Cabinetmaker Phillips screwdrivers

[Derek Cohen]

Is there such as thing as a cabinetmaker Phillips screwdriver? How can there be - they were invented in 1930 by Henry Phillips for car assemby lines for the extra speed with which they could be fastened. Frankly I think that they are awful looking and I avoid using them when I can. But they are difficult to avoid, and I have looked far and wide for an attractive set of Phillips screwdrivers that would not look out of place in my shop.

I have a very nice set of flat bladed screwdrivers that are marked "Made in Sheffield". I bought them on eBay many years ago and other than that have no idea by whom they were made. I recall seeing something similar at Garrett Wade. They have what looks like Beech handles. These are oval, comfortable, and provide good torque.

Last year I posted an article in which I hollow ground the blades: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ModifyingScrewdriversandTurnscrews.html

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Screwdrivers/Screwdrivers4.jpg

For Phillips screws I have largely relied on a couple of Stanley Yankees ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Screwdrivers/StanleyYankee1.jpg

My search for decent Phillips screwdrivers has now come to an end. I was brousing through the Lee Valley catalogue (as one does) when I came across, firstly, their Lifetime screwdriver shanks (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64983&cat=1,43411,43417&ap=1) (these are handleless) and, secondly, individual Octagonal Boxwood Chisel Handles (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30020&cat=1,41504) . To my eye these looked like a match made in heaven.

They arrived yesterday. The handles are English Boxwood. They feel comfortable and grippy in the hand, which is important for screwdrivers (whose shafts should not be round). Fir thise wanting to replicate these, I bought the handle sizes based on the recommended ferrule size for the screwdriver shafts.

OK, so what do these look like? Large, medium and small ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Screwdrivers/Phillips3.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Screwdrivers/Phillips1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Screwdrivers/Phillips2.jpg

At least I do not need to hide these out of sight.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Gibson]

They Look great! I have wanted to pick up a complete set of those screwdriver shafts and turn my own handles for them... I just have to get good enough at turning that I can make a matching set of handles.

[george wilson]

Isn't the idea of "cabinet maker's PHILLIPS screwdrivers" a little strange ? On anything decent,I never want to use Phillips screws,except on things like kitchen cabinets. Guess I'm a snob.:) Of course,it's getting harder and harder to find slotted screws,and next to impossible to find unplated slotted wood screws.

I'm considering starting to sell off some of my thousand pounds of still boxed 1950's slotted wood screws.

[Mark Kosmowski]

Now all you need is a set of square drivers (Robertson). :D

Those LV ones you assembled do look nice, like they belong. Thanks for showing them off to us.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Very nice work Derek.

I've always been tempted to buy a spare set of cabinetmaker's screwdrivers and gringing Phillips tips on them.

[Derek Cohen]

Isn't the idea of "cabinet maker's PHILLIPS screwdrivers" a little strange ? On anything decent,I never want to use Phillips screws,except on things like kitchen cabinets. Guess I'm a snob.:) Of course,it's getting harder and harder to find slotted screws,and next to impossible to find unplated slotted wood screws.

I'm considering starting to sell off some of my thousand pounds of still boxed 1950's slotted wood screws.

Hi George

I totally agree. I hoard slotted screws and only use them where they may be visible as they are now very hard to find. Phillips screws get used where they are unseen.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I hesitate to start selling my screws because: Some are clean,and some are in various stages of rusty; they are in original boxes,some of which are coming apart; I have used a few screws from some boxes,and I'm not willing to count 144 (old screws were sold in grosses,not 100 like now) screws out each time I sell a box. Someone's going to complain if they are missing a few screws. For the prices,my labor isn't worth counting them; most are larger sizes,like 1 1/2",2",etc. I have only 3/4" #5 in a small size. Also have boxes of beautiful fire blued round heads,but only 1 size.

I bought about 4000# of screws at the auction of an old ship fitting company in Hampton. It was like a trip back in time. They had bilge pumps for Liberty ships. There were wonderful chrome plated bronze fittings for the old mahogany runabouts. It was amazing. Jon and I peddled screws to every museum we could find. for some time.

[john davey]

OK, I am going to bite here and ask a stupid question. What is the difference in an older cabinet maker screwdriver and say an older craftsman screwdriver. I know they have the flat spot below the handle (but I do not know why). I am also just going to assume better quality/metal but is there something else? Thanks, and sorry if this falls into the stupid question category :).

[george wilson]

I am not sure what you mean by an "older craftsman screwdriver". Please clarify.

The flat spot below the handle is to apply a wrench to if you need more torque. The oval handles are for a better grip. However,I knew an old gunsmith who discarded those oval or flat handle screwdrivers back when they were common. He liked round handles better.

[Russell Sansom]

May I follow up with a slightly off-topic question?

Did all of those old oval-handled screwdrivers have tips shaped like chisels? Or have I just stumbled on several in a row that were like that? If so, I suppose they work well in a slotted screw? I haven't been able to decide it I want to grind one flat-sided like a modern screw driver or leave it alone.
And...I sometimes prefer the oval handles because they register the blade in my hand. No thinking; I just pick it up and my right brain remembers how to hold it.

[george wilson]

The BEST tip for a slotted screw is like the magnetic tipped screwdriver sets like Brownell's Gunsmith Supply sells. Their tips are hollow ground so that they do not make a lip of sharp,raised metal along the screw's slot. On fine guns,or fine work you definitely do not want buggered up screws. those Grace screwdriver sets are good screwdrivers,and a set is pretty cheap. They have their tips specially ground for not damaging fine gun screws. they have square wooden handles.

[Derek Cohen]

May I follow up with a slightly off-topic question?

Did all of those old oval-handled screwdrivers have tips shaped like chisels? Or have I just stumbled on several in a row that were like that? If so, I suppose they work well in a slotted screw? I haven't been able to decide it I want to grind one flat-sided like a modern screw driver or leave it alone.
And...I sometimes prefer the oval handles because they register the blade in my hand. No thinking; I just pick it up and my right brain remembers how to hold it.

Hi Russell

As George says.

Follow the link I posted above to explain this, and to show you how I fixed my set of "chisel" screwdrivers. I think these days most come that way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[john davey]

Sorry George, by older craftsman screwdriver I meant my set of Sears, Craftsman drivers I bought in the late 70's. Still have them but they look pretty much like modern screwdrivers so I guess I could have just said a sears screwdriver.

As far as the flat spot for a wrench. I guess I always assumed that was the case but this confirms it for me.

I am seriously thinking of getting a set of the LV driver shanks and turning the handles as well. It would be nice to have handles that fit my paws :).

Thanks, John....


I am not sure what you mean by an "older craftsman screwdriver". Please clarify.

The flat spot below the handle is to apply a wrench to if you need more torque. The oval handles are for a better grip. However,I knew an old gunsmith who discarded those oval or flat handle screwdrivers back when they were common. He liked round handles better.

[Jeff Willard]

OK, I am going to bite here and ask a stupid question. What is the difference in an older cabinet maker screwdriver and say an older craftsman screwdriver. I know they have the flat spot below the handle (but I do not know why). I am also just going to assume better quality/metal but is there something else? Thanks, and sorry if this falls into the stupid question category :).

A "cabinet", or "cabinet tipped" screwdriver has a tip that is consistent with the shank diameter of the screwdriver, I assume to fit within a counterbored screw hole. The Craftsman screwdriver has a flared tip which would preclude it's use in such an application. The flat that is found on turnscrews, I have been told, is for the application of a wrench or pair of pliers when additional torque is needed. I don't know how historically accurate this is, but it's the best explanation I've heard.

Derek, I like the "London Pattern" screwdrivers, but, why not just turn your own handles?

[George Clark]

Derek,

I also quite like your "London pattern" screwdrivers. After looking an the handles on Lee Valleys website something that has long puzzled me came to mind. Why do manufactures tend to reduce the size of the handle as the shaft size decreases while the size of the hand of the owner generally remains constant? :confused::confused::confused:

[george wilson]

Those "London pattern" handles are,of course,really for chisels,but can be used on screwdrivers.Original screwdrivers handled like those won't be found in history,I think.

Smaller handles were for thinner chisel blades,that you needed less power to push. The same applies to screw drivers.

[Derek Cohen]

... Derek, I like the "London Pattern" screwdrivers, but, why not just turn your own handles?

Hi Jeff

I could have turned these, but I just fancied getting boxwood handles, which is something that is more "traditional" than I have available. The best handles would be oval in shape, but the octagonal is also good. The fact that these handles are available was a plus.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Johnny Kleso]

Anyone looking for slotted screws www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) has Flat, Oval and Round head and any size you need..

[Jeff Willard]

Hi Jeff

I could have turned these, but I just fancied getting boxwood handles, which is something that is more "traditional" than I have available. The best handles would be oval in shape, but the octagonal is also good. The fact that these handles are available was a plus.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yeah, I guess boxwood is something of a rarity in Western Australia. Maybe Richard Raffan could help you out, He's originally from the Old World:rolleyes:.

[Jeff Burks]

A description (http://books.google.com/books?id=P-NIAAAAIAAJ&dq=screwdriver&lr&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1700&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1900&as_brr=1&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q&f=false) of the proper way to hollow grind a flat screwdriver tip.

[george wilson]

Yea,Kleso,but the slotted screws McMaster lists are the usual zinc plated,crap metal,squeezed out screws that you can get these days. Their slots are punched,not cut(have rounded edges.) The flat heads are stamped,leaving rounded edges,not crisp and sharp like they should be. The threads are rolled,and are not sharp on their edges like the old cut threads you used to could get. Older wood screws were cut from bar stock,and not stamped from poor,leaded steel that will easily wring off. I should have been a bit more descriptive of my specs for decent wood screws.

At the level of work I have been called upon to do,the new screws are just too junky to even consider.

Take out an old screw from the 1950's,and look carefully at it. You will see what I mean.If you are discerning enough about quality,you will lament the sad state of today's junk screws.

If I have to use these poor,new made screws,I remove the plating,and turn a bit off the tops of the screws to at least give a resemblance to the crisp edges that they should have,making the edges of the slots crisper,and the edges of the heads sharper.

When I really get stuck for decent flat head screws that will be seen,like on Queen Elizabeth's saffron teapot box,I do these things, polish,and heat blue the little screws that are seen in the brass hinges,like they were done in the 18th.and early 19th.C.'s.

In the 18th.C.,they never used brass screws on hinges,because their brass was cast,not rolled,and they didn't trust (nor should they have) the strength of cast brass.

Eventually,I think the plan is to eliminate slotted screws altogether. I also think Phillips head screws are just about the most worthless design that has ever been invented. Just try to put decent torque on them,unless you can bear down with gorilla strength.

[David Keller NC]

A bit more on what George said - If you're forced to use modern, zinc-plated slotted screws (as I am - I haven't run across a hoard of 1950's screws at a flea market (yet!), and am not quite ready to make my own out of wrought iron (but I'm getting there). The zinc plating on modern screws and hardware can be conveniently and safely removed with citric acid, in about the same concentration one would use to de-rust an old tool - about a tablespoon of citiric acid in a quart of warm tap water.

[jamie shard]

The BEST tip for a slotted screw is like the magnetic tipped screwdriver sets like Brownell's Gunsmith Supply sells. Their tips are hollow ground so that they do not make a lip of sharp,raised metal along the screw's slot. On fine guns,or fine work you definitely do not want buggered up screws. those Grace screwdriver sets are good screwdrivers,and a set is pretty cheap. They have their tips specially ground for not damaging fine gun screws. they have square wooden handles.

George, this is a little off topic from the original thread, but I was looking at the Brownell's site and saw they offered 22 and 44 bit sets for slot screws. Do you think that the 22 bit set would have essentially all the sizes needed for woodworking, or should I bite the bullet and order the 44 bit set? Mostly, I find that I don't have good fitting screwdrivers for adjusting the components on my metal planes and I want to fix that problem!

[george wilson]

I bought the smaller set,and find them adequate. Mostly,I got them to adjust a new pistol which I didn't want to hurt the edges of the screw slots on,so I haven't tried them on wood screws yet. You can buy individual bits as needed to fill out your needs.

[rick carpenter]

Does anyone offer a cut/recut service for Phillips head screwdrivers? A bit anal, I know...

[Harlan Barnhart]

I detect an untapped market here. I suppose it would be terribly expensive to produce decent screws such as Mr. Wilson might approve of, but wouldn't the same people who buy Brusso hinges be prepared to pay out for a project-worthy screw? Hello Mr. Rob Lee/Mr. Joel Moskowitz ect... are you listening?

[David Weaver]

Excellent, Derek. I like those handles a lot for screwdrivers, maybe more than chisels. I have the Iles set of those, someone sold the full boat (11 of them?) for cheap on WN a couple of years ago. I can't get on with them for most things, but the handles would be great on screwdrivers.

Tasteful and tidy execution, as always, too.

[Johnny Kleso]

Yea,Kleso,but the slotted screws McMaster lists are the usual zinc plated,crap metal,squeezed out screws that you can get these days. Their slots are punched,not cut(have rounded edges.) The flat heads are stamped,leaving rounded edges,not crisp and sharp like they should be. The threads are rolled,and are not sharp on their edges like the old cut threads you used to could get. Older wood screws were cut from bar stock,and not stamped from poor,leaded steel that will easily wring off. I should have been a bit more descriptive of my specs for decent wood screws.

At the level of work I have been called upon to do,the new screws are just too junky to even consider.

Take out an old screw from the 1950's,and look carefully at it. You will see what I mean.If you are discerning enough about quality,you will lament the sad state of today's junk screws.

If I have to use these poor,new made screws,I remove the plating,and turn a bit off the tops of the screws to at least give a resemblance to the crisp edges that they should have,making the edges of the slots crisper,and the edges of the heads sharper.

When I really get stuck for decent flat head screws that will be seen,like on Queen Elizabeth's saffron teapot box,I do these things, polish,and heat blue the little screws that are seen in the brass hinges,like they were done in the 18th.and early 19th.C.'s.

In the 18th.C.,they never used brass screws on hinges,because their brass was cast,not rolled,and they didn't trust (nor should they have) the strength of cast brass.

Eventually,I think the plan is to eliminate slotted screws altogether. I also think Phillips head screws are just about the most worthless design that has ever been invented. Just try to put decent torque on them,unless you can bear down with gorilla strength.

Mr. Wilson,

There are 100s of screw machine shops through out the USA all it takes is a Brown & Sharpe screw machine and they can make you all the coustom screws you need...... While in HS I worked weekends in one..

Try here
http://www.narragansettscrew.com/cut_thread_wood_screws.htm

[Keith Pitman]

Your slotted screwdrivers are made by "Clay." The name was originally on the wood handle in paint or decal and wears off easily with use. (You'd think a manufacturer would want their name to endure!) I have a similar set from the early 1990's. I've seen Clay screwdrivers on Ebay occasionally.

I also have a set of two similar, but not "Clay" wood handled Phillips screwdrivers from the same time period. They have light colored oval handles and are marked "Sheffield."

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Clay. I'll make a note of this.

Regards from Perth

Derek