Any tips on pricing for custom cabinets???

[Michael Dunn]

I just finished building my first cabinet for a customer. I was a bit too excited to bargain for a better price. I built a single cabinet for a kitchen sink. I used pocket screws for the face frame and tongue and fado joinery for the sides, back, and bottom. I charged $100 installed.

From time it took to estimate, a couple trips to the store, and actually building it I spent about 6-8 hours.

What do you charge for simple cabinet like this? I'll post pics in a minute...

I am thinking about having a $125 minimum charge, installation extra...

For the record my $100 did not include materials. The customer purchased them and delivered them to my shop.

This person rehabs many homes and likes my work. I would like to do business again, $100 per, I feel is not worth my time.

Thanx,

shotgunn

[Joe A Faulkner]

First let me say I've never made a dime on woodworking projects. I've owned rental properties and done a bit of rehabing over the years. Landlords/investors are typically looking to make money, so if you can be price competive with the home centers and provide equal or superior quality/craftsmanship, then you might use typical retail prices at the home centers as reference point. Go to your local home center and get some quotes on cabinets made using the components you are likely to use - solid frames and door panels, quality sheet goods for the sides; decent drawer slides. Then figure out if you can compete. You deserve a decent labor rate as well as some cost recovery for your tools, blades, equipment, etc. Don't forget to include things like finishes, brushes, even items for clean up. These little incidentals add up. Not to mention your electricity, your vehicle being used to get materials and deliver products. Good luck.

[Michael Dunn]

She didn't even have me rebuild the doors. Weird huh? Here are some pics, just for the heck of it.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/shotgunndunn/cabinet3.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/shotgunndunn/cabinet4.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/shotgunndunn/cabinet6.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/shotgunndunn/cabinet5.jpg

I tried to emulate the exact style of the existing cabinets.

Thanx for the tips, I'll be sure to head to the big box stores to see what they have and for how much $$.

Thanx,

shotgunn

[Gary Breckenridge]

Let me see, your tools, time, shop and truck. I bet you have some shop materials in the job. I'd go with $20 per hour as an absolute minimum and work up from there. Be careful on too low a quote to win a job; a super low price will be expected next time.:cool:

[David Gendron]

+1 for Gary. And $20/hour is cheep labor!!

[Michael Dunn]

I said $30/hr initially. I think I may start from there next time. Start high and work low. I think it took me about 90 minutes to make and assmemble the face frame. Perhaps around 2 hours to to the joinery for the sides. 1 hour to sand and assemble, and around an hour to install.

Approximately 5 hours, plus a couple trips to lowes, menards, etc...

Now she expects me to finish it too. I haven't told her yet, but NOOOOO WAY!!! The job started out as a face frame repair. I agreed to finish just the part that I repaired. However after further investigation, I ended rebuilding the entire cabinet.

Thanx,

shotgunn

[Clint Barden]

I've done a few cabinet projects for hire. It's a hard road if you are legitimately trying to make money. There are a few books on how to price your projects and make money. You need to charge more for sure.

[David Prince]

When you first estimate a project, play it out in your head and decide how long you think it is going to take you. From there, decide what you think your time is worth. Multiply your hours times your rate and get your price. Add any materials needed for the project. You could then also decide a percentage to add as your overhead to cover wear and tear on tools etc. Write this out. Do the project. Keep track of your time and materials. You may come in low or high. Keep track of this for future reference. Sometimes you hit it, sometimes you don't. That is where experience helps. Be up front and honest with the lady. Tell her you were able to do this particular project for $100, but that you would need $150 in the future (Or whatever number you need). She can then choose to continue with your services or try to hire someone else. (Also keep in mind that the more you do of a certain type of project the more efficient you become. You can then do those same types of projects in a fraction of the time and you will come out ahead) You may not be making alot at $100 a pop, but it will help you stay busy and may lead to more work that you might be able to actually make something on. I don't think there is a woodworker or carpenter here that hasn't lost money on a job. It goes with the territory. There is also such a thing as pricing yourself right out of business!

[Bruce Wrenn]

If you aren't charging in the $45 - $75 an hour range for labor, you might as well be picking up beer cans from beside the road to sell. You will make more money on the cans for time and equiptment invested. Remember you only have two things to sell, your time and talents. You can only sell them once, so get the best price you can the first time. Every year, Cabinet Maker magazine does a pricing article. They take a project that someone has already done, and everyone tries to figure their price to build. The numbers are all over the place, with some being way too cheap (yours) and others way too expensive. Price out comparable cabinet at BORG and see what it sells for. Ive been doing a laminate job for the last month, on which I made "good money", until I figured my TOTAL HOURS in. Still made money, just not as much per hour as I should have. It's my own fault, as I gave them a fixed price. Doing a job next week that I should clear 3K on, but it has to be done in nine days, no if, ands, or buts. Some jobs you will price thinking you are going to make a "ton of money," and you only make wages, while some others that you feel have no profit will get you some nice change. You win some, and you loose some, just make sure to have more winners than loosers.

[Leo Graywacz]

$15.50 per lineal inch for natural birch. Calculate a percentage for higher/lower material prices. $100 per door, $100 per dovetail drawer and slab front. $35 for slab drawer front in the case of a sink. Finishing is done on a percentage of job. 20% for a clear coat, 25% for a stain and clear, 30% stain, tone and clear and another 5 percent for glazing. So basic clear is 20% and tack on another 5% for each additional step.

The $15.50 is price installed.

a 36" sink cabinet with 2 doors and 1 faux drawer front would be $793 plus whatever finish schedule on top of that.

[Steven Green]

When I was starting out I made the mistake of not charging at the minimum average price. Every single time I did it I had problems with the client. Now I charge market price plus a little I do the very best work I can and try to do a little more than I'm being paid to do. I don't have to advertise at all anymore, it's all word of mouth. IMHO your time and skills are worth every penny you can get for them.

[Glen Butler]

You can try to price after the BORG, but if your cabinets are better than the BORG your price should reflect. Many people are willing to pay for quality. You need to decide now what your market is. My market is people who are willing to pay 20% more, and I am never hurting for work.

[John Coloccia]

When I was starting out I made the mistake of not charging at the minimum average price. Every single time I did it I had problems with the client.

Boy, ain't that the truth.

[Steve Milito]

$15.50 per lineal inch for natural birch. Calculate a percentage for higher/lower material prices. $100 per door, $100 per dovetail drawer and slab front. $35 for slab drawer front in the case of a sink. Finishing is done on a percentage of job. 20% for a clear coat, 25% for a stain and clear, 30% stain, tone and clear and another 5 percent for glazing. So basic clear is 20% and tack on another 5% for each additional step.

The $15.50 is price installed.

a 36" sink cabinet with 2 doors and 1 faux drawer front would be $793 plus whatever finish schedule on top of that.

My kitchen had a 4' 'pastry' counter ( a lower counter for rolling out dough). It was poorly conceived and had wasted space beneath it with decorative lattice. I had one of the better custom cabinet makers in the area build a cherry cabinet. It had 2 doors and six drawers. The finish was matched to my existing cabinets as was the hardware. The cabinet work came out to the low $2k range. I also had electric and plumbing done to turn the whole thing into a coffee bar. So the overall project was a bit more expensive. Granted, the cabinet was fancier than yours, but I think $100 is under priced.

FWIW: The cabinet looks like it was always there, with the style and finish perfectly matching, which is why I had a pro do it, rather trying it myself. He immediately knew who built the original cabinet, and knew where he sourced the doors, drawers, and hardware at first glance.

[Ellen Benkin]

If you want to work for her again, be honest and tell her you will live up to your end of the bargain but you realize you way underbid the job. Decide your wages per hour or per job and tell her that's what it would take.

I just built a table for someone and, because I had to figure out a lot of stuff, it took a very long time. I couldn't charge per hour because the total would have been ridiculous. I finally took the cost of materials (which I bought) and tripled that to come up with a total. We both thought that was fair.

[Joe Chritz]

$125 seems about right if you aren't supplying any materials and no drawers, doors or drawer fronts.

I would figure about 3 hours to do that cab as is and would price it at about $40 an hour. I would likely add about an hour or so because it is matched to the other cabs which should be worth something.

Obviously doors and drawers would add a bunch.

On estimating time I try to charge a fair rate on what I think it should take. I am slowly getting close to where I finish in about the time I think I should.

Joe

[David Prince]

If you aren't charging in the $45 - $75 an hour range for labor, you might as well be picking up beer cans from beside the road to sell. You will make more money on the cans for time and equiptment invested. Remember you only have two things to sell, your time and talents. You can only sell them once, so get the best price you can the first time.

Keep in mind the market you are working in! At this rate you are saying $93,600 to $156,000 per year if you work 40 hours per week. You better be pretty darn good for that! I would pay your rates, but it better be good.

Not trying to criticize the base cabinet in the above pics, but I am not overly impressed and definately would not pay $45 to $75 per hour for that. The reveal on the left hand side of the last picture doesn't look like it is lined up correctly. It lacks support across the very top rail. (imagine a person sitting up on the front edge of that sink on the installed cabinet. I can see it giving way) Looks like 1/2 plywood sides. Malamine bottom. No drawer fronts, back, doors, or finish. 6 - 8 hours to build this would put you at $270 to $600 for this cabinet based on Bruce's prices. I think you were closer when you quoted $30 per hour. If you are doing high-end cabinets, then $45 to $75 per hour is fair, but you better be good enough to earn that!

[Brendan Plavis]

My prices would be: $35per hour for the construction, then as an optional charge, $100(for all, not p/h) for paint/finish. I would also require 4hours to be paid in advance. That way if they bugger out, I would atleast have some money for my time.

My breakdown: My electricity, wear on my tools, ties up my shopspace, and its my a** I am risking...

[David Prince]

My prices would be: $35per hour for the construction, then as an optional charge, $100(for all, not p/h) for paint/finish. I would also require 4hours to be paid in advance. That way if they bugger out, I would atleast have some money for my time.

My breakdown: My electricity, wear on my tools, ties up my shopspace, and its my a** I am risking...

And just how many cabinets like this have you built?

[Joe Jensen]

Keep in mind the market you are working in! At this rate you are saying $93,600 to $156,000 per year if you work 40 hours per week. You better be pretty darn good for that! I would pay your rates, but it better be good.

Keep in mind that the number is gross. If this is a hobby shop guy trying to make some cash for tools, that's one thing. If this is a budding business, you need to make enough to cover all the time spent on things like trips to home depot, trips to measure, trips to install.

Last year I did my first pay job in 20 years. The client was my wife's friend and they wanted an 80" wide cabinet in a media room finished to match the rest of the cabinets in their home. I ended up bidding $2100 and they agreed. I tried very hard to plan to minimize trips their home as it was 30 minutes each way. I hoped to do only 2 trips, one to measure, and one to install, but alas I needed to make a third trip. In the end, I made $50 an hour if I didn't count redoing the finish 3 times to get it to match the existing finish. The homeowner had the original stain so I figured it would be easy to match. Turns out that much of the pigment had settled and hardened in the bottom of the can of stain so it would never match. Counting my actual hours, and nothing for wear and tear on my truck ($1.00 per mile according to Edmunds), and nothing for the use of my tools and shop, I made $30 an hour. Most people only think about gas on the cost of driving. Every mile you drive reduces the value of your vehicle, wears tires, moves you closer to a brake job, etc. My kids drive a VW Jetta and according the Edmunds the true cost to drive that car is $.58 per mile. And that's one of the lowest costs. Don't forget saw blades, router bits, screws, glue, it all adds up.

[Joe Jensen]

One more thought. In my day job we try to use "value based pricing" meaning we try to price based on the value our products deliver. In this case, the house flipper had an existing kitchen with a unique cabinet design. If they couldn't repair or replace this cabinet (with the weird door openings) they would either have to buy a new and different cabinet from a big box store and it wouldn't match. Or, replace the kitchen (expensive). I would have looked at the cost of a new one from Home depot and added 50-100%.

[Bill Wyko]

I was told by a veteran kitchen builder to put in writing, "If the walls are out of line more than 1/4 inch, all estimates on time go immediately to an hourly rate. He said walls not where they should be, make for the biggest nightmares. I will say though, nice work.

[Leo Graywacz]

one more thought. In my day job we try to use "value based pricing" meaning we try to price based on the value our products deliver. In this case, the house flipper had an existing kitchen with a unique cabinet design. If they couldn't repair or replace this cabinet (with the weird door openings) they would either have to buy a new and different cabinet from a big box store and it wouldn't match. Or, replace the kitchen (expensive). I would have looked at the cost of a new one from home depot and added 50-100%.

300%-400%..

[Johnnyy Johnson]

Man!!! These are all such good post on ideas of pricing. I'm doing it as a hobby, but I can use your ideas to price what I do by word of mouth for friends. Who knows..I may do it for profect someday.

[Joe Jensen]

300%-400%..

I should have been more clear. Finished big box store cabinet with doors, and double for an unfinished box is what I was thinking. Plus, he didn't pay for the materials.

[Leo Graywacz]

Materials are the least of the costs that are incurred. I am a cabinetmaker that runs a shop. I have lots of expenses that need to be paid for. Rent, electricity, insurance, state registration, phone, truck, gasoline. All that has to be paid for too.

Working out of your basement or garage making a cabinet or two in a month is not really what I'm talking about.

Even if you are just doing it as a hobby and get some cash for it don't undersell yourself. But if you are doing this for cash and don't have a business license you would be considered a hack in the business world.

[Scott Loven]

I would look at it this way, what would it cost her to buy new and replace? If it can still be purchased to match the existing, suggest that she do it and that you do the install for $100. To custom make something to match what is already there I would charge 2-3 times the borg price. You have to figure what her walk away price is and charge a little less then that or don't do it.

[Bruce Wrenn]

[QUOTE=David Prince;1411627]Keep in mind the market you are working in! At this rate you are saying $93,600 to $156,000 per year if you work 40 hours per week. You better be pretty darn good for that! I would pay your rates, but it better be good Most, myself included, can't bill for 40 hours per week. When I do an estimate that take 8 hours, including job site measurements, locating materials, etc, and then don't get the job- who pays me for my time? My expenses continued on while doing this estimate. My wife and kids still want to eat. I like to have some vacation and sick leave also, which has to come from that $40 hour rate. Don't forget I get to pay BOTH HALVES of my social security. Don't forget that many locations require licensee renewal courses each year. What about the time and expense of going to trade shows or classes to learn latest government requirements, or methods of work. No one writes me a check at the end of these, I usually have to write them a check to go. I don't know if I'm good, but I have always had a waiting list. Oh yeah in 20+ years, I haven't even printed a business card, word of mouth only. I only know of one unhappy customer in that time. She bought an expensive faucet, that I installed. Faucet failed while I was on vacation, but she thought I should come home and fix HER faucet. My work didn't fail, but HER faucet did. Recently I bid a job for a company. Was told I was too high. Building manager at another branch said "Don't worry, they will pay you more to go and fix it after other person does job." Several times, my charges were less to fix someone else's mistakes than they were paid originally. And when I left it was RIGHT. No one had to come behind me and fix it again. Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice fresh ones they will cost you. But if you don't mind if they have been through the horse first, these are a lot cheaper. Some times, sit down and figure exactly what your employer has to charge for your services. It is a lot more than your paycheck. About triple what your check says. Sick leave, vacation, holidays, workman's comp, unemployment ins., other half of SS, book keeping expense, place for you to work. I'm even willing to bet they want to make a profit on your work.

[Michael Dunn]

You are correct, the one side did not line up perfectly. I was not worried about that as the left side of the cabinet is now butted up against another cabinet. I figured I wouldn't worry about it for that reason and also time and $$$.

As far as the construction goes... I just tried to emulate what they already had. There was actually 3/8" ply in the exisiting cab. I used 1/2". I wanted to keep it simple, and that I did.

shotgunn


Keep in mind the market you are working in! At this rate you are saying $93,600 to $156,000 per year if you work 40 hours per week. You better be pretty darn good for that! I would pay your rates, but it better be good.

Not trying to criticize the base cabinet in the above pics, but I am not overly impressed and definately would not pay $45 to $75 per hour for that. The reveal on the left hand side of the last picture doesn't look like it is lined up correctly. It lacks support across the very top rail. (imagine a person sitting up on the front edge of that sink on the installed cabinet. I can see it giving way) Looks like 1/2 plywood sides. Malamine bottom. No drawer fronts, back, doors, or finish. 6 - 8 hours to build this would put you at $270 to $600 for this cabinet based on Bruce's prices. I think you were closer when you quoted $30 per hour. If you are doing high-end cabinets, then $45 to $75 per hour is fair, but you better be good enough to earn that!

[Kurt Cady]

And just how many cabinets like this have you built?

Thank you!

[Michael Dunn]

If it is me you are asking... This was actually my first one.


Thank you!

[james bell]

Okay, lets go with the facts. If you work a 40 hour week, 50 weeks per year, that equates to 2,000 billable hours. At $20/hr, you would make $40K if you work full time with no sick days, no vacation, and the standard 10 holidays per year. And no benefits except working at home with no real boss (wife excepted).

I quit working about four years ago (not retired since I don't get a pension), but from what I hear, they want to give tax credits to people who make less than $40K. So $40K for a craftsman is not economical.

Figure out what you want to make per year, divide by 2,000 FOR A START, knowing that you won't work 2,000 hours.

I have build three full kitchens and a lot of furniture for the worse customer in the world, my wife. I have many friends ask me to build them something, but with my pace of work they either can't afford it OR I will have to over charge (only in my estimation). Probably cutting myself short, but life at my age is too short to worry about making money. Like many on this site, I make presents and enjoy myself, but you would probably be surprised if you price your work at $100/hr - they would still come!

Good luck

[Gage Hearn]

$15.50 per lineal inch for natural birch. Calculate a percentage for higher/lower material prices. $100 per door, $100 per dovetail drawer and slab front. $35 for slab drawer front in the case of a sink. Finishing is done on a percentage of job. 20% for a clear coat, 25% for a stain and clear, 30% stain, tone and clear and another 5 percent for glazing. So basic clear is 20% and tack on another 5% for each additional step.

The $15.50 is price installed.

a 36" sink cabinet with 2 doors and 1 faux drawer front would be $793 plus whatever finish schedule on top of that.


Hey Leo, good informaton here! Would you be willing to provide an update on about what this pricing would look like 14 years later? Trying to get an approximate baseline for pricing my own cabinets. Dont want to sell myself short. Thank you!

[jack duren]

The only thing you should be charging by the hour is high end furniture.Cabinetry is not by the hour.

[Jim Becker]

I said $30/hr initially.
While having an hourly shop rate for incidental work is great (and that number is way too low), as has been noted already by folks who have been in the business, cabinetry type work is priced more by the job and quite often by the linear foot. You not only have to cover your materials and labor for creating the stuff for the job, but also cover yourself for any time on call-backs and so forth as well as "shop costs" for heat, light, power, machine maintenance, tooling acquisition/replacement, insurance, accounting/legal services, etc. (all that latter stuff is "overhead" that any business has) You pretty much gave that first cabinet away for sure. Remember, custom/production work isn't to compete with box store product prices; it's to compete with other custom makers your clients might ask to also quote on the job. If the client wants box store prices...they are not the client to woo.

[jack duren]

While having an hourly shop rate for incidental work is great (and that number is way too low), as has been noted already by folks who have been in the business, cabinetry type work is priced more by the job and quite often by the linear foot. You not only have to cover your materials and labor for creating the stuff for the job, but also cover yourself for any time on call-backs and so forth as well as "shop costs" for heat, light, power, machine maintenance, tooling acquisition/replacement, insurance, accounting/legal services, etc. (all that latter stuff is "overhead" that any business has) You pretty much gave that first cabinet away for sure. Remember, custom/production work isn't to compete with box store product prices; it's to compete with other custom makers your clients might ask to also quote on the job. If the client wants box store prices...they are not the client to woo.

Custom in my business means fitting the walls. Not buying a big box cabinet and using fillers.

[John Kananis]

IMHO:

You are competing in the wrong market. Small shops can't earn a living pricing their work against big box stores.

My price for that carcass would be $800 and I don't install. I would not have made it with pocket holes and half inch material either though. My labor rate (if I charge by the hour, which I usually don't) is $125/hr with a 2 hour minimum. Incidentally, I don't advertise as all my work has been word of mouth for a really long time. The only way to make quick cash doing inexpensive cabinetry/installs is closets and folks aren't really that big into that any longer either.

[jack duren]

IMHO:

You are competing in the wrong market. Small shops can't earn a living pricing their work against big box stores.

My price for that carcass would be $800 and I don't install. I would not have made it with pocket holes and half inch material either though. My labor rate (if I charge by the hour, which I usually don't) is $125/hr with a 2 hour minimum. Incidentally, I don't advertise as all my work has been word of mouth for a really long time. The only way to make quick cash doing inexpensive cabinetry/installs is closets and folks aren't really that big into that any longer either.

you don’t compete with big box stores.

I’m totally lost on how you price..

[John Kananis]

Their pricing model is based on a warehouse full of people pumping out massive amounts of cabinets a day with materials that you and I buy at triple the price (due to quantity and source of purchase). I'm pricing my work accordingly.


you don’t compete with big box stores.

I’m totally lost on how you price..

[jack duren]

Their pricing model is based on a warehouse full of people pumping out massive amounts of cabinets a day with materials that you and I buy at triple the price (due to quantity and source of purchase). I'm pricing my work accordingly.

Accordingly to what? You’re charging $800 a box. people pay $800 for a box?

[John Kananis]

Yes, sir, they do. Depends on your specific market and which segment of that market that you target.


Accordingly to what? You’re charging $800 a box. people pay $800 for a box?

[andy bessette]

...I spent about 6-8 hours...

You should know exactly how long it took, now that the job is already done.

[Richard Coers]

You should know exactly how long it took, now that the job is already done.
Oh yeah, since the question was asked 14 years ago!!!

[jack duren]

Yes, sir, they do. Depends on your specific market and which segment of that market that you target.

When I had my shop I charged $45 per foot for a box.

[John Kananis]

I ordered two cheesesteaks for my wife and I last week. I picked it them up and it came close to 50 bucks for two sandwiches and they still wanted a tip... Times, they are a changing.


When I had my shop I charged $45 per foot for a box.

[jack duren]

We aren’t talking about sandwiches.

commercial was $300-$350 Running foot. Your making more than commercial..

[John Pendery]

Jack, when you say $45 a foot for a box, what exactly does that mean? Do you price fame frames/edgbanding, door/drawer fronts, hardware, etc… as extras? Seems low, so I’m curious, but no offense intended whatsoever.

[jack duren]

Jack, when you say $45 a foot for a box, what exactly does that mean? Do you price fame frames/edgbanding, door/drawer fronts, hardware, etc… as extras? Seems low, so I’m curious, but no offense intended whatsoever.

Box with face was $28.75 and uppers were $24.25. This was years ago, but all I have to do is adjust for material prices and wages,.

after the box footage, you have doors, drawers, hinges, drawer hardware, etc.

[jack duren]

Let’s take a 10’ base cabinet.

10 x $28.75 PB…
5 doors?
5 drawers ?
5 sets hardware x?
5pairs of hinges x?

Finish end/ends x?
top?

Remember… Your not making a box , but a whole set..

[Richard Coers]

Box with face was $28.75 and uppers were $24.25. This was years ago, but all I have to do is adjust for material prices and wages,.

after the box footage, you have doors, drawers, hinges, drawer hardware, etc.
How many years ago?

[jack duren]

How many years ago?


All I need do is upgrade the price what I payed from the suppliers then to now and play with the wages.

[Richard Coers]

All I need do is upgrade the price what I payed from the suppliers then to now and play with the wages.
That's not an answer to my question.

[jack duren]

That's not an answer to my question.

Why, Are you a cabinet maker?

[John Kananis]

Yeah, play with those wages...a lot. Never mind cost of material. No, we're not talking sandwiches here but you do have to pay for those sandwiches with wages earned. And I don't live in a third world country so I'm not breaking my butt for peanuts. How exactly do you justify the nearly 10x price for commercial? Like I mentioned, I'm not using pocket holes and half inch ply from HD. My cabinets (when I do those, that's not all I do) can be treated as standalone furniture - meaning they aren't dependent on the studs in the wall to hold them straight and square. Furniture, I charge a considerable sum more for.


All I need do is upgrade the price what I payed from the suppliers then to now and play with the wages.

[jack duren]

Yeah, play with those wages...a lot. Never mind cost of material. No, we're not talking sandwiches here but you do have to pay for those sandwiches with wages earned. And I don't live in a third world country so I'm not breaking my butt for peanuts. How exactly do you justify the nearly 10x price for commercial? Like I mentioned, I'm not using pocket holes and half inch ply from HD. My cabinets (when I do those, that's not all I do) can be treated as standalone furniture - meaning they aren't dependent on the studs in the wall to hold them straight and square. Furniture, I charge a considerable sum more for.


We don’t buy from the big box. We have cabinet supply companies in KC. Commercial is a completed box installed.

You can call what you build Furniture, still cabinets.

[John Pendery]

Let’s take a 10’ base cabinet.

10 x $28.75 PB…
5 doors?
5 drawers ?
5 sets hardware x?
5pairs of hinges x?

Finish end/ends x?
top?

Remember… Your not making a box , but a whole set..

I’m well aware what goes into making cabinets. Merely trying to understand your pricing method, which still seems extremely low for anything but wholesale cabinets which absolutely serve a necessary purpose. I’m guessing this discussion is not reflective of an apples to apples pricing comparison.

[Jim Becker]

Custom in my business means fitting the walls. Not buying a big box cabinet and using fillers.
That's not in conflict with what I said, Jack.

[Lee Schierer]

Guys, this thread was started 14 years ago, I'm sure prices for material and labor have changed substantially since then..

[jack duren]

I’ve got 5 cabinet shops in a 10 mile radius. I had to price to compete with those shops. Builders homes are generally a bit cheaper than an individual because they give you more than one home and expect it. You can’t blow up prices because you want to. I had a cabinet maker in Chicago tell me he got double. That’s great, but not here.

[John Pendery]

Jack, understood, and I respect your ability to operate competitively in that market. I too believe in pricing work fairly to both parties involved.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I always do a full estimate by counting up every stick, every sheet, all of the other materials & supplies and every hour. The last project was two 40" wide X 84" tall X 10"deep bookcases, with solid oak facing and oak plywood cases, adjustable shelves, no doors, stained and varnished. Delivered and installed for $1500. It took 4 days. The labor was $800. I needed the work at the time so it was OK. I can make more $ doing home repairs and remodeling.

[Jim Becker]

A new member bumped this thread from 2010 ... a "necro-thread", as it were. I didn't notice that myself until Lee brought it up. All the economics have changed in 14 years for sure.

[Dave Sabo]

Keep in mind the market you are working in! At this rate you are saying $93,600 to $156,000 per year if you work 40 hours per week. You better be pretty darn good for that! I would pay your rates, but it better be good.


but you’re ok with paying a plumber or electrician or HVAC tech $200,000 to $300,000 a year ?

[Rob Sack]

but you’re ok with paying a plumber or electrician or HVAC tech $200,000 to $300,000 a year ?

How many plumber, electricians, and HVAC techs make $200,000 - $300,000 a year? Since we are talking about "a" plumber, electrician, or HVAC tech, can we assume this is net income to which you are referring?

[Maurice Mcmurry]

A Plumber, Electrician, or HVAC Tech has to have certification to be legitimate. If you want to create a company to do those jobs the expenses are huge. To build cabinets in our town all that is required is a criminal records check and a $20 a year business license. When I started a $1000 bond was also required. The bond requirement has been done away with.

[John Kananis]

You forgot the cost of a hammer and a Phillis head screwdriver. That's all that's needed, right? How about auto mechanics? All they need is an adjustable wrench? Why their high pricing? There's zero "required" certification to work on your vehicle. This is silly imho. And no two plumbers earn the same living as one another, ask for what you belive you're worth. Folks will either pay it and you'll do OK or they won't and you have to rethink things.


A Plumber, Electrician, or HVAC Tech has to have certification to be legitimate. If you want to create a company to do those jobs the expenses are huge. To build cabinets in our town all that is required is a criminal records check and a $20 a year business license. When I started a $1000 bond was also required. The bond requirement has been done away with.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I always do a full estimate by counting up every stick, every sheet, all of the other materials & supplies and every hour. The last project was two 40" wide X 84" tall X 10"deep bookcases, with solid oak facing and oak plywood cases, adjustable shelves, no doors, stained and varnished. Delivered and installed for $1500. It took 4 days. The labor was $800. I needed the work at the time so it was OK. I can make more $ doing home repairs and remodeling.

I always start a custom cabinetry conversation by telling my clients that "I can not compete with ready made cabinetry". If they want to talk further, I get out the laptop & hot-spot and take them shopping on the web. It is a quick and helpful way to figure out what they want and what their budget is. I also tip my hat to HGTV the popularity of which has greatly reduced the sticker shock that I have struggled against for years.

518073

[jack duren]

I gave customers a bare price on cabinets and if they wanted to upgrade it was up to them.

[John Kananis]

Apologies, I reread my last post to you and it just sounded outright rude, which is not what I was trying to achieve.


A Plumber, Electrician, or HVAC Tech has to have certification to be legitimate. If you want to create a company to do those jobs the expenses are huge. To build cabinets in our town all that is required is a criminal records check and a $20 a year business license. When I started a $1000 bond was also required. The bond requirement has been done away with.

[andrew whicker]

Interesting on the $1500. Is that 8x4 = 36 hours or it just took 4 days overall?

800 every four days is too little for me. I guess I could squeak by.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Interesting on the $1500. Is that 8x4 = 36 hours or it just took 4 days overall?

800 every four days is too little for me. I guess I could squeak by.

It was more like 40 hours if I include measuring, talking, designing, and shopping. The materials all came from Menards so I took a hit there. It was not great but I got to spend 4 days in the shop which is 30 feet from home.

Here is a snip of cabinet shops in our town. There are several more that have no web presence including the Amish. It is a competitive area, not far from Jack Duren's area.

518099

[Dave Sabo]

Custom in my business means fitting the walls. Not buying a big box cabinet and using fillers.

This is one of the most ridiculous notions perpetuated by old fashioned "cabinet guys" and "sales weasels". Any kind of cabinets from any source can be "fit to the walls". It's what you pay designers and installers to do with practically every set of cabinets from every source.

IF what you really mean is that custom contains no fillers, you are 100 % in error there. Fillers are NECESSARY in practically every design for functional reasons. Your mythical "custom" kitchen with no fillers is going to annoy people when they can't open their drawers because they hit the door or window casings. They are going to be annoyed that the knob or handle on their cabinet door dings or punctures their drywall. Or, they can't open their fridge because there isn't enough room between it and the wall. And don't tell us you just make your stiles wider to take care of it. That's just a filler by another name. Most "custom" guys are really just made to measure like most cabinet manufacturers. We can agree that the box stores aren't really the place for "custom" cabinets of any kind though.

True custom is whatever the customer wants; not what you build with no fillers. You may build the best framed cabinets in America, but ya ain't custom if you can't or won't build a frameless kitchen with slab fronts from high gloss laminate with zero glue line showing. Or layup sequential matched Masur Birch panels for an inset set of cabs, or produce a kitchen with matching Stainless Steel fronts on everything. Operations that can do that ain't working for $10/hr or even $45. Most everyone that thinks or says they're custom are really just "made to measure".


I’ve got 5 cabinet shops in a 10 mile radius. I had to price to compete with those shops.

Small minded mentality. That is simply a race to the bottom. You've got to differentiate yourself from a commodity. Even your lowest priced competitor could be outpriced by an out of town manuf. who's operation is more efficient.





How many plumber, electricians, and HVAC techs make $200,000 - $300,000 a year? Since we are talking about "a" plumber, electrician, or HVAC tech, can we assume this is net income to which you are referring?
Of course. It's the same as D. Prince's cabinet guy making $45 to $75 per hour ($90k-$150K/yr.) I'm merely pointing out my observation about that hourly rate not being as ludicrous as some of you may think.


A Plumber, Electrician, or HVAC Tech has to have certification to be legitimate.

So, the certification is the deciding factor in what a tradesman's time is worth ? Is the newly "certified" cabinet installer fresh outa school better than then the grizzled veteran of 15 yrs? Who would you expect to charge more ? And how about when Paul's Plumbing shows up at your place for a service call and it's the journeyman -or- apprentice is actually the one doing the work ? He's not as certified as Paul, nor is it his license on the line , but you're still getting charged Paul's high hourly rate. You're good with that but not with paying Cabinetman Chris 1/3 of that because he's not "certified" ? Um.....................ok.


If you want to create a company to do those jobs the expenses are huge.

Let's see. Independent Plumber has a truck, a home office, and a lot of hand tools along with an inventory of copper and pvc fittings. Put a number on it. Cabinet Guy has a truck, about the same # of hand tools, a small shop (rent), plus a big slider ($25-50k), shaper ($5-10k), an edgebander ($20-250k), Dust collection, Finishing booth,& sprayers, Line Borer, ect. ect... Put a number on that and tell us who you think has the most capital invested 9or general overhead) before they commit an hour of their billable time to your project ? And don't forget many cab shops keep a bit of raw material inventory lying around too, just like the plumber.

[John Kananis]

Fantastic summation, Dave. And I quoted because it's worth a second read.


This is one of the most ridiculous notions perpetuated by old fashioned "cabinet guys" and "sales weasels". Any kind of cabinets from any source can be "fit to the walls". It's what you pay designers and installers to do with practically every set of cabinets from every source.

IF what you really mean is that custom contains no fillers, you are 100 % in error there. Fillers are NECESSARY in practically every design for functional reasons. Your mythical "custom" kitchen with no fillers is going to annoy people when they can't open their drawers because they hit the door or window casings. They are going to be annoyed that the knob or handle on their cabinet door dings or punctures their drywall. Or, they can't open their fridge because there isn't enough room between it and the wall. And don't tell us you just make your stiles wider to take care of it. That's just a filler by another name. Most "custom" guys are really just made to measure like most cabinet manufacturers. We can agree that the box stores aren't really the place for "custom" cabinets of any kind though.

True custom is whatever the customer wants; not what you build with no fillers. You may build the best framed cabinets in America, but ya ain't custom if you can't or won't build a frameless kitchen with slab fronts from high gloss laminate with zero glue line showing. Or layup sequential matched Masur Birch panels for an inset set of cabs, or produce a kitchen with matching Stainless Steel fronts on everything. Operations that can do that ain't working for $10/hr or even $45. Most everyone that thinks or says they're custom are really just "made to measure".



Small minded mentality. That is simply a race to the bottom. You've got to differentiate yourself from a commodity. Even your lowest priced competitor could be outpriced by an out of town manuf. who's operation is more efficient.





Of course. It's the same as D. Prince's cabinet guy making $45 to $75 per hour ($90k-$150K/yr.) I'm merely pointing out my observation about that hourly rate not being as ludicrous as some of you may think.



So, the certification is the deciding factor in what a tradesman's time is worth ? Is the newly "certified" cabinet installer fresh outa school better than then the grizzled veteran of 15 yrs? Who would you expect to charge more ? And how about when Paul's Plumbing shows up at your place for a service call and it's the journeyman -or- apprentice is actually the one doing the work ? He's not as certified as Paul, nor is it his license on the line , but you're still getting charged Paul's high hourly rate. You're good with that but not with paying Cabinetman Chris 1/3 of that because he's not "certified" ? Um.....................ok.



Let's see. Independent Plumber has a truck, a home office, and a lot of hand tools along with an inventory of copper and pvc fittings. Put a number on it. Cabinet Guy has a truck, about the same # of hand tools, a small shop (rent), plus a big slider ($25-50k), shaper ($5-10k), an edgebander ($20-250k), Dust collection, Finishing booth,& sprayers, Line Borer, ect. ect... Put a number on that and tell us who you think has the most capital invested 9or general overhead) before they commit an hour of their billable time to your project ? And don't forget many cab shops keep a bit of raw material inventory lying around too, just like the plumber.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Back when I bothered to insure my business I took the courses and became certified for HVAC only to find that I could not afford the huge increase in my insurance premiums. I wanted to install Carrier, Amana, Ruud or Trane equipment. None of the makers of the better equipment will sell to a non dealer. To become a dealer requires a commitment to buy a minimum of $250,000 dollars in equipment a year. Only Goodman and a few online suppliers will sell to a guy with a van. Having a EPA 608 does not qualify a guy with a van to do plumbing, electrical, or HVAC in our town. You have to be a Plumber, an Electrician, or have a Master Mechanical certification.
I word of advice to any youngsters starting out in the trades. Be sure to get and keep formal documentation of all of your work experience. If you ever want to make journeyman or test for Master Mechanical you have to be able to prove your work experience.

[Warren Lake]

old guy suggested I get my papers in case I ever want to teach so I did. Now you cant teach unless you have degrees. Irony neither could he which is pathetic.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Several of the instructors at the career center in our town do not have degrees. Including the gentleman who taught the 608 class I took there.