall to pieces if worn and used, this despite all attempts by many very smart people to preserve them for posterity. Plastic compounds are FUGITIVE by nature. So my Neanderthal position is use them in anything you want, just don't intend to pass them on to your heirs.

Personally,the Bridge city "Terminator's" block plane is too far over the top,as are some of his other designs. He thinks TOO EXTREME. It isn't the workmanship (which is excellent) on some of his tools that I don't care for,it's the design work. And that is the failure of MANY an otherwise skilled craftsman. They understand technique,but do not grasp the artistic end of making objects.

Hopefully,these opinions don't get anyone's hackles up,but they are valid opinions if you want to do artistic work. If you are making a plane for a scuba diver,that's different :)

george wilson

05-02-2010, 11:52 AM

Never been an Elvis fan. I take it the shoes were plastic ? I once had a pair of Corofam (sp?) shoes back in the 60's. They refused to ever break in.

Fortunately,I left them outside the door,and the neighbor's dog chewed them all up ! Why he wanted to eat Corofam I never knew !

In Williamsburg,the Master shoemaker got in trouble. he was running down the use of Corofam in his shop in front of visitors. The president of the company was in his shop !

We weren't supposed to make any judgements like that in public,of course.

Derby Matthews

05-02-2010, 4:09 PM

Like me! Heh!

Johnny Kleso

05-02-2010, 8:49 PM

I still think Nylon would make a fine old style smoother, many know the name KEVLAR for being bulletproof and is a type of Nylon........ I'll put my Nylon hammer against a wood hammer any day for those that think its not a good choice in the wear and scratching arena..

George,
Whats your choice of a NEW material for hand planes?
Since you seem to think plastic is not a good choice and most metals have all been done like amuminum from Stanleyin the 30s.. Already used is brass, bronze, carbon steel, cast iron and stainless steel, if plastic is not an option what material is your choice for NEW ????

Leigh Betsch

05-02-2010, 10:41 PM

For a "New" material why not try CPM 10V steel coated with TiNi for the base. Heat treat the CPM 10V up to about 60 Rc and then send it out for vapor deposition titanium nitride. Pretty much way over kill but you would never wear it out. Then for the "New" wood how about some of that 50,000 year old ancient Kuari wood being dug out of some swamp somewhere!

Henry Ambrose

05-02-2010, 11:18 PM

Carbon fiber in cured resin will dull your cutting tools about as fast as cutting concrete. Its easy to cut the raw material with scissors but if you're going to cut a composite part you'll need carbide tooling. That said, a couple of layers in a plane blank would sure make it rigid and about as warp free as wood will get.

Matt Lau

05-03-2010, 1:12 AM

Don't get me wrong.

I still really love wood.
I have an old Marples jointer that's warped and a muji that's warped.
While I like using them, I hate worrying about stability in my non-temperature/humidity controlled excuse for a shop.

I was going to laminate the carbon on the inside of the cheeks for a Krenov plane. This is just an adaptation of something commonly done by the newer breed of luthiers, and I found that it adds a huge deal of stiffness for very little weight (I just did this on a barbero inspired negra).

As I mentioned, I don't really have a way to ensure calibrated results right now. I'm waiting until after I build up a shop with power tools and an actual workbench to more easily dimension the wood and steel (yep, I'm wimpy).

However, my first project for the new shop will be to make some planes to fill out my needs: Jack, Scrub, small smoother, larger smoother. While I have the Grizzly copy of the 60 1/2 and #4, I've found that wood is much more comfortable at giving me a smooth cut (probably due to more dampening from the end grain).

I'll be designing the tool to suit the job.

For Jack/Scrub: Krenov style planes. Light, sharp, ready to hog out wood without pulling a muscle.

Probably something light for the core (yellow cedar? spanish cedar? mahoganny? Suggestions welcome), maybe ebony/rosewood for the sides (from fretboard blanks), and I'll be using the UHMW tape (black) for abrasion resistance for the sole. I'll probably inlay the inside of the sides with a tall carbon rod to prevent warping. The carbon should not be too obvious. At worst, it may look like the brass sides of the brass-bottomed Philly Planes.

For the small smoother: Infill plane! I'll probably be largely patterning it after Ron Brese's lust worthy designs...with maybe dovetails. At the moment, I can't justify buying his beautiful work...maybe after I make my mark as a dentist in a couple years.

I'll probably build using rather conventional methods and materials for the infills because...they work...and work well.

After these two planes, I may try making my own styles using acrylic impregnated woods. This may open possibilities to use spalted and otherwise too weak woods for a stable, heavy plane. (if you do this btw, please mention me in the credits :)).

Who knows? I can envision if a Krenovian sired a child with a Spiers.
Damascus soled woodie anyone?

ps. Carbon fiber is a toxic irritant! Be sure to have proper dust collection and a proper respirator when working. It blunts cutting tools in a nasty fashion, but it works fairly well with a dremel cutoff wheel. Since I don't have dust collection, I'd cut it in the backyard, close to the ground, with an improvised splash shield and a respirator.

george wilson

05-03-2010, 7:23 AM

Are Krenov planes SO rubbery flexible that they NEED carbon fiber reinforcement ?

Sorry,I am a stick in the mud,but at the moment I can't think of any plastics I'd rather infill a plane with. Titanium nitride coating is very beautiful,though,looks like gold,and what,somewhere about 80 R.C. ? I had a dial caliper coated with it. Wish they'd coat more tools with it.

David Weaver

05-03-2010, 7:47 AM

I used to be obsessed with plane durability. I wanted a sole on a plane that needed a touch up once a year and would last 300 years....

... but then when I started using the planes seriously, I realized that the only thing that really fungles the sole on them is edge jointing, no matter the wood. For a hobbyist woodworker, any wood that's strong enough to keep the shape of the plane (say cherry or harder) is fine, and as long as the grain is oriented correctly to prevent chipout at the mouth, I don't think anyone is going to turn their planes into something that looks like the old beech planes that have been abused with 1/2" mouths. I'd venture to guess a lot of those got that way because people removed way too much material trying to "tune" the mouths.

Build your planes with properly oriented wood, tune the bottom to 400 grit on a very flat surface and then use the same 400 grit once or twice a year when they need retuning. I don't know whether the iron or the body will last longer, probably the body. You'd have to be using the plane full time to be a threat of wearing out either.

Matt Lau

05-03-2010, 11:50 PM

That's true...I was joining some redwood boards today with a Muji smoother.
It didn't go well, so I used some sandpaper on a level, and it did better.

For the Krenov plane, I'm only thinking of adding some stability to the sole.
I agree that it's not super important, but I tend to over-design whatever I'm doing. (For instance, my guitars have at least four major structural points that'll differ from major manufacturers that greatly aid tone).
At the very least, I'll still use some UHMW tape to toughen it out.

For infill planes, I was thinking of acrylic stabilized woods for infills.
Karl Holtey wrote that the wooden infill is the weakest link of a Norris/Spiers plane. Stabilized woods should help with this, while adding a certain level of weight.

If you've ever seen stabilized wood, you would know that it need not look like plastic. Think about the Blue Spruce mallets, the Blue Spruce bench chisel handles, or a bunch of the knives from fancier cutlery stores.
Think about a Holtey chariot in spalted maple and damascus...

At the end of the day, I'll have to test out the point on my own...
I'll post pictures and a report when I move out, set up shop, buy tools, and make the darn things.

Steve knight

05-03-2010, 11:53 PM

stabilizing a krenov plane would take care of wood movement. though no one told me they had to flatten one of my planes every year. but they may just not have mentioned it.

David Weaver

05-04-2010, 8:08 AM

Steve, I had a PH smoother of yours. I never *had* to flatten it. From time to time, I would still true it on 400 grit and then apply a quick coat of paste wax, though, more as a check to make sure it was still in line.

3 or 4 swipes across 400 grit 3x on a granite plane usually confirmed it wasn't really out of flat at all, and I think most planes made with dry wood will behave like that unless they are in a tough environment.

I previously had a 2-inc iron 63 degree muji smoother that I only ditched when I made my first infill, and over I guess about 3 years, it didn't move at all.

As far as infills and infused wood, I don't know what the cost of getting the wood would be. For me, having made only two infills so far, dried exotics are the thing I would still rather work with the most, above and beyond impregnated wood. In the event that they do even dry at all, they can be removed from a plane and redone - it's repairable, just like old guitars with hide glue and nitrocellulose finish were intended to be - people knew they'd need adjustment over the years, and even though they looked "permanent" the makers knew no part of them really is.

I also don't know just how much infusing goes on with the resin impregnation - how deep does it go? I have played with a piece that went through an impregnator that treats metal prior to powder coating, and it was more of a surface job. I turned a handle out of the block (it was bubinga), to see what I would end up with, and I ended up turning off all of the impregnated part. Dave Jeske's stuff looks different, so I'm not saying that's what his is like - maybe it goes all the way through, but that's a tough thing to do on a dalbergia 3 inches thick.