chipbreaker and blade options

[Josh Rudolph]

Hello,

I am in the process of buying a Stanley 7C Type 16 from a fellow creeker. It does not come with a blade or chipbreaker.

I am looking to set this plane up to use with building my bench when I get around to it and for flattening large panels.

So I have been reading and participated (once) in the ever popular IBC offering threads on here and figured I would bring this out to its own thread.

I would really like to talk about the characteristics of the available choices. Hock, LV, LN, IBC, any others, etc...

For example...is a cryo treated blade really an improvement I shouldn't be without. For a jointer should I get an A2 or O1 blade, should it be cryo treated? Since I am not an exclusive hand tool user and the plane may sit for some time, should I look into a coated blade? I wax and oil my tools and do not have rust problems, would it be any different with these premium offerings? Any other truely technical characteristics that may be of importance.

Since it will be asked I use sandpaper (quick removal) waterstones for sharpening.

I really hope this doesn't turn into the other threads as that is not its intent.

Thanks,
Josh

[David Weaver]

Any of them would be fine. Don't worry about cryo or not-cryo treated. IF you weren't counting strokes, I doubt you'd ever notice a difference.

The hock blade and chipbreaker would be my choice because they're the cheapest.

If you are completely uncomfortable with setting up an iron and chipbreaker, it may be worth the extra money for the IBC, but you may get stuck filing a mouth, which is something you can't undo on a decent plane.

I don't like to do it on desirable types - it ruins the value.

Regardless of what anyone says about vacuum heat treat this or that, you'll likely find out that the first grind of the blade sees chipout occurring faster than you'd like. After you get a grind or two in, that goes away.

[Joel Goodman]

I would also consider the TWW Ray Isles carbon steel iron from Tools for Working Wood which is almost 1/8th thick. It is slightly concave on the back side and flattened really easily -- see their website for explanation. But you'll probably have to open the mouth up with an auger file. If you want a .095 iron, Hock, LN, and LV are all good. Craftsman Studio has the Hock on discount. The Hock chipbreaker fits Stanleys or perhaps someone here has an extra Stanley chipbreaker that you could have.

[Jim Koepke]

It really depends on what you are willing to spend and how much work you want to do. If you do not mind a bit of extra work and want to save money, then buy an old Stanley blade and chip breaker through ebay.

Otherwise, my experience with Hock blades and chip breakers has been good and I have no reservations about recommending them.

I can not speak for any others since I have not used any other blades in my Stanley/Bailey planes. My feeling is the quality is similar.

jim

[Tri Hoang]

The finish on the LN chip breaker is very nice, better than Hock's. For the blade, I'd recommend either a Hock or LN blade. The Hock blade should fit nicely into an old Bailey without the need to filed the mouth. The LN #7 blade (.140") is thicker and would probably require you to file the mouth. If you decide to go with the LN #7 blade, don't forget to order a new yoke from them as you'll need it to use the thick blade. I've used mostly A2 blades but O1 is probably OK. Since you have to buy a set of blade/chip breaker, it's false economy get an old set of Stanley blade/chip breaker.

Performance-wise, there's little different between the two. Anti-rust coating, demagnetized...are superfluous. Just dry the blade & coat it with a little vegetable oil.

[Russell Sansom]

One thing about ebay blades I feel is not emphasized enough: A blade that is even slightly pitted or moderately rusted on the back can take an awful lot of work to flatten and finish. Not to mention needing a pretty good set of stones ranging from very coarse all the way up. Consider whether you have the time, finger strength, and hardware and do the math. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy a perfect blade in the first place.
I believe all of the big name blade makers these days use lapping machines. With the flat back taken care of, you're free to spend your time on sharpening.

[Jim Koepke]

LN sells replacement blades that are not as thick as the blades used on their own planes. There are a few caveats about their chip breakers.

Another thought came to mind, stanleytoolparts dot com also sells replacement blades. The blade and chip breaker for a #7 is priced at $17.50 plus shipping.

jim

[Tom Henderson2]

I've seen the IBC blade/chipbreaker sets; they are very nicely finished and look like awesome blades. I can't testify to the edge quality/durability, but considering their pedigree, I'm sure they will be fine.

Hock blades are marvelous, and relatively cheap, but do require a bit of flattening when you get them. So how much is your time worth?

If you can swing the cost, and don't mind filing the mouth, I'd wager that the IBC will give you the best performance.

If the cost or filing are an issue, next best would probably be an LV blade with a Hock or LN chipbreaker.

A Hock blade with a Stanley chipbreaker would be cheaper yet and still give you good performance. A WTB in the classifieds would probably get you a chipbreaker for not much money.

Old Stanley blades can be difficult to flatten and are often pitted. Some have good edge properties, some don't. New Stanley blades are junk. So I'd leave these options off of your list unless finances are really strained.

As my dad used to say, "Pay your money and take your choice!"

-TH

[Josh Rudolph]

Well in my process of narrowing things down I believe I have it narrowed down to 2 options.

Hock A2 and Chipbreaker from Craftsman Studio for $64.50. (No state tax and free shipping)
or
IBC combo A2 and O1 Chipbreaker from Woodcraft for $104.99 (add state tax and shipping - $18.90, so a grand total of $123.89 almost double my cost of the Hock setup)

If the prices were the same, I would go with the IBC just to try it.

Funny...just me typing this has made me decide to go with the Hock setup, I would be $180+ vested into the plane with the IBC setup. If I was that much vested I would be disappointed in not buying new. Maybe the IBC combo will go on sale or be offered at a comparable price to all of is competitors eventually.

[Tri Hoang]

Funny...just me typing this has made me decide to go with the Hock setup, I would be $180+ vested into the plane with the IBC setup. If I was that much vested I would be disappointed in not buying new. Maybe the IBC combo will go on sale or be offered at a comparable price to all of is competitors eventually.

:rolleyes: There is no such thing as a $20 Lie Nielsen, isn't it. You can get the LN chip breaker from the same place at the same cost & the finish is nicer.

[Josh Rudolph]

Thanks Tri, I must have overlooked that.

And no, there is no $20 LN. I can't even find a decent $50 LN other than here.

Thanks

[James Scheffler]

:rolleyes: You can get the LN chip breaker from the same place at the same cost & the finish is nicer.

Yes, but the LN chipbreaker may or may not work in an old Stanley. The adjuster slot might not be in quite the right place. The Hock should be fine.

Can anyone verify that the LN chipbreaker will work in this plane?

Jim S.

[Tri Hoang]

Perhaps I'm lucky but I got a least 3 LN chip breakers in old Stanleys #7, #5, and #4. They all work without any issue.

[Sam Takeuchi]

LN improved cap iron works on my Stanley #7, type 9 and 11 at least without problem whatsoever.

[David Weaver]

I had trouble with a type 8 chipbreaker. Led to a whole musical chairs thing with LN, but they ended up swapping me for the standard one and giving me a custom sized one at no extra charge.

They don't do that any longer, I couldn't figure out why they did then - it was nice of them, but a lot of work and not sustainable if everyone and their brother was going to be sending their original chipbreakers to LN to have them copy the hole locations on them.

As for the comment above about the hock chipbreaker being not as nice as the LN one, that is a bit confusing to me. Neither is hardened, and the hock is actually quicker to set up - you just hone the front edge of it if anything at all, and not even that if it's not going to be functionally breaking chips.

I like LN's irons a little better than hocks (but they do cost more), but the hock chipbreakers better.

Actually, I guess I have no preference on iron brand at all since putting together a blade holder to do the initial flattening, but i liked the LNs a little better when I did do it just with fingers.

If anyone gets an appreciable number of older planes, or even a lot of new ones, you owe it to yourself to spend $3 and make a blade holder. Just cut two handles onto the end of a piece of 2x4, and put two bolts with head sizes between the hole at the end of the slot on the chipbreaker and the slot size, and you can really bear down while flattening an iron and cut the time it takes to do it by a factor of 5.

[Rob Fisher]

...If anyone gets an appreciable number of older planes, or even a lot of new ones, you owe it to yourself to spend $3 and make a blade holder. Just cut two handles onto the end of a piece of 2x4, and put two bolts with head sizes between the hole at the end of the slot on the chipbreaker and the slot size, and you can really bear down while flattening an iron and cut the time it takes to do it by a factor of 5.

Ow, owww, owww...got a picture of this? :)

Rob

[David Weaver]

Cheap and nasty as you can make it, it's just going to get covered with black stuff, anyway. Just make sure the wood you use is dry and flat so it doesn't flex the iron.

If you had a want to do irons that didn't have a slot, a couple of pieces of hose clamp and a wooden wedge would hold the iron very tightly to the wood.

I find myself with my hands above the iron in the middle of the holder more than on the handles. It may not even be necessary to have the handles, it's just something to hold on to so you can really put pressure on the iron without having it be tippy and without dealing with two-sided tape and a block.
No more standing over the sink scrubbing out my fingernails or dealing with tips of fingers that the stone wore the skin off of without me noticing.

[Tri Hoang]

Cheap and nasty as you can make it, it's just going to get covered with black stuff, anyway. Just make sure the wood you use is dry and flat so it doesn't flex the iron.

If you had a want to do irons that didn't have a slot, a couple of pieces of hose clamp and a wooden wedge would hold the iron very tightly to the wood.

I find myself with my hands above the iron in the middle of the holder more than on the handles. It may not even be necessary to have the handles, it's just something to hold on to so you can really put pressure on the iron without having it be tippy and without dealing with two-sided tape and a block.
No more standing over the sink scrubbing out my fingernails or dealing with tips of fingers that the stone wore the skin off of without me noticing.

Excellent idea, thank you for sharing.

[Terry Beadle]

I bought a Clifton HSS blade from Highland Hardware with the Clifton Stay Set chip breaker and installed it in my Record 07. I couldn't be happier. It really takes a great edge and it holds up very well in use.

I've also got LN blades, HNT Gordon, Galoot Tools, Steve Knight and Hock. They all work great. I'm not able to tell any difference between any of the blades for the type of work that I do except for really tough wood. For that problem, I use my Japanese kana smoother. It just doesn't quit when you have a really tough bit of babinga or cocobolo to finish.

I haven't had any experience with IBC ....except the IBC Root Beer, which I highly recommend !

Enjoy the shavings.

[David Weaver]

Excellent idea, thank you for sharing.

It's more or less courtesy of the japanese.

They still finish the back side of a kanna by hand after it's hollow ground (at least from what I've seen), and I saw a video of a blacksmith flattening the back of a kanna with one more like I described for an iron without a slot, albeit a little more nicely done.

I use mine on a kanaban strapped to a block of wood with loose 100 diamond grit that I got off of ebay for cheap, and I go from there to bester (1200) and shapton stones (5000, 15000) epoxied to kingwood blocks so I can press as hard as I can manage. You can get away with the big jump from 100 to 1200 because of the rate you can cut with good pressure.

A new hock iron takes about five minutes plus the time it takes me to walk the shaptons over to the sink and flatten and rinse them (another two minutes).

The real benefit is on old blades like old woody blades that are pitted or bellied - the kinds of things you'd throw out if you tried to do them with finger pressure only. It may take a half an hour or so to do one of those (the worst ones), but some of the old laminated irons are super hard. They're worth the effort once you put them back into an old woody - the steel is really nice.

[Jim Koepke]

Cheap and nasty as you can make it, it's just going to get covered with black stuff, anyway. Just make sure the wood you use is dry and flat so it doesn't flex the iron.

If you had a want to do irons that didn't have a slot, a couple of pieces of hose clamp and a wooden wedge would hold the iron very tightly to the wood.

I find myself with my hands above the iron in the middle of the holder more than on the handles. It may not even be necessary to have the handles, it's just something to hold on to so you can really put pressure on the iron without having it be tippy and without dealing with two-sided tape and a block.

Great idea, thanks for the pictures.



No more standing over the sink scrubbing out my fingernails or dealing with tips of fingers that the stone wore the skin off of without me noticing.

Wasn't that covered in "Hand Planing and the Zen of Edged Tool Maintenance"?:D

jim

[Rob Fisher]

Cheap and nasty as you can make it, it's just going to get covered with black stuff, anyway. Just make sure the wood you use is dry and flat so it doesn't flex the iron.

If you had a want to do irons that didn't have a slot, a couple of pieces of hose clamp and a wooden wedge would hold the iron very tightly to the wood.

I find myself with my hands above the iron in the middle of the holder more than on the handles. It may not even be necessary to have the handles, it's just something to hold on to so you can really put pressure on the iron without having it be tippy and without dealing with two-sided tape and a block.
No more standing over the sink scrubbing out my fingernails or dealing with tips of fingers that the stone wore the skin off of without me noticing.

Awesome, the visual helps a ton, thanks.

Rob

[Josh Rudolph]

Perhaps I'm lucky but I got a least 3 LN chip breakers in old Stanleys #7, #5, and #4. They all work without any issue.

Tri,

Did you just get the standard Lie-Nielsen Improved Chipbreaker - 2-3/8 inch and 2" for your 4, 5, and 7? The one's listed as $30 and $25 on CS?

Thanks,
Josh

[Tom Henderson2]

A small piece of wood attached to the blade with double-sided tape makes a great handle too... and avoids any issues with tipping the blade that you might have with a long handle.

A magnetic base, as is often used with dial indicators, works great too. Some object to the way the swarf is magnetized, but it hasn't been a problem in my (limited) experience.

Lots of ways to skin this cat.

But I know if I used a long handle as has been shown here I'd have tipping problems for sure.

-TH

[Tri Hoang]

Tri,

Did you just get the standard Lie-Nielsen Improved Chipbreaker - 2-3/8 inch and 2" for your 4, 5, and 7? The one's listed as $30 and $25 on CS?

Thanks,
Josh

Yes...the standard ones. The Hock chip breaker has a slight bent to the whole body while the LN chip breaker has a clearly machine 'lip' at a slight angle ~10-12*. Compared those two side-by-side, I feel the LN is a better one, mostly on cosmetic.

[David Weaver]

A small piece of wood attached to the blade with double-sided tape makes a great handle too... and avoids any issues with tipping the blade that you might have with a long handle.

A magnetic base, as is often used with dial indicators, works great too. Some object to the way the swarf is magnetized, but it hasn't been a problem in my (limited) experience.

Lots of ways to skin this cat.

But I know if I used a long handle as has been shown here I'd have tipping problems for sure.

-TH

Actually, the tipping is about the same. I used double stick tape for a little while, but this works miles better. if you get to the point that you're tipping the iron, you just grip closer to the center inside of the handles, or skew the blade a little. The fact that you can get both hands on the holder on either side of the iron lets you really put a lot more pressure on it, and you can feel if you're having tipping issues, and adjust what you're doing.

Not a big deal if you're only doing one or two new irons, but if you do a lot of new ones or some old really beat ones, it's worth using two hands - you can basically go until your triceps are blown out.