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View Full Version : Heads up to you laser engravers



Keith Outten
04-28-2010, 10:03 PM
The new Friends of The Creek directory system was started based on requests from this group. You should all know that in browse mode all of the records will be presented in the order they were created not alphabetically. This means that those who join early will have the lowest record numbers, hence the most exposure when people are browsing page after page.

You may consider this a shameless plug if you like but I felt obligated to remind everyone that waiting may not be in your best interest.
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Mike Null
04-28-2010, 10:10 PM
Keith

As one who supported this idea from the beginning I want to encourage everybody who has a business (hobby or full time) with a web site to sign up fast. I can say without equivocation that linking your site to SMC is productive.

Robert Rosensteel
04-28-2010, 10:24 PM
How do you sign up?

Ross Moshinsky
04-29-2010, 12:37 AM
I'm about a month out from my new site being up. If I were to buy the space now, could I reserve my spot until the site is ready to launch?

Mike Null
04-29-2010, 4:39 AM
Robert

Use this link. http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=137709

Ross

Yes, go ahead and sign up using the link above. You can list your domain name even if you haven't activated it yet.

You can edit your listing at any time as you add or delete items or services. Be advised that when you edit the new content must be approved before your link will be active again. That will usually be done overnight but could take a little longer.

Keith Outten
04-29-2010, 5:43 AM
Once the PayPal transaction is complete Jackie will add an electronic key to your account here which will automatically post 365 days to your account. When that is complete you can go to the FOTC page and you will have the ability to create your record and secure the next number in the database. Don't be to concerned about what you include in your record if you are still working on your web site, you can update your record at any time adding or removing information as you see fit.

The reason we review all entries is to prevent anyone from entering inappropriate language or links to adult sites.

We review PayPal and update accounts between 3 to 6 times per day.
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Angus Hines
04-29-2010, 12:06 PM
Well I just took spot #11....always one spot shy of a top ten Arrrrrggggghhhh!!!!!:D

Mike Null
04-29-2010, 12:15 PM
Angus

Welcome to FOTC. My spot is being updated so it doesn't show until re-approved. But you'll just be one spot lower on the list. Still a great bargain.

Ross Moshinsky
04-29-2010, 5:05 PM
Ross

Yes, go ahead and sign up using the link above. You can list your domain name even if you haven't activated it yet.

You can edit your listing at any time as you add or delete items or services. Be advised that when you edit the new content must be approved before your link will be active again. That will usually be done overnight but could take a little longer.

Mike, I'd prefer nothing listed honestly but my space reserved. Nothing worse than someone trying to go to your website and then hitting a dead link/inactive site. They'll never visit again.

Mike Null
04-29-2010, 5:33 PM
You can write your copy and list your contact info and add the domain later.

Angus Hines
05-02-2010, 8:58 AM
OK everybody needs to do this !!! I have already gotten 2 jobs because of this listing !!! Which paid for the cost of it !!!

Tim Bateson
05-02-2010, 10:28 AM
This wasn't what I requested! I am deeply disappointed.

Doug Griffith
05-02-2010, 11:12 AM
This wasn't what I requested! This is nothing more than paid advertising and an embarrassment to this web forum.

A little harsh there aren't you Tim?

It's paid advertising for a low fee that gives exposure to the entire Creek.

That's what it is. Take it or leave it.

Dan Hintz
05-02-2010, 11:55 AM
Tim,

Could you elaborate? Did you expect something other than what was presented, or were you promised something other than what is being offered to everyone?

It seems pretty straightforward what is offered, so I'm having a hard time understanding what would make you feel duped.

Scott Shepherd
05-02-2010, 12:06 PM
This is what Keith said it would be :


We have a project that we have been thinking about for some time that might be what some of you are looking for, it is a "Friends of The Creek List". The list would include your business name and contact information including your web link. The cost would be $50.00 per year to be included on the list which I think is inexpensive considering the link value and the exposure here. It would be tied to your login here and our accounting system for tracking purposes. I would have programming and maintenance expenses involved so I can't do it for free. A lot of people would have to sign up for this system before I can justify the cost.

And this is what you said, Tim :


Thanks Keith. :D

Not sure where the disconnect is, but it looks like Keith did exactly what he said he was going to do, why the surprise?

Tim Bateson
05-02-2010, 3:05 PM
Yes I did thank Keith. A lot of effort was put into this list of paying advertisers. I don’t even have a problem with that. It has its uses. At that time I had still hoped he was working on the original and a far more useful request.
On several occasions I have done work for other Creekers. I don’t see that as business nor should any of you. For this work I have charged a nominal fee, far below normal rates. We were – so I thought a community that shares common interests, our knowledge, our passion. If I wanted to advertize, I would do it on the WWW or locally, not among my colleagues.
What I had expected was a lookup of all contributors. Much like the “Friends of the Creek”. As a paid contributor I should have access to other contributors – if they so wish. If I need someone in my area with wood working skills, I should be able to find that person here without them having to first be a paying advertiser. If I need to find another engraver in a specific location, I should be able to find that person or persons. As is now I have to look through a limited number of paid advertisements or put out a Forum request – which is against forum policy.
Again, I don’t have a real issue with “Friends of the Creek”. I just wish we had a useful contributor/skill base look-up tool.

Doug Griffith
05-02-2010, 3:39 PM
Half of it is already done. A good solution might be the ability to search within the "About Me:Location" and "About Me:Occupation" and a new section "About Me:Services Offered". To make it worthwhile for Keith, this feature would only be available to contributors. More people might contribute.

Keith Outten
05-02-2010, 4:12 PM
Everyone who has a Friends of the Creek title is a Contributor here, the FOTC annual fee includes access to all of the Contributor perks and privileges. You don't have to own a business to be in the directory, it is open to amateur woodworkers and hobbyists as well.

Any personal information that is entered here as part of the registration process is off-limits. Our policy of protecting your information is ironclad and we will never allow it to be used without your permission. There are a host of organizations who are willing to pay a lot of money for our email list and contact information....It will never happen!

The Friends of the Creek Directory is open to everyone on the Internet, there are no search restrictions. This makes it an advertising system as well as a means of finding someone here that you can do business with or share their expertise should the need arise. The information entered into the FOTC directory is volunteered, in fact you decide what data you want to provide and you enter it yourself. If you want to share your web address, phone number, etc its your choice. Once again we are not providing any information to anyone that people here are not volunteering.

There is overhead associated with us operating and maintaining the FOTC directory. The annual fee amounts to just over four dollars per month, many public forums charge much more then that just for access so we thought the fee was extremely low. The value of the link here is worth more than the fee, it will most likely do more to promote a web site than the majority realize. In that light is is the bargain of the decade.

In the past I managed a list of laser engravers and cnc operators manually. It became to big of a job for me to continue to support for free. The only other option was for us to invest in the programming costs that would somewhat automate the task and incorporate the features that were requested. We certainly didn't get every feature that every individual wanted but we tried to provide as many as possible and keep the fee low enough that any small business or hobby woodworker could afford to participate.

- Friends of the Creek is an idea that came from within this Community.
- The directory provides those who wish to participate a means of sharing their information and at the same time keeps advertising out of our woodworking forums preserving them for all to enjoy, which is the primary reason we are all here.

Nothing is cast in stone. We are still open to suggestions that would improve the new directory service and we will always listen to those who are willing to share their ideas. The FOTC Directory will continue to grow and to be more valuable to those who participate and those who use the search capabilities, that is our goal.
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Dee Gallo
05-02-2010, 4:18 PM
Tim, on the occasions I needed specific help I did a search in the subject area, read the posts and found someone who I figured could help me. I then sent a PM to them and pretty much had no problems hiring or buying from a fellow Creeker through this method. If you look at the locations and posts, you should be able to find the person you want. And I've gotten responses from people in other sections of the forum who are just as forthcoming with help as the Engravers I know and love.

I've also had plenty of people do the same to me, asking for help or to buy something.

I believe the FOTC feature serves a unique and useful purpose. I've been trying to decide if I should join it even though my main area of work is so ridiculously specific I'd probably never get any business from it, but just to support the Creek.

While I understand your point and desire, which WOULD be a really handy thing, it seems like a lot of work since most Creekers have lots of areas of expertise and the logistics of listing everyone many times for various jobs would be super cumbersome. I think you are asking for a lot from Keith. A less demanding job would be to have a list of all Creek contributors from each state. Would be an interesting list to view and see the distribution of people around the country/world.

my usual 2 cents, dee

Mike Null
05-02-2010, 6:39 PM
But what's to stop anybody from mining that list or lists?

Keith Outten
05-03-2010, 6:30 AM
Mike,

I will let Aaron answer your question since he did the programing.
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Mike Null
05-03-2010, 8:26 AM
Keith

I was referring to the suggestions by Dee and Tim.

Dee Gallo
05-03-2010, 9:22 AM
You are absolutely right, Mike - I'm not sure I'd like to be on that list, since it would more than likely just result in a lot of junk mail. I think the system works well the way it is right now, this forum has been a valuable resource for me.

Keith Outten
05-03-2010, 11:58 AM
Tim,

Did I answer your question or at least spread some light on why the programing was done the way it is now?

The existing information that vBulletin stores from everyone's registration can't be used unless we had a vote and every single registered Member agreed to the changes. Because they were the rules when everyone registered it is almost impossible to change them now.

Many times people have requested access to people's location so they could find other Members in their local area, we can't provide that information because there are those who flat out don't want any of their information shared for any reason. There were other data fields that people wanted to be included that aren't in the vBulletin registration format, these had to be added and once again it involved custom programing to do so.

The new FOTC Directory has that information and more. Because the information is volunteered it doesn't violate the agreement we made concerning everyone's registration information and we aren't using any of the existing data fields except the username of the people who want to be included in the directory.

There wasn't any other way to do this that we could think of, include the data everyone wanted and at the same time keep the daily workload manageable. It had to be custom programing involved because it had to be integrated into vBulletin.

I have a feeling that I am not explaining this well but I'm trying.
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Doug Griffith
05-03-2010, 12:14 PM
An option would be for an announcement made on the Creek informing members that they need to opt in to allow certain information to be shared. They would need to agree to an amendment to the TOS while doing so. If they don't opt in, they remain under the original TOS.

Tim Bateson
05-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Keith, Thank you - yes you did answer my query.

Dan Hintz
05-03-2010, 1:58 PM
Keith,

One other possibility (I haven't decided if the pros outweigh the cons, though)...

Blank everyone's (potentially damaging) information (like location) across the board. Send out an amended TOS mentioning all details filled in will be made public (why fill it in if you don't want people to know it?). Place a sticky in the forums describing what's up, and let people know if they'd like their info public, all they have to do is go fill it in again. People can choose to leave it blank if they don't want it made public.

Get's around the original TOS without causing anyone harm, possibly clear out some of the detritus of members who signed up years ago but no longer log, and gets people what they seem to be asking for here.

BTW, I asked for FOTC, but I keep forgetting to sign up when I get home...

Keith Outten
05-03-2010, 3:21 PM
Dan,

I can't see what your suggestion will accomplish. We already have a directory that is working, separate from the vBulletin data. There isn't any means of adding your web link or a description of the services you can provide in vBulletin unless we hack the software which will cause us problems every time we have to upgrade.

Even if we could hack the vBulletin software there will still be maintenance to be performed and a review of all new data before it is visible to keep the trolls from entering information that is inappropriate.

What is the problem with the FOTC Directory as it stands?
If it is the fact that it has an annual fee to be paid that was understood when we were discussing the idea in the beginning. I agreed to restore the original engravers list for free but that wasn't what anyone wanted. They wanted a directory that could be searched in almost every field and custom data fields. This isn't something that we could incorporate in vBulletin.
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Scott Shepherd
05-03-2010, 4:13 PM
Keith, I'm with you, my friend. I don't get it either.

What it looks like to me is that people want to put their names/locations up so they can have people look them up for free and give them work.

So it would be a method for passing business back and forth. To me, last time I checked, that would be considered advertising.

Some people appear to want to advertise their business for free so people can find them, yet they don't allow people to advertise for free on their websites. I don't see any websites from member's businesses on here that link back to Sawmill Creek. So they want you to link to their site for free, but they don't link to your site.

Some clearly also do not understand how the internet and SEO works either. I have several friends in SEO and their companies get no less than $1,200 a month to do SEO and get you up the list on searches. However, linking here for $50 a year will help anyone's site a great deal.

To me, it looks like some people just want everything for nothing.

Just my opinion. I think the FOTC is perfect and a real value (and I'm like Dan, I keep forgetting to get signed up, but it'll get taken care of soon!).

Dan Hintz
05-03-2010, 5:25 PM
The existing information that vBulletin stores from everyone's registration can't be used unless we had a vote and every single registered Member agreed to the changes. Because they were the rules when everyone registered it is almost impossible to change them now.
Keith,

I wasn't suggesting replacing FOTC, I was just offering a way to resolve the quoted problem.

Doug Griffith
05-03-2010, 5:42 PM
My suggestion is a search function that returns a list members on Sawmill Creek that meet the location and services offered request. Not company information with URLs, etc... It would be up to the searcher to contact the member as done currently.

Keith Outten
05-03-2010, 6:36 PM
Doug,

Where would the information come from?
vBulletin doesn't have a place to enter the info you are suggesting.
Where would the search capability come from?
The vBulletin search is programed to search posts and threads.

If you go back and read the original thread where we discussed features everyone wanted to be able to include their web address, email address and company information. Are you suggesting that we cahnge direction?
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Doug Griffith
05-03-2010, 7:11 PM
Doug,

Where would the information come from?
vBulletin doesn't have a place to enter the info you are suggesting.
Where would the search capability come from?
The vBulletin search is programed to search posts and threads.

If you go back and read the original thread where we discussed features everyone wanted to be able to include their web address, email address and company information. Are you suggesting that we cahnge direction?
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I think the FOTC does a great job of delivering the web address, email, and other pertinent company info. The search functions do what they are supposed to do. They do it well.

What I'm suggesting is a hack into vBulletin. Something you mentioned you don't want to do. You are right, upgrades can break the code and may have to be reimplemented again. It can be a royal pain. But, since the data I mentioned is obviously in a database, it can be searched and tied to a specific member's account. The code could be modularized to make future changes as painless as possible. The interface could be a simplifeid version of the FOTC. A state select menu, a services field, and a "find" button. The returned data would be an alphabetized list of user names that link to their profile page. You could even prioritize by FOTC contributor, then contributor, then member. That is where it might pay for itself.

I don't want to be a nit picker. The FOTC is a great addition to Sawmill Creek.

Scott Challoner
05-04-2010, 11:45 AM
Just for kicks, I Googled "ne wisconsin engraving" and FOTC came up #1! I searched using other criteria from my profile and several came up in the top 5. That's pretty darn good SEO for $50!

Keith Outten
05-04-2010, 10:43 PM
Scott,

I'm not surprised at the promotional value of your FOTC advertisement, just think how much more powerful it will be as the new directory grows and search activity starts to rise. The number of new links/entries will only increase the status of the directory at Google.
:)
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Keith Outten
05-05-2010, 6:32 AM
Keith,

I wasn't suggesting replacing FOTC, I was just offering a way to resolve the quoted problem.

Thanks Dan,

The logistics of mass emailing over 55,000 people and having them read an announcement is probably an impossible task. Few read the announcements that we post here in our Forums and a large percentage are likely to have changed their email addresses. My short term memory is pretty bad these days, but I am unlikely to forget the promises I have made here to protect the personal information of our Members so I doubt we could reach enough people to validate a change in the TOS.

I have never used the mass email function in vBulletin and I won't unless we had some sort of emergency.

I think we have our new directory and I am sure that it will please the majority of our Community over the long run so we will stay the course and see what happens. We will continue to make improvements to the FOTC Directory when people share their suggestions but I can't see any reason that would change my mind concerning an effort to totally integrate a directory into vBulletin for the reasons I have already shared.

Aaron is already working on our new server again and he will most likely upgrade vBulletin to version 4 before he puts the new server online. Obviously we are concerned about making the changes and the workload required to get everything operating smoothly again and that includes the hacks that Aaron already has to incorporate that will affect the downtime.
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